Meloz and 89
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Kaptin M,
Pilots in the former AN were indeed paid by the hour with the only guarantee being 55 per month. One could count on the fingers of one hand the number who didn't fly 55 per month, and that was one the fingers of one hand over a year. There were no 2 for 1, or minimum 4 stick hour guarantees as prior.
Others have canvassed these principles with you over a number of years, but you don't seem to get it.
The no reserve comment deserves no comment, but 'll say it again anyway, in small words with big letters if necessary - there was no reserve coverage, and no provision in the rostering. Difficult to do when the average block was 75 - 80 hours, compared with pre 89 30 - 40 hours, and reserve coverage provision!
When one was called out on a non allocated flying day, the same hourly rate applied as the blocked paid hours. For an A320 Capt in 2001, that was about $230 per hour. One can easily see that if it was a MEL - ADL - DRW - ASP - ADL - PAX MEL day, then the reward was considerable, but no more considerable than if it was blocked; in fact, exactly the same. I'll put you out of your misery - it was a $2K day.
It is unfortunate that I no longer have a copy of the contract or I'd courier it to the Land of the Rising Sun for you to peruse.
As for scabs not getting jobs, there are over 300 former AN jocks now in jobs round the world. A considerable number of those are pre 89 pilots. They're getting jobs in companies nominated in this thread as those who would never take pre 89 guys. I believe the recruiting person in a middle eastern airline has been replaced because of his petty prejudices and overlooking qualified pilots who didn't fit into his idealistic world. What a shame.
You see, what you see as scabbing, many employers see as loyalty to the company. Personally, I don't see it that way, rather it was self preservation, but there are many who would employ a scab because he is not going to go for some tragic ideology espoused by a union type with his head up his ar$e, and who hasn't taken account of reality. SQ will continue to do so regardless of what you say. Quite a few working in Japan too, and I recall reading a post of yours some time ago that said that no scabs would ever be employed in Japan. Seems like the employers are indeed forgetting about 89, if they ever knew, or just couldn't give a $hit. The latter I think.
Even QF long haul is taking former AN pilots by the boxful, and didn't they support the cause in 89? Of course they did, flying over domestic routes in 747s carrying domestic passengers. That's real support for the cause.
If we follow the cock eyed KM logic, then QF short haul is next, and they won't be able to find jobs anywhere in the world either because they scabbed. Give me a break!
In one breath you guys say that the airline industry around the world will never forget 89, but in another, you note that Australian aviation is $hit, and nobody knows or cares about it. Make up your minds fellas. There's a real credibility problem.
I find it difficult when you say former AN pilots bragged about their incomes when you do exactly the same. I suppose it's just another example of the hypocrisy of displayed by you types. Be that as it may, I am now very, very rich, and I tell you unashamedly.
TTT,
You're right, there were the 'Go get 'em Brian' types who scabbed, but at the top of the list were the wine merchant and the first female pilot. The only difference there is that they weren't accepted. I bet she regretted being used as a pan by the AFAP. As for me, I voted 'NO' from day 1, and my friends knew it. What a lost cause it was - badly conceived and badly executed.
WixofOz,
I like your style son. Take it to them, and if you need some support, I'll be with you in the trench.
Wiley,
I don't look forward 'with great anticipation' to meeting anyone from the industry, but I've always been happy when I run into those of whom you speak. I have never turned away, have always extended my hand, been friendly towards them, and genuinely interested in how they're getting along; some, the more mature amongst them, have reciprocated, others have hurled abuse, and as you can imagine that did me a lot of harm; so much harm, in fact, that I pi$$ed myself laughing at them.
You see, by acting in that manner, they don't harm me; they harm themselves. They're being eaten up by hatred, but more importantly, they're being eaten up by envy, for they realize they made the wrong decision and f&%$#d their lives.
Back into the trench, and waiting for the firing to start.
Pilots in the former AN were indeed paid by the hour with the only guarantee being 55 per month. One could count on the fingers of one hand the number who didn't fly 55 per month, and that was one the fingers of one hand over a year. There were no 2 for 1, or minimum 4 stick hour guarantees as prior.
Others have canvassed these principles with you over a number of years, but you don't seem to get it.
The no reserve comment deserves no comment, but 'll say it again anyway, in small words with big letters if necessary - there was no reserve coverage, and no provision in the rostering. Difficult to do when the average block was 75 - 80 hours, compared with pre 89 30 - 40 hours, and reserve coverage provision!
When one was called out on a non allocated flying day, the same hourly rate applied as the blocked paid hours. For an A320 Capt in 2001, that was about $230 per hour. One can easily see that if it was a MEL - ADL - DRW - ASP - ADL - PAX MEL day, then the reward was considerable, but no more considerable than if it was blocked; in fact, exactly the same. I'll put you out of your misery - it was a $2K day.
It is unfortunate that I no longer have a copy of the contract or I'd courier it to the Land of the Rising Sun for you to peruse.
As for scabs not getting jobs, there are over 300 former AN jocks now in jobs round the world. A considerable number of those are pre 89 pilots. They're getting jobs in companies nominated in this thread as those who would never take pre 89 guys. I believe the recruiting person in a middle eastern airline has been replaced because of his petty prejudices and overlooking qualified pilots who didn't fit into his idealistic world. What a shame.
You see, what you see as scabbing, many employers see as loyalty to the company. Personally, I don't see it that way, rather it was self preservation, but there are many who would employ a scab because he is not going to go for some tragic ideology espoused by a union type with his head up his ar$e, and who hasn't taken account of reality. SQ will continue to do so regardless of what you say. Quite a few working in Japan too, and I recall reading a post of yours some time ago that said that no scabs would ever be employed in Japan. Seems like the employers are indeed forgetting about 89, if they ever knew, or just couldn't give a $hit. The latter I think.
Even QF long haul is taking former AN pilots by the boxful, and didn't they support the cause in 89? Of course they did, flying over domestic routes in 747s carrying domestic passengers. That's real support for the cause.
If we follow the cock eyed KM logic, then QF short haul is next, and they won't be able to find jobs anywhere in the world either because they scabbed. Give me a break!
In one breath you guys say that the airline industry around the world will never forget 89, but in another, you note that Australian aviation is $hit, and nobody knows or cares about it. Make up your minds fellas. There's a real credibility problem.
I find it difficult when you say former AN pilots bragged about their incomes when you do exactly the same. I suppose it's just another example of the hypocrisy of displayed by you types. Be that as it may, I am now very, very rich, and I tell you unashamedly.
