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CitizenXX,... up till to-night I thought I was every womens dream, but I had a scuff...and now I'm on my own...so maybe I'm f****d...I find life hard..and don't know where to turn............but I must struggle on and see what life will give me...I will fight back the tears.............best wishes to all...................
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Fubaar,
I agree that there were breaches, if not flagrant violations, of Australian law, but it happens every day. I don't agree either, but I can't change it.
We, any one of us, can't be a martyr to every cause - it just isn't possible.
The US is about to violate international law, again, but what do we do? Throw ourselves in front of their missiles? Not likely!
We just have to accept that there are, and always will be, things in life that we are powerless to change. Even if we rallied 20 or 30% of the population, and that would be difficult with the apathetic Aussies, it won't change these situations. People have short memories, with the exception of a few who post here, and politicians know it. They'll ride roughshod over you, and if you haven't forgotten it by the next election, and the opposition gets in because of YOUR vote, then they'll ride roughshod over you. What do you do then?? Vote Greens, who will never govern.
All you do by being offended and indignant is cause yourself untold stress and probably shorten your life.
Not much point in that I wouldn't have thought.
I agree that there were breaches, if not flagrant violations, of Australian law, but it happens every day. I don't agree either, but I can't change it.
We, any one of us, can't be a martyr to every cause - it just isn't possible.
The US is about to violate international law, again, but what do we do? Throw ourselves in front of their missiles? Not likely!
We just have to accept that there are, and always will be, things in life that we are powerless to change. Even if we rallied 20 or 30% of the population, and that would be difficult with the apathetic Aussies, it won't change these situations. People have short memories, with the exception of a few who post here, and politicians know it. They'll ride roughshod over you, and if you haven't forgotten it by the next election, and the opposition gets in because of YOUR vote, then they'll ride roughshod over you. What do you do then?? Vote Greens, who will never govern.
All you do by being offended and indignant is cause yourself untold stress and probably shorten your life.
Not much point in that I wouldn't have thought.
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Here's a nice insight into the writer.
Citizen XX complaining about "apathetic Aussies"... I nearly pissed myself laughing at the irony of such a comment coming from a self-confessed indecisive scab.
And another thing.
Citizen XX, how can you expect us to take seriously your pompous rusings about world affairs and the rule of law? Your diatribe about the cruel, cold, hard world (oh so worldly wise you are) that we live in? Your pragmatic assaying of events is nothing but pedestrian arrogance!
By your own admission you lack forsight; are given to prevarication and, can be unreliable and change your mind half way through an event. Claiming of course with self-righteous hindsight that "I was mislead".
Spare us. Stay at home and maintain your narrow focus. Leave the real world to those of us who have been living in it for more than a decade now.
If you behaved in keeping with past events - you would side with the UN and demand Security Council mandate, talk big-time about the unfairness of inflicting further pain and suffering on Iraq's population, stridently agree with President Chirac that the USA's policy of pre-emptive strike is dangerous folly, applaud Chancellor Schroeder's agreement not to involve German troops in any invasion of Iraq - and then, stun everyone, by cowering before the American juggernaut, compliantly roll-over and go along with what ever they say and do. Then, as a finale, wait 12 years in blissful ignorance before proclaiming you didn't really understand the issues when you made your first stand.
Spare us your unreliable, uninformed opinion.
Citizen XX complaining about "apathetic Aussies"... I nearly pissed myself laughing at the irony of such a comment coming from a self-confessed indecisive scab.
And another thing.
Citizen XX, how can you expect us to take seriously your pompous rusings about world affairs and the rule of law? Your diatribe about the cruel, cold, hard world (oh so worldly wise you are) that we live in? Your pragmatic assaying of events is nothing but pedestrian arrogance!
By your own admission you lack forsight; are given to prevarication and, can be unreliable and change your mind half way through an event. Claiming of course with self-righteous hindsight that "I was mislead".
Spare us. Stay at home and maintain your narrow focus. Leave the real world to those of us who have been living in it for more than a decade now.
If you behaved in keeping with past events - you would side with the UN and demand Security Council mandate, talk big-time about the unfairness of inflicting further pain and suffering on Iraq's population, stridently agree with President Chirac that the USA's policy of pre-emptive strike is dangerous folly, applaud Chancellor Schroeder's agreement not to involve German troops in any invasion of Iraq - and then, stun everyone, by cowering before the American juggernaut, compliantly roll-over and go along with what ever they say and do. Then, as a finale, wait 12 years in blissful ignorance before proclaiming you didn't really understand the issues when you made your first stand.
