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Recession, war and the airlines

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Recession, war and the airlines

Old 2nd Oct 2022, 16:37
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43 Inches
If you do take it on and fly near a hot zone dont let them talk you into low valley approaches as safe.
I'm with National - and THEY NEVER "talk you into low valley approaches". What an asinine comment.


National Air 747 crash at Kandahar due poor loading
It was not at Kandahar. That was back in 2013 and just like the pax world, SOPS get changed as result of blood spilled. Lots of history of pax aircraft being loaded wrongly, or SOPs weak leaving loading errors un checked. The load taken on board in 2013 was never going to work, and the load master training was not as rigorous as it is today.

If you are going to do it, keep your wits about you and monitor the loads personally.
Another Asinine comment. Thank you for telling us how do do our job. Not that I feel like engaging with an alarmist ignoramus like yourself, but every load is walked by the pilot with the loadmaster pre takeoff - its called "walking the load".

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Old 2nd Oct 2022, 19:00
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Originally Posted by Capn Rex Havoc View Post
43 Inches

I'm with National - and THEY NEVER "talk you into low valley approaches". What an asinine comment.


It was not at Kandahar. That was back in 2013 and just like the pax world, SOPS get changed as result of blood spilled. Lots of history of pax aircraft being loaded wrongly, or SOPs weak leaving loading errors un checked. The load taken on board in 2013 was never going to work, and the load master training was not as rigorous as it is today.

Another Asinine comment. Thank you for telling us how do do our job. Not that I feel like engaging with an alarmist ignoramus like yourself, but every load is walked by the pilot with the loadmaster pre takeoff - its called "walking the load".
Sorry but is 'Asinine' the word of the day at your preschool? You sound like you are trying to sound intelligent but its coming across as just plain stupid. I'm obviously not aimings tricks of the trade at experienced pilots. Its for new players as I said earlier. Maybe you should work on improving your vocabulary on those long flights....

Ps you are not the only freight pilot in the world... although you make it sound like you are. And National are not the only contract operators. BTW I was refering to a procedure that was originally in place in Afghanistan, and was more related to Hercs.
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Old 2nd Oct 2022, 19:31
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No 43,
Just admit when you are wrong.
have you ever flown freight in a wide body ? Or even flown a wide body ?
You were being unnecessary alarmist in your ďsageĒ advice for freighter pilots.

And who gives a toss about Herc Ops ? Nothing to do with contract freight Ops.
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Old 2nd Oct 2022, 22:03
  #24 (permalink)  
 
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747F is a very, very low risk job. And I just pub tested it. None of the pilots present knew anybody killed flying 747F but we all knew people killed in GA & the military.
UPS Airlines Flight 6 B747-400F on a cargo flight between Dubai and Cologne on 03 September 2010. In-flight fire caused the aircraft to crash, killing both crew members, the only people on board.
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Old 2nd Oct 2022, 22:35
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In sticking with the clear inference of my post, neither I, nor blokes at the pub knew those unlucky souls. Thereís many more freighter accidents we all know about, however, it ainít the Memphis Belle!

Something strange has happened to my country. It is a nanny state loaded with the fearful. Think Iíll go abroad and fly those knife-edge freighter missions.
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Old 3rd Oct 2022, 02:32
  #26 (permalink)  
 
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Out of the dozen or so pilots Iím seeing going to states to work itís the jet lag and lifestyle that is the biggest discussion item not RPGís.
US tax , state tax or worldwide tax while on a E3 visa ? Bases and gateways , 747 vs 777 vs 767 . Matching fleets with lifestyle/ pay and working out if they can return to their happy place on regular basis .
Watching blokes who thought they where retired , semi retired , seeing out their last few years topping up the super or long time FOís, all getting excited about this opportunity is fantastic .
Iím envious but my misses has confirmed again just now that Iím happier doing what Iím doing !
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Old 3rd Oct 2022, 03:42
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I would be seriously concerned going to the states now, the economy will tank especially if the USA is drawn further into the Ukraine mess and pilots will be furloughed as quickly as they have been recruited.
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Old 3rd Oct 2022, 05:59
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Originally Posted by Capn Rex Havoc View Post
No 43,
Just admit when you are wrong.
have you ever flown freight in a wide body ? Or even flown a wide body ?
You were being unnecessary alarmist in your “sage” advice for freighter pilots.

And who gives a toss about Herc Ops ? Nothing to do with contract freight Ops.
Not sure what you are arguing, but statistics are what they are, cargo ops are more dangerous than passenger ops for reasons I already listed. If you want to argue the sky isn't blue than fair enough, but again you are talking like you are the one that has no idea what goes on in these aircraft, or are reasonably new on them. I get it you or a mate flies for National, cant tarnish that name but it's just the nature of the job, and you are proving that pilots need more education on the dangers present.

https://flightsafety.org/asw-article...-of-attention/

Hull loss rate of 1.41 per 1000 cargo aircraft compared to 0.4 per 1000 for passenger on large jet transports. If you include Turboprops its even worse.