TTT,
You're right, there were the 'Go get 'em Brian' types who scabbed, but at the top of the list were the wine merchant and the first female pilot. The only difference there is that they weren't accepted. I bet she regretted being used as a pan by the AFAP. As for me, I voted 'NO' from day 1, and my friends knew it. What a lost cause it was - badly conceived and badly executed.
WixofOz,
I like your style son. Take it to them, and if you need some support, I'll be with you in the trench.
Wiley,
I don't look forward 'with great anticipation' to meeting anyone from the industry, but I've always been happy when I run into those of whom you speak. I have never turned away, have always extended my hand, been friendly towards them, and genuinely interested in how they're getting along; some, the more mature amongst them, have reciprocated, others have hurled abuse, and as you can imagine that did me a lot of harm; so much harm, in fact, that I pi$$ed myself laughing at them.
You see, by acting in that manner, they don't harm me; they harm themselves. They're being eaten up by hatred, but more importantly, they're being eaten up by envy, for they realize they made the wrong decision and f&%$#d their lives.
Back into the trench, and waiting for the firing to start.
Last edited by CitizenXX; 20th Sep 2002 at 07:50.
Moderate, Modest & Mild.
and I recall reading a post of yours some time ago that said that no scabs would ever be employed in Japan.
"The no reserve comment deserves no comment, but 'll say it again anyway, in small words with big letters if necessary - there was no reserve coverage..............When one was called out on a non allocated flying day..
As I said, calll them whatever you like, "grey days, golliwog days, "non-allocated flying days" "
they were scheduled in to give operations coverage if required in the event of crew or aircraft incapacitation.
You see, what you see as scabbing, many employers see as loyalty to the company.
In the main, the only loyalty the majority of "crawlback scabs" had was loyalty to the $$$'s and the opportunity to grab some rapid promotion for which they wouldn't have qualified under the existing seniority system.
I doubt that anyone ever said NO scab would find work outside Oz - the way you lot are willing to backstab and tread over each other is on record, and confirmed through several other ex-Ansett pilots who post here regularly.
"SQ will continue to do so regardless of what you say." Quite correct, however I understand that the relative few there now are it - regardless of what others may have been told.
I find it difficult when you say former AN pilots bragged about their incomes when you do exactly the same. I suppose it's just another example of the hypocrisy of displayed by you types.
Despicable and selfish and greedy would be adjectives far more apt than your hollow "self preservation" boast.
Self preservation are the words that can HONESTLY be claimed by all of those 1300 men and women you KNOWINGLY attempted to feed to the wolves when you "went back". BTW, CitizenXX, what "excuse" do YOU feed to the pilots with whom you flew as you attempted to justify YOUR return? Or were you honest, and told them that the money was just too good to refuse?
Be that as it may, I am now very, very rich, and I tell you unashamedly
Personally speaking, I can't make that same boast, however I have a great family, am satisfied that I have got to where I am based on genuine hard work and the KNOWLEDGE that I can look ANY pilot, ANYWHERE, in the eye, extend my hand and KNOW that the gesture will be returned.
YOU can't.
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If "Rice Balls" is who I think it is, an ex APA President, then I should think that he would be very happy with his grey hair. Because in all the time that I flew with him he had none at all!!
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Well, it has all been covered before but because Kaptin M seems to suffer from an extremely flat learning curve if not an inverse one here we go again!
It was ALL about money but the AFAP did not want to address Productivity improvements.
The AFAP set out on a course in the belief that their "king hit" resignation strategy would achieve victory so they purposely entrapped their members into resigning.
Any person who, in the clear light of the following day, did not realise that the companies had been handed a loaded gun was not in possession of his faculties. Most probably most realised the folly but decided to hang on in the desperate hope that reason would prevail. It is understandable that they could not bring hemselves to believe that tha AFAP could be so arrogant and incompetent.
The reality was that, however unfortunate the fact, right then and there, they had severed all links with their employers and had just surrendered every aspect of seniority and award conditions. In any case the AFAP, by it's behaviour at the IRC, had caused the awards to be cancelled as part of the "strategy". Not only that thy had wiped out the superannuation benefits of pilots with less than ten years service.........a gift to the companies which TN admitted amounted to $50 million and I guess AN was similar. It was never going to be the same again. They had given the employers a clean slate
So the employers advertised for pilots, locally to start with, and then overseas when the AFAP held their pilots back in the belief that sufficient pilots were not available. The reality was that there was no shortage of pilots. Not only that but the AFAP had chosen the northern winter for the exercise just when there was a surplus of aircraft and crews able to be deployed to Australia. The companies would have much preferred to get their crews back but with the productivity improvements did not require so many. It is often said by Kap M that if everyone to man had stayed out that the AFAP would have won. The reality is that not one AFAP pilot would have got back because the positions would have all been filled from other sources. Meanwhile AFAP pilots pushed aside GA pilots while remonstrating with them not to apply to the airlines. As well, they competed with pilots overseas for positions while reserving their places back in Australia. It was simply not going to happen! By the time the AFAP released their pilots all positions had been filled and promotion from that point was from within the existing pool, that is no Direct entry Captains.
I doubt very much the stories about AFAP members interfering with aircraft cockpits. However many 89ers did find themselves rostered by their new employers at the AN Simulator Centre and did take the odd liberty there.Harassment was very much from the 89er's side including physical assault, property damage, obscene and abusive phone calls both at home and overnight stops to disrupt. rest periods etc Nasty things like concocted stories to wives about "girlfrieds"........Some true!...pornographic videos ordered and sent to home addresses and the old favouriteof sending a prostitute to hotel rooms in the middle of the night to disrupt rest. Ho hum!
What can I say? Kap M's money figures are hilarious! He was given the true figures years ago but the fantasy persists. If he believes all the boasts of the crew room "Financial Rambos"
about their massive wealth he will believe anything. Most of those guys also have massive debt, so serves them right, but a few of the "silent" ones have done allright. The fact that Kap M trumpets his wealth so energetically gives one pause for thought.
Anyhow, it has all been covered before........bedtime for me...Bye
It was ALL about money but the AFAP did not want to address Productivity improvements.
The AFAP set out on a course in the belief that their "king hit" resignation strategy would achieve victory so they purposely entrapped their members into resigning.
Any person who, in the clear light of the following day, did not realise that the companies had been handed a loaded gun was not in possession of his faculties. Most probably most realised the folly but decided to hang on in the desperate hope that reason would prevail. It is understandable that they could not bring hemselves to believe that tha AFAP could be so arrogant and incompetent.