Spare us your unreliable, uninformed opinion.
Last edited by HIALS; 24th Sep 2002 at 01:57.
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kaptin M please get a life...you did not want to go back...and others did...scab is a word that has no meaning in the 20th century...its an old fashion outdated emotive relic of the past that is held on to by fools...everybody must do what is right for them...
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Good on you Citizen XX. It's good to see a different perspective on things. I think if Kaptin M was my dog, I'd take him down to the vet to have him put out of his misery!
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XX
You made a very good point:
"We, any one of us, can't be a martyr to every cause - it just isn't possible"
So what do we do....? We look at history and see which causes are worth fighting for and which are not worth it. And the history of organized labour is that the cause shown to be most worth fighting for is the right to organize and the right to collectively negotiate.
That's why '89 is such a sensitive issue. You know as well as I do that the Dispute didn't start in August 89, it was on the tracks long before that and would have proceeded in some way shape or form regardless. The way the 80's Hawke Corporate State was shaping up included the end of smaller independent unions and wage freezes, (despite both being completely unconstitutional)
The airlines, one owned by the government, the other one arguably partly owning the government, had been in a Two Airline Policy management coma for years and along with the government, didn't like legitimate AFAP action in technical areas (remember the dust-ups over Line-Up Allowance, CAO 48, Dangerous Goods etc etc) and legitimate non-technical issues (remember the superannuation battles?). So they, for all sorts of reasons, wanted a world where pilots would be denied the right to organize and collectively negotiate. The Dispute happened the way it did, but it was always going to happen in some way.
And in the end, however the particular scenarios played out, there was always a big question: "Would the pilots stick together" . Or Not. And Ansett had already put in the spadework for the Not case on the advice of a former AFAP official and Bob's anti-pilot prejudices. So we, legal members of a legal union, faced a world where the battle lines were drawn and whatever happened (whether we resigned or not, were sued or not, had a lock-out or not, faced contract strike-breakers or not, faced deregistration or not) our main defence was and always will be, solidarity.
You can dress it up any way you want, but these are facts and not changed by whether this or that event happened just the way it did. It¡¯s sad that the airlines chose an anti-labour fight over actual re-structuring and good-faith negotiating, but that's the way it was. They cost the industry several billions and thousands of jobs by the time the last of the 4 airlines was finally destroyed.
If it had turned out that the AFAP had been destroyed instead of the airlines that wouldn't have meant that the rights of employees to organize and negotiate were wrong or misplaced ideals, or that the battle wasn't worth fighting.
You made a very good point:
"We, any one of us, can't be a martyr to every cause - it just isn't possible"
So what do we do....? We look at history and see which causes are worth fighting for and which are not worth it. And the history of organized labour is that the cause shown to be most worth fighting for is the right to organize and the right to collectively negotiate.
That's why '89 is such a sensitive issue. You know as well as I do that the Dispute didn't start in August 89, it was on the tracks long before that and would have proceeded in some way shape or form regardless. The way the 80's Hawke Corporate State was shaping up included the end of smaller independent unions and wage freezes, (despite both being completely unconstitutional)
The airlines, one owned by the government, the other one arguably partly owning the government, had been in a Two Airline Policy management coma for years and along with the government, didn't like legitimate AFAP action in technical areas (remember the dust-ups over Line-Up Allowance, CAO 48, Dangerous Goods etc etc) and legitimate non-technical issues (remember the superannuation battles?). So they, for all sorts of reasons, wanted a world where pilots would be denied the right to organize and collectively negotiate. The Dispute happened the way it did, but it was always going to happen in some way.
And in the end, however the particular scenarios played out, there was always a big question: "Would the pilots stick together" . Or Not. And Ansett had already put in the spadework for the Not case on the advice of a former AFAP official and Bob's anti-pilot prejudices. So we, legal members of a legal union, faced a world where the battle lines were drawn and whatever happened (whether we resigned or not, were sued or not, had a lock-out or not, faced contract strike-breakers or not, faced deregistration or not) our main defence was and always will be, solidarity.