The same goes for land transport, you are more likely to be injured or be involved in an accident hauling in a truck over being a bus driver. Just different types of work and working conditions.

And as far as alarmism, its no different to saying to a VFR pilot they will die if they fly into IMC. I'll say again, you fly freight get to know the traps, it has more hazards than passenger ops and more threats that can catch you out if you are unwary. Contract freight is where you will find the greatest amount of hazards as the loads vary, the routes vary and so on.

Yet again, an ignorant fool getting caught out making comments on a subject he knows nothing about.

Give it up, the game is up, you are getting worse by the day.
And sorry to say that you are just a sad bitter individual with anger issues. I really suggest you go outside and leave the computer work for those who can handle it. It will be better for your mental health if you don't participate in PPRuNe for a while, you obviously take things too seriously and personally to move forward. The fact you jumped threads just to snipe at me shows a very sad existance, that you are fixated on what I say and that you have to debase me personally without contributing at all to the thread shows severe personality issues. Get help sir.
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Old 3rd Oct 2022, 16:54
  #29 (permalink)  
 
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43-
I was not arguing about the statistics of safety, though I think that you can cherry pick the stats. eg Freighter ops in Africa are probably deleterious to the accident stats.
I was pointing out the ERROR of your stated location of the National crash.
I was also pointing out that NOONE says to operate the aircraft like a military transport.
dont let them talk you into low valley approaches as safe.
I told you I work for National. Please tell me who you work for? I doubt you have had any wide body command experience, and I doubt that you are ex military. But I have no doubt that you are a self professed expert on all topics, from law, to finance, to psychology to medicine to politics to well just about everything.
And as far as alarmism, its no different to saying to a VFR pilot they will die if they fly into IMC.
Ah, yes it is.
Your "advice" on making sure one knows the risks of the trade, is condescending and insulting.

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Old 3rd Oct 2022, 21:37
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Originally Posted by Capn Rex Havoc View Post
43-
I was not arguing about the statistics of safety, though I think that you can cherry pick the stats. eg Freighter ops in Africa are probably deleterious to the accident stats.
I was pointing out the ERROR of your stated location of the National crash.
I was also pointing out that NOONE says to operate the aircraft like a military transport.
I told you I work for National. Please tell me who you work for? I doubt you have had any wide body command experience, and I doubt that you are ex military. But I have no doubt that you are a self professed expert on all topics, from law, to finance, to psychology to medicine to politics to well just about everything.
Ah, yes it is.
Your "advice" on making sure one knows the risks of the trade, is condescending and insulting.
Dude you have lost the plot, I never refered to National directly. You are nit picking essentially what was a statement on an in house joke from 2007 about what was being told to a number of pilots going into Afghanistan.

As for the National 747 crash, I sincerely apologise, it was at Bagram. Does not change that it happened.

As for who I work for or have worked for it would be very silly to post that on an annonymous forum in an Industry where 90% of operators have stipulations banning public comment.

The rest still stands, freight is more dangerous than passenger ops. If you read the airsafety notice, second highest accident rate area was North America. Africa as usual is just the highest.

Again it shows if you are a freighter pilot you are probably in need of some education on the traps of your own trade. The way you talk suggests you are a brick wall to this and wish to portray some form of rosy picture as to thev reality of the job. Pilots share information in the dangers, thats what we do. Keeping mum just means the same things happen over and over again. Air freight statistics show the same types of accidents being repeated regularly, loading errors, dangerous goods accidents etc..

I mean the National 747 crash happened in 2013, so 40 plus years after the 747 took flight your company learned that it needs to ensure freight is loaded correctly.... yeah they made changes after that, however how many other companies are yet to learn. Maybe its warning to look out for other hazards that have not resulted in a hull loss yet, as that is what you are saying triggers change at your outfit. "Your stuff is safe because we learn from our crashes..."

PS this thread is hypotheticals including expanded war around the globe, if you think an international freighter will be safe in a world conflict, well thats a delusion I cant fix. Although I already said that in my opinion global war is very unlikely.

Last edited by 43Inches; 3rd Oct 2022 at 22:22.
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Old 3rd Oct 2022, 23:46
  #31 (permalink)  
 
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Rex….. “But I have no doubt that you are a self professed expert on all topics, from law, to finance, to psychology to medicine to politics to well just about everything.”

So, basically just your typical Qantas pilot, then.
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Old 4th Oct 2022, 00:06
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One thing I have to ask though. If these contract jobs are so great why are they offering so much to take turboprop FOs from Australia. It sounds counter intuitive to what is being said when there should be thousands of applicants from the US lining up. I mean the pay is supposedly double at least what RJ pilots in the US earn.
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Old 4th Oct 2022, 02:09
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The US can't crew their own fleets right now 43' if you had an ear to the ground.
All major US airlines now recruiting as are (and have been for some time) their huge feeder regional operators - some of them actually parked-up or bankrupt now ... the huge Turkish delight is back on the field with DEC's as well as all the Middle Eastern and Indian major and Supp carriers... RyanAir; Jet2; Vietnam; Canada the list goes on.
Take your pick and Happy Landings
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Old 4th Oct 2022, 03:48
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43-
As for who I work for or have worked for it would be very silly to post that on an annonymous forum in an Industry where 90% of operators have stipulations banning public comment.
Don't need to know who you are working for - and don't care,

But clearly you have no wide body jet experience,
you are not ex military,

and I doubt that you are even an airline captain....