The reality was that, however unfortunate the fact, right then and there, they had severed all links with their employers and had just surrendered every aspect of seniority and award conditions. In any case the AFAP, by it's behaviour at the IRC, had caused the awards to be cancelled as part of the "strategy". Not only that thy had wiped out the superannuation benefits of pilots with less than ten years service.........a gift to the companies which TN admitted amounted to $50 million and I guess AN was similar. It was never going to be the same again. They had given the employers a clean slate
So the employers advertised for pilots, locally to start with, and then overseas when the AFAP held their pilots back in the belief that sufficient pilots were not available. The reality was that there was no shortage of pilots. Not only that but the AFAP had chosen the northern winter for the exercise just when there was a surplus of aircraft and crews able to be deployed to Australia. The companies would have much preferred to get their crews back but with the productivity improvements did not require so many. It is often said by Kap M that if everyone to man had stayed out that the AFAP would have won. The reality is that not one AFAP pilot would have got back because the positions would have all been filled from other sources. Meanwhile AFAP pilots pushed aside GA pilots while remonstrating with them not to apply to the airlines. As well, they competed with pilots overseas for positions while reserving their places back in Australia. It was simply not going to happen! By the time the AFAP released their pilots all positions had been filled and promotion from that point was from within the existing pool, that is no Direct entry Captains.
I doubt very much the stories about AFAP members interfering with aircraft cockpits. However many 89ers did find themselves rostered by their new employers at the AN Simulator Centre and did take the odd liberty there.Harassment was very much from the 89er's side including physical assault, property damage, obscene and abusive phone calls both at home and overnight stops to disrupt. rest periods etc Nasty things like concocted stories to wives about "girlfrieds"........Some true!...pornographic videos ordered and sent to home addresses and the old favouriteof sending a prostitute to hotel rooms in the middle of the night to disrupt rest. Ho hum!
What can I say? Kap M's money figures are hilarious! He was given the true figures years ago but the fantasy persists. If he believes all the boasts of the crew room "Financial Rambos"
about their massive wealth he will believe anything. Most of those guys also have massive debt, so serves them right, but a few of the "silent" ones have done allright. The fact that Kap M trumpets his wealth so energetically gives one pause for thought.
Anyhow, it has all been covered before........bedtime for me...Bye
Last edited by Flat Side Up; 20th Sep 2002 at 10:37.
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Wrong about SQ again KM, Next lot start in early Nov. Sorry your information is confused with emotions and hatred. Keep to the facts, just the facts instead of raving on.
You really can't accept the no reserve bit can you? Just because in your days with AN no one allowed themselves to be available on G days or days off means that others were as pig headed as your lot. There used to be G days and days off in the blocks that you flew too but just imagine trying to get you to work. Beer and cornflakes was the standard breakfast in those days.
I can actually remember a certain FO who tried to do his reserve duty from a location in NSW well outside the 120 min call out time without informing his employer. Got away with it until one day when he was needed in a hurry. Amazing what you could get away with in the days when the company was operated with a gun held at its head by the AFAP. Wonder what would happen if the same person tried that with their present employer without the AFAP to keep their job?
You really can't accept the no reserve bit can you? Just because in your days with AN no one allowed themselves to be available on G days or days off means that others were as pig headed as your lot. There used to be G days and days off in the blocks that you flew too but just imagine trying to get you to work. Beer and cornflakes was the standard breakfast in those days.
I can actually remember a certain FO who tried to do his reserve duty from a location in NSW well outside the 120 min call out time without informing his employer. Got away with it until one day when he was needed in a hurry. Amazing what you could get away with in the days when the company was operated with a gun held at its head by the AFAP. Wonder what would happen if the same person tried that with their present employer without the AFAP to keep their job?
Moderate, Modest & Mild.
Get over it, PV, I don't waste my energy running on "confusion and hatred". I don't HATE the scabs, I merely have a contempt for them both professionally and as (temporary) life-sustaining mammals. As with any group of living organisms, not all "make the grade" and as such need to be culled from the rest so as not to pass on their undesirable characteristics.
That is the light in which I see scab pilots in professional aviation.
So let's wait until early November and see what happens.
No, I really can't! You must be doing more than just vaulting with your pole if you honestly believe that a major airline can exist without having crews available to call upon when things go p.s.
But then again, Ansett DOESN'T exist - does it!
From what I have read here on PPRuNe, the post '89 AN pilots didn't have to make themselves available on their "golliwog days" nor their days off, either. But by the same token, pre dispute, had someone been called out and had had a beer (or 3, as was the case with the "returnee" at the bbq, I hear) he would have been responsible enough to have advised crewing of the case, rather than have flown ILLEGALLY.
Yes I CAN imagine it, because it happened REGULARLY (flying on "G" days). Grey days were precisely that - they were days that were not "Off" and were available for the company to utilise if they wished.
"Beer and cornflakes for breakfast" Slightly emotive there aren't we PV
I also knew of a couple of pilots (in Brisbane) - one was the Qld agent for Robinson helicopters, and later a Noosa restrauteur...this guy used to bid reserve and then trip off to the USA to pickup spares, and would call crewing from the States (but told them he was at home in Oz) asking if there was any requirement for him to stand reserve the following day, and could he be released. This same guy tried to "smuggle" a mate of his onboard an F27 by hiding him in the rear toilet , only to be discovered by an F/A.
The second was sent to BNE after having his job saved by the Feds, during a basing in CNS. Because of his "juniority" he was assigned Reserve most months - or he bid it - so that he could fly Navajos on G.A. charter work out of Archerfield...naturally without the permission or knowledge of Ansett. He's better known to all as "Storm Boy" (and "Captain America")
And so where did these IRRESPONSIBLES end up?
As SCABS.
And early ones at that!
FSU, you boys REALLY need to talk with each other a little more.
3 Holer states in a couple of posts before your's;
"I recall Brian McCarthy early in the 9 to 5 campaign stating to a journalist "We (AFAP) wish to negotiate with the Companies. We are prepared for some productivity trade offs under our present awards..."
but you contradict him with the "scabs' version", by writing,
"It was ALL about money but the AFAP did not want to address Productivity improvements. "
Part of the ambit log of claims served on the companies included a salary increase, however as YOU are well aware the SOLE REASON for the dispute was the refusal of the companies to allow the pilots to be represented by the AFAP.
The Dispute was ONLY about money in the minds of the SCABS - because THAT (and the rapid promotion) was the reason they were eager to sell themselves and their (lack of) principles to the highest bidder.
And being solely money-oriented (as is CitizenXX) that is the shallow depth to which you (and the other 22%) are limited in NOT understanding what was a MORAL issue that challenged the fibre of each and every person involved - not only the pilots!
That is the light in which I see scab pilots in professional aviation.
So let's wait until early November and see what happens.
You really can't accept the no reserve bit can you?
But then again, Ansett DOESN'T exist - does it!
Just because in your days with AN no one allowed themselves to be available on G days or days off means that others were as pig headed as your lot.