You can dress it up any way you want, but these are facts and not changed by whether this or that event happened just the way it did. It¡¯s sad that the airlines chose an anti-labour fight over actual re-structuring and good-faith negotiating, but that's the way it was. They cost the industry several billions and thousands of jobs by the time the last of the 4 airlines was finally destroyed.
If it had turned out that the AFAP had been destroyed instead of the airlines that wouldn't have meant that the rights of employees to organize and negotiate were wrong or misplaced ideals, or that the battle wasn't worth fighting.
Citizen XX
If you're so proud of being a sc@b, why did you wait till early in 1990 to go back. Were you holding off on committing your heroic deed, just in case the AFAP won!!
Just a thought!
If you're so proud of being a sc@b, why did you wait till early in 1990 to go back. Were you holding off on committing your heroic deed, just in case the AFAP won!!
Just a thought!
Last edited by Sid Departure; 24th Sep 2002 at 11:31.
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Before some of you become too precious and righteous, why don't we remember those 'leaders' within the AFAP who in early 1990 were preaching to the hoi polloi to tow the line, yet had already organised jobs for themselves overseas. Why haven't any of you commented on this. (Or maybe the truth is too tough).
They knew very well where it was all headed. The problem is that we, the troops, were left in the dark. Some leadership.
It takes only a cursory glance at our current DJ management to see that things have not changed in 13 years. If it looks like a duck ..........etc etc.
They knew very well where it was all headed. The problem is that we, the troops, were left in the dark. Some leadership.
It takes only a cursory glance at our current DJ management to see that things have not changed in 13 years. If it looks like a duck ..........etc etc.
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My recollection is that the bulk of the leaders hung around for as long as necessary or longer. Remember that these guys had (and still have I think?) zillion dollar lawsuits against them for a programme of industrial action uspported in secret ballots by nearly 100% of the troops. It was the guys who voted one way then ran another (leaving the leaders to face bankruptcy) that are the deserters.
As I recall, the then AFAP President was almost the last one to leave the country, having showed his commitment to those standing alongside him.
We can never get past the fact that had the last 20 in both major airlines NOT gone back...then this would all be academic.
Translation lessons for those who've forgotten: "I'm only taking my job back" had the real meaning "I'm making sure you never get your job back"
And as for the current head of ops at VB...haven't spoken to him in over 10 years, but he's helped build a lot of jobs in Australia...and as the SXXXbs will tell you, its jobs that count.
As I recall, the then AFAP President was almost the last one to leave the country, having showed his commitment to those standing alongside him.
We can never get past the fact that had the last 20 in both major airlines NOT gone back...then this would all be academic.
Translation lessons for those who've forgotten: "I'm only taking my job back" had the real meaning "I'm making sure you never get your job back"
And as for the current head of ops at VB...haven't spoken to him in over 10 years, but he's helped build a lot of jobs in Australia...and as the SXXXbs will tell you, its jobs that count.
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it wasn't only AFAP leadership getting jobs overseas, many rank and file also headed off. you may all be interested to know there were two "LISTS" running in the early days of the dispute. one was the returnees and the other was the bon voyage brigade. in week thirteen of the dispute a total of 78 pilots had gone back to the airlines and a mammoth 215 had secured overseas positions. so where is this "let's all stick together" cr@p now may I ask?
i reckon if the first twenty hadn't run off overseas the above quote would hold some truth. the crack in the dam(DAMN) wall started with those pilots NOT the returnees !!!!!!
We can never get past the fact that had the last 20 in both major airlines NOT gone back...then this would all be academic.
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Running off overseas????
BULLSH*T
Those that chose that path had ALREADY DECIDED that working for or with the previous companies was no longer an acceptable position.
The SC%BS and the COMPANIES were no longer to be trusted!!!
See my post at 3 or 4 in to the original part of this.
Some of those remaining applied for their jobs in the March of 90 to confirm that the "pre-loved" were no longer "loved" at all and to force the issue of any prejudice, which the "unsafe cockpit" document was to effectively activate anyway.
I was still in Aust at that time and applied and assisted several of the F/Os who wouldn't go to the office without a "guardian".