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Old 4th Oct 2022, 03:52
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Originally Posted by Capn Rex Havoc View Post
43-
Don't need to know who you are working for - and don't care,

But clearly you have no wide body jet experience,
you are not ex military,

and I doubt that you are even an airline captain....
And true to PPRuNe form your vast experience is used to debase me rather than offer some useful tips to new players. If you are a captain I pitty your FOs.

Last edited by 43Inches; 4th Oct 2022 at 04:08.
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Old 4th Oct 2022, 04:11
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Originally Posted by Chocks Away View Post
The US can't crew their own fleets right now 43' if you had an ear to the ground.
All major US airlines now recruiting as are (and have been for some time) their huge feeder regional operators - some of them actually parked-up or bankrupt now ... the huge Turkish delight is back on the field with DEC's as well as all the Middle Eastern and Indian major and Supp carriers... RyanAir; Jet2; Vietnam; Canada the list goes on.
Take your pick and Happy Landings
Thats why Im bemused people are choosing the freighters over just taking a cushy major airline position while the music plays.
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Old 5th Oct 2022, 02:55
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That's because the US widebody freighters are providing the E3 & Gleim / ATPL help and are higher paying than the US Regional / feeder operators, who had been doing it for some time already.
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Old 5th Oct 2022, 07:30
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Originally Posted by 43Inches View Post
I guess you havn't seen the actual pictures of the burning transports that were hit on approach until they changed the approach path to a high diving one specifically to avoid RPGs . Of course cant post pics as it was 'classified'. Then there was the 747 stall due to loading issues, and the Airbus that ended up in a minefield after being shot down by a SAM. But hey, you can believe hauling into hot zones is safe if you want.

You think these freight operaters will be safe in a full blown war when they stuff up regularly in peace time, with regular hull losses. If you are going to do it, keep your wits about you and monitor the loads personally. Theres a lot more traps than passenger bussing.
The 747 with loading 'issues' had nothing to do with being in a war zone, someone cocked up the loading, end of story.
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Old 5th Oct 2022, 08:25
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Originally Posted by AerialPerspective View Post
The 747 with loading 'issues' had nothing to do with being in a war zone, someone cocked up the loading, end of story.
I agree with that statement, but it was the nature of the load that led to it being loaded incorrectly. The load was Military vehicles, and being armored they are significantly heavier than standard vehicles including trucks. I believe they were 2 MRAPs (similar to Aussie Bushmasters) at 12 tons and 3 cougars at 18 tons vs a truck of the same dimensions weighing in at somewhere around 5 tons. Quite conceivable they restrained them in a similar way to the lighter vehicles, I have no idea, that's internal National stuff that Cpt Rex might know more about. NTSB highlights that the loadmaster did not have sufficient training in loads outside of ULDs, which as Cpt Rex said earlier has been rectified since. If the load was handled by military transports as normally would be the case they would have known how to restrain them. So in this case being employed to fly military equipment to/from a war zone was part of the issue. In any case it highlights the dangers of non-routine loads whether you think it was war zone related or not.

https://www.ntsb.gov/investigations/...ts/aar1501.pdf

Well worth a read if you are intending to do this kind of work, the Captain never inspected the load even after being told by the FO it had moved on the flight from Camp Bastion to Bagram, including a broken strap, and used words like he 'hoped' the loadmaster had beefed up the straps for the next flight.

He later stated, “those things are so…heavy you’d think, though, that they probably wouldn’t hardly move no matter what.”
One of the last statements from the captain before they departed.

And I'm not focusing on National here, a Newbie could be flying a transport in Africa or Russia or where ever, not even a heavy jet transport, anything really, if you are unsure get some advice. Its more for the newcomer to read this sort of stuff and be aware when something is amiss and double check it's been rectified. The crew were not heavily experienced and were caught out by an unusual cargo. Had the Captain at Bagram stopped to think why the cargo moved, or strap broke and sought further advice, maybe a conversation with some military loadmasters at Bagram for instance may have changed the outcome. Rather than just saying it was 'a loading issue'.

It also sounds a like a lot of new low experienced crew are moving into these jobs, so even more reason to keep your wits about. No different to what is happening in the lower ends of airlines as well, at least in the airline game its very repetitive with not a lot of variation from the normal.

Last edited by 43Inches; 5th Oct 2022 at 08:35.
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Old 5th Oct 2022, 15:16
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Hey 4.3 inches,

You seem to know everything about everything. What part of Melbourne are you from?
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