There used to be G days and days off in the blocks that you flew too but just imagine trying to get you to work
"Beer and cornflakes for breakfast"
Slightly emotive there aren't we PV
I can actually remember a certain FO who tried to do his reserve duty from a location in NSW well outside the 120 min call out time without informing his employer. Got away with it until one day when he was needed in a hurry. Amazing what you could get away with in the days when the company was operated with a gun held at its head by the AFAP. Wonder what would happen if the same person tried that with their present employer without the AFAP to keep their job?
The second was sent to BNE after having his job saved by the Feds, during a basing in CNS. Because of his "juniority" he was assigned Reserve most months - or he bid it - so that he could fly Navajos on G.A. charter work out of Archerfield...naturally without the permission or knowledge of Ansett. He's better known to all as "Storm Boy" (and "Captain America")
And so where did these IRRESPONSIBLES end up?
As SCABS.
And early ones at that!
FSU, you boys REALLY need to talk with each other a little more.
3 Holer states in a couple of posts before your's;
"I recall Brian McCarthy early in the 9 to 5 campaign stating to a journalist "We (AFAP) wish to negotiate with the Companies. We are prepared for some productivity trade offs under our present awards..."
but you contradict him with the "scabs' version", by writing,
"It was ALL about money but the AFAP did not want to address Productivity improvements. "
Part of the ambit log of claims served on the companies included a salary increase, however as YOU are well aware the SOLE REASON for the dispute was the refusal of the companies to allow the pilots to be represented by the AFAP.
The Dispute was ONLY about money in the minds of the SCABS - because THAT (and the rapid promotion) was the reason they were eager to sell themselves and their (lack of) principles to the highest bidder.
And being solely money-oriented (as is CitizenXX) that is the shallow depth to which you (and the other 22%) are limited in NOT understanding what was a MORAL issue that challenged the fibre of each and every person involved - not only the pilots!
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Wizof - yes, there is a difference, and it is that we 89er's and the AFAP didn't send AN/TN/IPEC/EWA to the wall. Neither did the pay you scabs received. But the fact can now be appreciated by all, that had the companies negotiated with McCarthy et al, the outcome would have been a better and more radical contract since 1966, with benefits for all - not just for you scabs.
It is a documented fact, and I suggest you peruse the archives of the day, that numerous times during the first few weeks of the dispute, that McCarthy was quoted as saying that we would negotiate ALL aspects including pay, productivity, and conditions.
Selective memories won't wash I'm afraid.
You cannot escape the fact, that along with PV, FSU, Citszz and sores, you have to remain defendant of your actions for the remainder of your life, and that is because 89er's exist.
It is interesting now to also note, that there are more contributors to the posts on this subject, than may have been the case a couple of years back. Not because you now don't have cockpit support is it?
FSU, the resignation aspect has already been addressed, and your "loaded gun" contribution is nonsense. The course of the dispute was far longer than Abeles had anticipated, but he had Hawke by the scrotal skin, because Hawke had already committed himself to the "war", which also meant as long as would take, at taxpayer expense. And the only way they could win it, was not because of foreign scabs, but because of you and the other scabs and sores skulking back.
As for voting "NO", then I assume when you vote for the Natasha Stott the Sponger, and she doesn't win, then you don't accept the democratic verdict. Oh - right - different principle. The hell it is!
One thing about scabs, they all like to project how courageous they were in scabbing. It is a courage which collapses with a gentle wind from the likes of Abeles.
Keep it coming boys.
It is a documented fact, and I suggest you peruse the archives of the day, that numerous times during the first few weeks of the dispute, that McCarthy was quoted as saying that we would negotiate ALL aspects including pay, productivity, and conditions.
Selective memories won't wash I'm afraid.
You cannot escape the fact, that along with PV, FSU, Citszz and sores, you have to remain defendant of your actions for the remainder of your life, and that is because 89er's exist.
It is interesting now to also note, that there are more contributors to the posts on this subject, than may have been the case a couple of years back. Not because you now don't have cockpit support is it?
FSU, the resignation aspect has already been addressed, and your "loaded gun" contribution is nonsense. The course of the dispute was far longer than Abeles had anticipated, but he had Hawke by the scrotal skin, because Hawke had already committed himself to the "war", which also meant as long as would take, at taxpayer expense. And the only way they could win it, was not because of foreign scabs, but because of you and the other scabs and sores skulking back.
As for voting "NO", then I assume when you vote for the Natasha Stott the Sponger, and she doesn't win, then you don't accept the democratic verdict. Oh - right - different principle. The hell it is!
One thing about scabs, they all like to project how courageous they were in scabbing. It is a courage which collapses with a gentle wind from the likes of Abeles.
Keep it coming boys.
Kaptin M-
You must be under a fair degree of pressure to come up with this last post.
Whilst we are "world's apart" on 89 and many of its issues I respect your right to STRONGLY state your view-however-the way I read this post-your position could be the one under threat unless you "step back" a little?
Tool Time Two-
Your post arrived whilst I was responding to Kaptin M.
Many of us remember what a solid and "strong" individual you were and are.
Without the "comfort" of name calling you are a person full of wind.
Cheers
You must be under a fair degree of pressure to come up with this last post.
Whilst we are "world's apart" on 89 and many of its issues I respect your right to STRONGLY state your view-however-the way I read this post-your position could be the one under threat unless you "step back" a little?
Tool Time Two-
Your post arrived whilst I was responding to Kaptin M.
Many of us remember what a solid and "strong" individual you were and are.
Without the "comfort" of name calling you are a person full of wind.
Cheers
Last edited by TANUA; 20th Sep 2002 at 12:24.
Moderate, Modest & Mild.
"You must be under a fair degree of pressure to come up with this last post."
"..however-the way I read this post-your position could be the one under threat unless you "step back" a little?"
Simply a statement of (easily verifiable) FACTS, TANUA - but if the heat's becoming too much, stay out of the kitchen!
"..however-the way I read this post-your position could be the one under threat unless you "step back" a little?"
Simply a statement of (easily verifiable) FACTS, TANUA - but if the heat's becoming too much, stay out of the kitchen!
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KM,
Just loved the venom in your last post. Hit a couple of raw nerves did we?
Love your bit about not hating scabs, Just wishing to CULL them from us GODS OF THE SKIES. You sure have got a sad case of something. You really have a bad case of being a legend in your own mind.
You really dont want to start me on the number of jobs that would have been shed prior to 89 except for intervention by the AFAP, that could really bring up some truthes if you really want me to start.