This may be seen by some as a double standard, but to assist the F/Os who had little or no alternatives I felt the journey was worth the effort to go back to the office. Needless to say the previously mentioned bully told me to "P**s Off" in no uncertain terms, which was later confirmed by letter as being "NOT SUITABLY QUALIFIED" for a position.
We have NEVER run away from our principles of being represented by the body of our choice, the AFAP at that time.
You the returnees and their supporters in most other unions who worked with, refueled, catered, loaded and did all the other things that let the Govt, Ansett, Australian and Murdoch have their way did more damage than YOU realise.
If you want some blame, chew on that.
BULLSH*T
Those that chose that path had ALREADY DECIDED that working for or with the previous companies was no longer an acceptable position.
The SC%BS and the COMPANIES were no longer to be trusted!!!
See my post at 3 or 4 in to the original part of this.
Some of those remaining applied for their jobs in the March of 90 to confirm that the "pre-loved" were no longer "loved" at all and to force the issue of any prejudice, which the "unsafe cockpit" document was to effectively activate anyway.
I was still in Aust at that time and applied and assisted several of the F/Os who wouldn't go to the office without a "guardian".
This may be seen by some as a double standard, but to assist the F/Os who had little or no alternatives I felt the journey was worth the effort to go back to the office. Needless to say the previously mentioned bully told me to "P**s Off" in no uncertain terms, which was later confirmed by letter as being "NOT SUITABLY QUALIFIED" for a position.
We have NEVER run away from our principles of being represented by the body of our choice, the AFAP at that time.
You the returnees and their supporters in most other unions who worked with, refueled, catered, loaded and did all the other things that let the Govt, Ansett, Australian and Murdoch have their way did more damage than YOU realise.
If you want some blame, chew on that.
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Those that chose that path had ALREADY DECIDED that working for or with the previous companies was no longer an acceptable position.
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Wisofoz,
I have been on a trip and apologise for the late response.
I joined The Federation whilst in GA as did most pilots of my vintage. I was not coerced and know of no one who was.
As a matter of interest, were you coerced into the APA, or did you join for the perceived protection and benefits of this association?
Did you actually attend a resignation briefing?
I did and heard none of what you claim. It was simple. Resignations would be submitted if writs were issued. I authorised my resignation by signing it. Is there something about signing a document I don't understand?
So you knew someone who sort of signed, but this depended on further consultation (another signature?) and then was only to be exercised sometime ....
Wisofoz, you either signed or you didn't.
- The people thus labled/on the list/democratic rights.
I do not believe being known and listed as a scab by those you scabbed on is a violation of rights.
These pilots returned to the airlines and were included in EBA negotiations, as discussed in a previous post.
There is a difference between being an employee and being an accomplace. Be carefull with your "furrfys".
I have been on a trip and apologise for the late response.
I joined The Federation whilst in GA as did most pilots of my vintage. I was not coerced and know of no one who was.
As a matter of interest, were you coerced into the APA, or did you join for the perceived protection and benefits of this association?
Did you actually attend a resignation briefing?
I did and heard none of what you claim. It was simple. Resignations would be submitted if writs were issued. I authorised my resignation by signing it. Is there something about signing a document I don't understand?
So you knew someone who sort of signed, but this depended on further consultation (another signature?) and then was only to be exercised sometime ....
Wisofoz, you either signed or you didn't.
- The people thus labled/on the list/democratic rights.
I do not believe being known and listed as a scab by those you scabbed on is a violation of rights.
These pilots returned to the airlines and were included in EBA negotiations, as discussed in a previous post.
There is a difference between being an employee and being an accomplace. Be carefull with your "furrfys".
Last edited by BrisBoy; 24th Sep 2002 at 12:05.
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Truth Seeker (is that really what you're after?)
Time for Cold Hard Facts. If the only people who went back to work were those who voted against collective action and never resigned, then the dispute would have lasted a few days, created a little enmity and been almost forgotten by now.
People who went overseas had voted NOT to return to work without the right to organize and negotiate collectively. I did not return to work in Australia until (with Compass) those conditions were met. If all those who voted with us had kept to the very resolutions they urged their fellow pilots to keep, the Dispute and the resulting destruction of 4 airlines never would have happened.
Time for Cold Hard Facts. If the only people who went back to work were those who voted against collective action and never resigned, then the dispute would have lasted a few days, created a little enmity and been almost forgotten by now.