No you are right about AN not being around but the good thing about it was that due to the passing of your kind at least it had between 89 and 2002 to keep a lot of people in a good job during that time that would not have happened if your lot had its way. AN would have disappeared years ago. Unfortunately that is another area where your tunnel vision wont let you accept the truth.
You still did not answer my question about a certain F/O and his reserve duty and what would happen if he tried that stunt today?
Just loved the venom in your last post. Hit a couple of raw nerves did we?
Love your bit about not hating scabs, Just wishing to CULL them from us GODS OF THE SKIES. You sure have got a sad case of something. You really have a bad case of being a legend in your own mind.
You really dont want to start me on the number of jobs that would have been shed prior to 89 except for intervention by the AFAP, that could really bring up some truthes if you really want me to start.
No you are right about AN not being around but the good thing about it was that due to the passing of your kind at least it had between 89 and 2002 to keep a lot of people in a good job during that time that would not have happened if your lot had its way. AN would have disappeared years ago. Unfortunately that is another area where your tunnel vision wont let you accept the truth.
You still did not answer my question about a certain F/O and his reserve duty and what would happen if he tried that stunt today?
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TTT,
Yes I have a very clear recollection what McCarthy said both for public consumption and when at an AFAP meeting when he stated that the 29.47% pay increase would be without any change in work conditions or productivity. Another gentleman previously mentioned that broad banding and other features of the new contracts had been rejected out of hand by the AFAP before the dispute. Yet later on the AFAP, too late, released their pilots to accept the new contracts.
In 1966 Dick Holt faced the situation where the then Air Pilots Association and the companies were diametrically opposed. He had enough sense to look seriously at the bid system proposed by the companies and was able to fit it to his purpose successfully.
You chaps always sink to personal denigration in response and it destroys your credibility. You deny the truth about pay rates, reserves etc even when it is clearly shown that you are wrong.
Rather than being defensive I seek to ensure that your untruths are exposed. I don't give a damn who I "bump into" and treat them as I find them. Have never had a problem. You need to take ownership of your own problems.
We are all agreed that both sides acted reprehensibly especially Hawke and Abeles but we all knew about them long before the dispute and YOU along with the rest of us worked from 1979 to 1989 without moralising about it.
THe AFAP lied to and misled it's members, for instance, about the arrival of pilots from overseas. What other lies were there. From the odd slip of the tongue here and there they lied about other matters before and during the dispute.
Yes I have a very clear recollection what McCarthy said both for public consumption and when at an AFAP meeting when he stated that the 29.47% pay increase would be without any change in work conditions or productivity. Another gentleman previously mentioned that broad banding and other features of the new contracts had been rejected out of hand by the AFAP before the dispute. Yet later on the AFAP, too late, released their pilots to accept the new contracts.
In 1966 Dick Holt faced the situation where the then Air Pilots Association and the companies were diametrically opposed. He had enough sense to look seriously at the bid system proposed by the companies and was able to fit it to his purpose successfully.
You chaps always sink to personal denigration in response and it destroys your credibility. You deny the truth about pay rates, reserves etc even when it is clearly shown that you are wrong.
Rather than being defensive I seek to ensure that your untruths are exposed. I don't give a damn who I "bump into" and treat them as I find them. Have never had a problem. You need to take ownership of your own problems.
We are all agreed that both sides acted reprehensibly especially Hawke and Abeles but we all knew about them long before the dispute and YOU along with the rest of us worked from 1979 to 1989 without moralising about it.
THe AFAP lied to and misled it's members, for instance, about the arrival of pilots from overseas. What other lies were there. From the odd slip of the tongue here and there they lied about other matters before and during the dispute.
Last edited by Flat Side Up; 21st Sep 2002 at 11:10.
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Well, we are still on the air, even if old warriors are slashing at each other in the same old way.
What do we have from all of this?
Returnees: You went back and screwed up the whole system, and for what?
Money: The pay was more after 89 than before, up to at least twice depending on which way you read the figures. So much for 30% or so in the original NEGOTIABLE package.
Productivity: Up and you can shout that from the rooftops, BUT, no LSL components I believe, annual leave at a different level and not taken at least as often in the first year, work practices that had been removed from the awards for years.
Company Loyalty: Only now being bandied about as "we" all want our monies due. Apologies to many of the non-flying staff in this area, but not all as some were real B*&^s when it suited them as said before.
Job security: Zero
Group Synergy: Zero, where are you Q mates in all this, you know the "others" on the list as we "all" stuck together for the "good of the Companies"
I would hazard a guess they are laughing their soxs off. However Impulse/NJ/Southern/Eastern has not yet settled and worse is to come.
Brand recognition: Yes you are a recognised lot, the listees, Gold, Silver and blue card members all.
Future Employment: Yes some are here, there and everywhere and good luck, as you will need it. Most conditions, certainly here, are well down from the ones enjoyed in 90. No CPF, no company fund, worth some 30/40K in the long run PA. You will see further stresses in this area.
Was it worth the stigma?
Was it worth assisting in destroying the Industrial Relations system that had served ALL AUSTRALIANS so well?
Was it worth contributing to the demise of what was and still could have been a great Ansett?
What a price to pay for NOTHING gained!!!
As to what some perceive as lies from the AFAP, that is open to many views. Advice sought and given to all pilots appears to have satisfied 1300 or so who continued to display moral fibre.
The AFAP did as it was asked to do by the membership, nothing more or less than its charter allowed, protected our and YOUR assetts by allowing the resignations to be lodged. Writs delivered and worded in the manner of the times were the indications of things to come, and come they did.
I actually don't have a problem with the ones who NEVER resigned, they were at least honest from day one, some withdrew the form immediately as they didn't want that journey. The rest slinked around corners, passed on information, easily caught, SOPS may remember one we flushed out, nice folks. People really did and still do, show their true colours when the chips are down.
That is one of the main reasons many would never go back then and are reluctant to work with those peoplle now, YOU WENT BACK ON YOUR WORD, no place in a cockpit for that line at all.
Many could hold the line and some would cave in, history was made.
What a price Australia has paid, just because of a few Sc%bs
What do we have from all of this?
Returnees: You went back and screwed up the whole system, and for what?
Money: The pay was more after 89 than before, up to at least twice depending on which way you read the figures. So much for 30% or so in the original NEGOTIABLE package.
Productivity: Up and you can shout that from the rooftops, BUT, no LSL components I believe, annual leave at a different level and not taken at least as often in the first year, work practices that had been removed from the awards for years.
Company Loyalty: Only now being bandied about as "we" all want our monies due. Apologies to many of the non-flying staff in this area, but not all as some were real B*&^s when it suited them as said before.
Job security: Zero
Group Synergy: Zero, where are you Q mates in all this, you know the "others" on the list as we "all" stuck together for the "good of the Companies"
I would hazard a guess they are laughing their soxs off. However Impulse/NJ/Southern/Eastern has not yet settled and worse is to come.
Brand recognition: Yes you are a recognised lot, the listees, Gold, Silver and blue card members all.
Future Employment: Yes some are here, there and everywhere and good luck, as you will need it. Most conditions, certainly here, are well down from the ones enjoyed in 90. No CPF, no company fund, worth some 30/40K in the long run PA. You will see further stresses in this area.
Was it worth the stigma?
Was it worth assisting in destroying the Industrial Relations system that had served ALL AUSTRALIANS so well?
Was it worth contributing to the demise of what was and still could have been a great Ansett?
What a price to pay for NOTHING gained!!!
As to what some perceive as lies from the AFAP, that is open to many views. Advice sought and given to all pilots appears to have satisfied 1300 or so who continued to display moral fibre.
The AFAP did as it was asked to do by the membership, nothing more or less than its charter allowed, protected our and YOUR assetts by allowing the resignations to be lodged. Writs delivered and worded in the manner of the times were the indications of things to come, and come they did.
I actually don't have a problem with the ones who NEVER resigned, they were at least honest from day one, some withdrew the form immediately as they didn't want that journey. The rest slinked around corners, passed on information, easily caught, SOPS may remember one we flushed out, nice folks. People really did and still do, show their true colours when the chips are down.
That is one of the main reasons many would never go back then and are reluctant to work with those peoplle now, YOU WENT BACK ON YOUR WORD, no place in a cockpit for that line at all.
Many could hold the line and some would cave in, history was made.
What a price Australia has paid, just because of a few Sc%bs
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Wrong again as usual on pay rates,annual leave the same, LSL the same, accommodation the same, crew transport away from base the same....................THe AFAP could have had all that IF they had looked sensibly at the proposals at the outset. One can only conclude that the AFAP set out wilfully to entrap members in line with their previously ill conceived "king hit" strategy. Unguarded comments by one Vic Branch member suggested that he looked forward to rapid promotion because the senior pilots would not return after they secured their Super. This was BEFORE the stoppage. Apparently relevant information was not revealed to members before and during the dispute. No one has yet come up with justification of the AFAP lies about inbound arrivals of pilots.
Bye, work to do, no more time to waste on this.
Bye, work to do, no more time to waste on this.
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Well, I see a few people haven’t allowed my “It (the Dispute) wasn’t about money” comment to pass unremarked. In search of brevity, (never my strong point!), I oversimplified, but I’m not retreating from my claim. To explain: for me, and I believe the vast majority of the pilots involved, ‘the dispute’ didn’t become ‘the Dispute’, with that all-important capital ‘D’, until after Aug 24th, so let me amend my original comment to: “After Aug 24th and the mass resignations, for the vast majority who still refused to go back, it was no longer about money.”
I can’t speak for the minority, many of whom who saw the radically changed situation after Aug 24th as a once in a lifetime opportunity to gain a huge pay rise, rapid promotion or a shortcut to permanent residence in Australia.
It will probably draw more howls of outrage for me to say it, but, without wishing to cast any personal or professional aspersions at the people involved, let me remind the post March 90 ‘clean skins’ within AN and TN that many if not most of you only got your jobs (or got them as early as you did) because 1288* far more experienced pilots were denied the opportunity of even being interviewed. And they were denied this by their heroic ex-colleagues who said (and I quote superhero Dick Marman here) that it would be unsafe to share a cockpit with them. It’s curious how the safety issue doesn’t seem to matter one whit now that it’s the heroes trying to find jobs in airlines where those dreadful ‘stay-outs’ are now working, isn’t it?
*(I’ve deducted the token re-employed ‘12 Apostles’ from the 1300.)
------------------------------
And in closing: Pole Vaulter, I can’t let your following comment to pass unremarked.
I agree 110% with what you’ve said. The AFAP did fight to maintain employment for a number of pilots who many of their colleagues at the time thought to be inappropriate people to be in the job, (one of them even gets a mention on this thread), but what you neglected to mention was that, almost to a man, these people were among the very first to turn their backs on the Union, adopt the ‘hero’ mantle and return to work for the airlines.
There were also more than a few people in the post 89 AN (and I’m assuming TN) who gained jet commands who were on a four lane downhill highway to becoming permanent First Officers in the ‘old’ AN. You know who you are (and I assume many of your younger ‘clean skin’ colleagues know who you are as well) and you know I speak the truth.
I can’t speak for the minority, many of whom who saw the radically changed situation after Aug 24th as a once in a lifetime opportunity to gain a huge pay rise, rapid promotion or a shortcut to permanent residence in Australia.
It will probably draw more howls of outrage for me to say it, but, without wishing to cast any personal or professional aspersions at the people involved, let me remind the post March 90 ‘clean skins’ within AN and TN that many if not most of you only got your jobs (or got them as early as you did) because 1288* far more experienced pilots were denied the opportunity of even being interviewed. And they were denied this by their heroic ex-colleagues who said (and I quote superhero Dick Marman here) that it would be unsafe to share a cockpit with them. It’s curious how the safety issue doesn’t seem to matter one whit now that it’s the heroes trying to find jobs in airlines where those dreadful ‘stay-outs’ are now working, isn’t it?
*(I’ve deducted the token re-employed ‘12 Apostles’ from the 1300.)
------------------------------
And in closing: Pole Vaulter, I can’t let your following comment to pass unremarked.
You really dont (sic) want to start me on the number of jobs that would have been shed prior to 89 except for intervention by the AFAP, that could really bring up some truthes (sic) if you really want me to start.
There were also more than a few people in the post 89 AN (and I’m assuming TN) who gained jet commands who were on a four lane downhill highway to becoming permanent First Officers in the ‘old’ AN. You know who you are (and I assume many of your younger ‘clean skin’ colleagues know who you are as well) and you know I speak the truth.
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CITIZEN XX vs KAPTIN M
And it's CITIZEN XX by a mile....
Sorry but his reasoning beats KM's ranting and raving any day.
This topic is getting boring.
Woomera: Why is it after I log in then type my reply and hit "SUBMIT REPLY", I have to then RE-ENTER my log-in details??? Every time, this happens.
Sorry but his reasoning beats KM's ranting and raving any day.
This topic is getting boring.
Woomera: Why is it after I log in then type my reply and hit "SUBMIT REPLY", I have to then RE-ENTER my log-in details??? Every time, this happens.
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Thanks you Water Ops, and I don't have to resort to slinging $hit to win it by a mile.