People who went overseas had voted NOT to return to work without the right to organize and negotiate collectively. I did not return to work in Australia until (with Compass) those conditions were met. If all those who voted with us had kept to the very resolutions they urged their fellow pilots to keep, the Dispute and the resulting destruction of 4 airlines never would have happened.
Last edited by elektra; 25th Sep 2002 at 00:43.
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As I recall, elektra, the original resolution was to support the AFAP in the push for a 29.47% pay claim. Up to and including industrial action as deemed appropriate by the AFAP.
Those resolutions WERE kept until the Executive decided to submit the resignations. END of industrial action, END of jobs and IMHO END OF AFAP's credibility!
If all those who voted with us had kept to the very resolutions they urged their fellow pilots to keep, the Dispute and the resulting destruction of 4 airlines never would have happened.
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While the resignations were indeed signed, it was made VERY CLEAR that they would not be used without further consultation. Also explained as "gathering the ammunition" just in case.
How many of us were shocked and devastated to find out that they had in fact been submitted almost before the ink had dried ?
It's a bitter lesson I learn't then - NEVER sign away your job. With the advantage of hindsight, we were so naive and gullible.
We lost ALL of our bargaining power when the AFAP gave those letters to the companies.
- WE WERE NO LONGER ON STRIKE.
- THERE WAS NO LONGER A DISPUTE.
- WE HANDED THE COMPANIES A READY MADE SOLUTION.
I admit Hawke and Abeles have a lot to answer for, but so does the AFAP leadership at the time. Elements of that leadership still exert influence today.
How many of us were shocked and devastated to find out that they had in fact been submitted almost before the ink had dried ?
It's a bitter lesson I learn't then - NEVER sign away your job. With the advantage of hindsight, we were so naive and gullible.
We lost ALL of our bargaining power when the AFAP gave those letters to the companies.
- WE WERE NO LONGER ON STRIKE.
- THERE WAS NO LONGER A DISPUTE.
- WE HANDED THE COMPANIES A READY MADE SOLUTION.
I admit Hawke and Abeles have a lot to answer for, but so does the AFAP leadership at the time. Elements of that leadership still exert influence today.
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Time for a joke I think:
So there's this Irishman see...and he walks into a bar and says: "if the resignations had never happened then the companies would have backed off, there'd have been no scabs, the ACTU would have totally supported us, the lawsuits would have been withdrawn (because Abeles NEVER intended to bankrupt anyone) and the AFAP and the airlines would have lived happily ever after"
Not bad eh....if I hadn't resigned I probably would have lost everything but I could have got a job as a jokewriter.
So there's this Irishman see...and he walks into a bar and says: "if the resignations had never happened then the companies would have backed off, there'd have been no scabs, the ACTU would have totally supported us, the lawsuits would have been withdrawn (because Abeles NEVER intended to bankrupt anyone) and the AFAP and the airlines would have lived happily ever after"
Not bad eh....if I hadn't resigned I probably would have lost everything but I could have got a job as a jokewriter.
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elektra,
Glad you mentioned the Irish joke. The Irish Generals running the dispute certainly turned out to be a joke.
Recognise reality, they conspired to deceive their members. If every AFAP pilot had stayed out then there were sufficient qualified, pilots to fill the vacant positions that were advertised. Not one of the ex AFAP pilots would have been needed. As for highly qualified pilots being passed over after the AFAP opened the gates.......ALL THE CAPTAIN AND ALL THE FIRST OFFICER POSITIONS HAD BEEN FILLED. Future Captain upgrades were from within the airline (no Direct entry Captains) and any further recruitment was for First Officer positons.
Glad you mentioned the Irish joke. The Irish Generals running the dispute certainly turned out to be a joke.
Recognise reality, they conspired to deceive their members. If every AFAP pilot had stayed out then there were sufficient qualified, pilots to fill the vacant positions that were advertised. Not one of the ex AFAP pilots would have been needed. As for highly qualified pilots being passed over after the AFAP opened the gates.......ALL THE CAPTAIN AND ALL THE FIRST OFFICER POSITIONS HAD BEEN FILLED. Future Captain upgrades were from within the airline (no Direct entry Captains) and any further recruitment was for First Officer positons.
Last edited by Flat Side Up; 25th Sep 2002 at 06:35.