Notice KM didn't address the issue of the wine merchant and the first female having a go and being knocked back? If $cabs are bad, then they are the worst possible kind. Nor did he address the issue of QF flying over domestic routes after supposedly giving an undertaking to the AFAP that they wouldn't do so. The fact is, there was no undertaking. McCarthy told us there was, but the QF union never gave any such undertaking.
And KM, I carry no stigma, can look anyone in or out of the aviation business right in the eye, not abuse them, and don't have to feel that I should justify my actions. Whenever that distant event is discussed, people comment on what a gutsy decision it was, and say that they would have done the same.
I feel the AFAP management should have justified themselves. Contrary to what a few senior pilots sworn in the courts, I was coerced into submitting my resignation, and was told that they would NEVER be submitted. It was just a tactic to frighten the companies. Yeah, well it frightened the $hit out of them. History reveals that.
The was also the issue of lying about foreign pilots, QF pilots' undertaking, along with a plethora of other lies to keep the faithful strong. More like feeding mushrooms bull**** I'd say.
WaterOps, you're right though; this is boring. KM, TTT, Amos etc have all had these cases put to them numerous times, but they just don't get it. One would hope that their behaviour is just a charade, because if it's not, I have serious doubts about their reasoning abilities. Fortunately, when I have the time, I don't mind a little verbal jousting, but time is tight and I am unable to give it as much time as KM, TTT, Amos etc.
The infantile name calling - oh dear! Isn't this primary school (and early primary school, at that) stuff?? I'm glad that I don't have a limp, lisp or disability they could home in on. I'd hate being called Ita Buttrose, Hoppy or similar.
Wiley, there will always be such people who slip through the system. You know the old rule - 5% aces, 90% average, and 5% duds. They'll always exist, and somehow survive because they know the checkie, just lucky on the day, or the most important one, they have something on someone well up the food chain, and that's a lot more common than anyone imagines. Don't be fooled into thinking that everyone who didn't return in 89 was an ace because that is a fallacy. Some of those less than competent types are still flying BIG aircraft round the world today. Just goes to show that it is more forgiving than most believe.
One of those duds gets a mention elsewhere. The F27 Capt who was demoted because of the low run followed by a wingover at ASP with a tube full of terrified Japanese tourists. He would have to have been in the bottom 5% of the bottom 5%. And guess what? That was revealed within a month of his signing with a middle east airline in late 89. He was back running a Tattslotto agency before Christmas. If you need further proof that those who 'held the line' were not all guns, I'd be only too happy to oblige.
And Wiley, in your next post, could you please lose the tedious 'sics'? Very few who post here would have learnt touch typing, don't bother to proof read, and just want to contribute, with a few typos seen as acceptable. Alternatively, you could quote your mates, TTT, KM, etc and your post wouldn't make sense because of the number of 'sics' you would need to insert.
Like you, I am at times appalled by the standard of English expression used by some posters here, but I'm sure there are other issues as I've mentioned above. Rather than try to humiliate them, I commend them on their willingness to post.
And KM, I'm not finished with you yet. I've jumped through the SQ hoops over the past couple of months, and am waiting on a date and base. If it's Singapore, I won't be going, but if it's in Australia, I will accept. Nice position to be in, isn't it. And there were a number of others leaping through the hoops with me, so your assertion that SQ won't be taking more is more bull$hit. I'm sure you called someone in power there and advised them of their folly in employing more scabs. Let's see if your call was heeded.
Notice KM didn't address the issue of the wine merchant and the first female having a go and being knocked back? If $cabs are bad, then they are the worst possible kind. Nor did he address the issue of QF flying over domestic routes after supposedly giving an undertaking to the AFAP that they wouldn't do so. The fact is, there was no undertaking. McCarthy told us there was, but the QF union never gave any such undertaking.
And KM, I carry no stigma, can look anyone in or out of the aviation business right in the eye, not abuse them, and don't have to feel that I should justify my actions. Whenever that distant event is discussed, people comment on what a gutsy decision it was, and say that they would have done the same.
I feel the AFAP management should have justified themselves. Contrary to what a few senior pilots sworn in the courts, I was coerced into submitting my resignation, and was told that they would NEVER be submitted. It was just a tactic to frighten the companies. Yeah, well it frightened the $hit out of them. History reveals that.
The was also the issue of lying about foreign pilots, QF pilots' undertaking, along with a plethora of other lies to keep the faithful strong. More like feeding mushrooms bull**** I'd say.
WaterOps, you're right though; this is boring. KM, TTT, Amos etc have all had these cases put to them numerous times, but they just don't get it. One would hope that their behaviour is just a charade, because if it's not, I have serious doubts about their reasoning abilities. Fortunately, when I have the time, I don't mind a little verbal jousting, but time is tight and I am unable to give it as much time as KM, TTT, Amos etc.
The infantile name calling - oh dear! Isn't this primary school (and early primary school, at that) stuff?? I'm glad that I don't have a limp, lisp or disability they could home in on. I'd hate being called Ita Buttrose, Hoppy or similar.
Wiley, there will always be such people who slip through the system. You know the old rule - 5% aces, 90% average, and 5% duds. They'll always exist, and somehow survive because they know the checkie, just lucky on the day, or the most important one, they have something on someone well up the food chain, and that's a lot more common than anyone imagines. Don't be fooled into thinking that everyone who didn't return in 89 was an ace because that is a fallacy. Some of those less than competent types are still flying BIG aircraft round the world today. Just goes to show that it is more forgiving than most believe.
One of those duds gets a mention elsewhere. The F27 Capt who was demoted because of the low run followed by a wingover at ASP with a tube full of terrified Japanese tourists. He would have to have been in the bottom 5% of the bottom 5%. And guess what? That was revealed within a month of his signing with a middle east airline in late 89. He was back running a Tattslotto agency before Christmas. If you need further proof that those who 'held the line' were not all guns, I'd be only too happy to oblige.
And Wiley, in your next post, could you please lose the tedious 'sics'? Very few who post here would have learnt touch typing, don't bother to proof read, and just want to contribute, with a few typos seen as acceptable. Alternatively, you could quote your mates, TTT, KM, etc and your post wouldn't make sense because of the number of 'sics' you would need to insert.
Like you, I am at times appalled by the standard of English expression used by some posters here, but I'm sure there are other issues as I've mentioned above. Rather than try to humiliate them, I commend them on their willingness to post.
And KM, I'm not finished with you yet. I've jumped through the SQ hoops over the past couple of months, and am waiting on a date and base. If it's Singapore, I won't be going, but if it's in Australia, I will accept. Nice position to be in, isn't it. And there were a number of others leaping through the hoops with me, so your assertion that SQ won't be taking more is more bull$hit. I'm sure you called someone in power there and advised them of their folly in employing more scabs. Let's see if your call was heeded.
Last edited by CitizenXX; 21st Sep 2002 at 07:39.
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Wiley,
Just love how yourself and your mate KM have such selective memory when it comes to showing of two of the so called returnees who the AFAP "saved" but forgetting to mention the many that were and are are and still in your bunch that would not have a job today without the shotgun of the AFAP.
Would you like to jog your memory back to a certain incident at ASP in a F27 that was not considered an appropiate manouver for an airliner and the penalty (after the shotgun was held at the head) was demotion frm F27 captain to B767 F/O. Boy what a pay cut that must have been. WOW what a price to pay
Would you like me to jog it back to DRW when the flight to BNE had to be cancelled while the crew where retrieved from the local jail due to behavour not appropiate at the local Casino. Once again the Shotgun treatment was brought into action. I could go on and on but I guess these and all similar and a few far worse incidents get totally removed from the minds of your bunch where truth is in a different form to the normal meaning of the word.
These were not your dreaded Scabs but your Gods of the Skies.
If you don't (or don't wish to) remember them look in the archives of your AFAP and they will be well documented. But then again the AFAP will say they did not exist like the "List"
Removing a pilot (except health reasons) almost never happened in the years up to 89 but after that year it crew had to become accountable as did any other employee. I guess selective memory is something your group seems to have a problem with overall. Might have to do with the water you drink or something.
Just love how yourself and your mate KM have such selective memory when it comes to showing of two of the so called returnees who the AFAP "saved" but forgetting to mention the many that were and are are and still in your bunch that would not have a job today without the shotgun of the AFAP.
Would you like to jog your memory back to a certain incident at ASP in a F27 that was not considered an appropiate manouver for an airliner and the penalty (after the shotgun was held at the head) was demotion frm F27 captain to B767 F/O. Boy what a pay cut that must have been. WOW what a price to pay
Would you like me to jog it back to DRW when the flight to BNE had to be cancelled while the crew where retrieved from the local jail due to behavour not appropiate at the local Casino. Once again the Shotgun treatment was brought into action. I could go on and on but I guess these and all similar and a few far worse incidents get totally removed from the minds of your bunch where truth is in a different form to the normal meaning of the word.
These were not your dreaded Scabs but your Gods of the Skies.
If you don't (or don't wish to) remember them look in the archives of your AFAP and they will be well documented. But then again the AFAP will say they did not exist like the "List"
Removing a pilot (except health reasons) almost never happened in the years up to 89 but after that year it crew had to become accountable as did any other employee. I guess selective memory is something your group seems to have a problem with overall. Might have to do with the water you drink or something.
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Boys, I am delighted you have obliged me with your posts.
The problem scabs face is that their posts, on small analysis, must forever remain defensive.
The accusation, for example, that the AFAP told "lies", is to suggest the corollary that Abeles and his boys didn't.
Not so of course.
The scabs always accuse the Feds. of all sorts of demonic behaviour. Again defensive behaviour.
As I have posted many times, well boys, if you didn't like it, then why did you not take the appropriate action, and remove the offending leadership through the means at your disposal?
Nope! Much easier, and given the protection, more anonymous to scab, and turn your backs on those whom you called colleagues for so many years. Not to regain YOUR job, but to take someone else's, and that former colleagues's pay as well.
Oh, the resignations - well, they have been dealt with by me and others, and when it comes to selective memory, none is more selective than that of the defensive scab. It is ALL the AFAP's fault because it lied.
Garbage boys.
The resignations were used exactly as they said they would be, and if you want to dream up some selective memory as to what someone said - you are dead wrong.
YOU decided, because of weakness, to take the money and to hell with those on whom you turned.
I wonder how many played Fagan in the school play?
So a Vic Branch member was going to get rapid promotion eh?
Well, he got it, after he scabbed. And we all know who that was.
He is probably a B7474 Captain in QF now. Which says a lot for the weakness of the QF AIPA of the day.
The golden scabs were men of weak character. The sorts of individuals who entrenched themselves in the AN Flight Department, were of second class character compared to many of those who could and would have done a better job pre '89. Some of those turned down offers in the years before '89. It is a pity that the chief wasn't more selective.
FSU, direct all of us to the archival material which quotes McCarthy as saying productivity and conditions were not negotiable. The 29.47% was not negotiable - but not one other item. Prove it otherwise with verifiable quotes.
The next time a scab says the not negotiable 29.47% was evil, well, we can all roll around the floor laughing.
Except the AN scabs - who have lost it all now.
Name calling? Not from me. Just a fact of recognising the real enemy.
Hatred? No. It is far too important an emotion to waste on a scab.
Pity? Yep. That my time and social context before '89 was wasted on any of them.
The problem scabs face is that their posts, on small analysis, must forever remain defensive.
The accusation, for example, that the AFAP told "lies", is to suggest the corollary that Abeles and his boys didn't.
Not so of course.
The scabs always accuse the Feds. of all sorts of demonic behaviour. Again defensive behaviour.
As I have posted many times, well boys, if you didn't like it, then why did you not take the appropriate action, and remove the offending leadership through the means at your disposal?
Nope! Much easier, and given the protection, more anonymous to scab, and turn your backs on those whom you called colleagues for so many years. Not to regain YOUR job, but to take someone else's, and that former colleagues's pay as well.
Oh, the resignations - well, they have been dealt with by me and others, and when it comes to selective memory, none is more selective than that of the defensive scab. It is ALL the AFAP's fault because it lied.
Garbage boys.
The resignations were used exactly as they said they would be, and if you want to dream up some selective memory as to what someone said - you are dead wrong.
YOU decided, because of weakness, to take the money and to hell with those on whom you turned.
I wonder how many played Fagan in the school play?
So a Vic Branch member was going to get rapid promotion eh?
Well, he got it, after he scabbed. And we all know who that was.
He is probably a B7474 Captain in QF now. Which says a lot for the weakness of the QF AIPA of the day.
The golden scabs were men of weak character. The sorts of individuals who entrenched themselves in the AN Flight Department, were of second class character compared to many of those who could and would have done a better job pre '89. Some of those turned down offers in the years before '89. It is a pity that the chief wasn't more selective.
FSU, direct all of us to the archival material which quotes McCarthy as saying productivity and conditions were not negotiable. The 29.47% was not negotiable - but not one other item. Prove it otherwise with verifiable quotes.
The next time a scab says the not negotiable 29.47% was evil, well, we can all roll around the floor laughing.
Except the AN scabs - who have lost it all now.
Name calling? Not from me. Just a fact of recognising the real enemy.
Hatred? No. It is far too important an emotion to waste on a scab.
Pity? Yep. That my time and social context before '89 was wasted on any of them.