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Network Aviation Mass Exodus

Old 11th Sep 2022, 10:24
  #41 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Transition Layer View Post
Calm down people! Think you missed my point, or perhaps I didn’t explain it well.

QF needs to pay Mainline SOs more than subsidiary FOs in order to attract the experienced and proven operators within the group to move to the back seat. I wasn’t talking about the responsibilities of the job as such - I’ve done both, I know which one is harder! Without a little pay rise, why else would you move, given slow progression in Mainline and lower job satisfaction as an SO.

By doing this, Qantas then creates a hole at the bottom and will feed the new Cadets into QLink, NAA, etc. Once they have 5 years jet/turboprop time they too might choose to jump to mainline as SOs. The cycle repeats.
I respectfully disagree. QF needs to pay narrowbody FOs more than SOs as these roles are more safety critical and require significantly more experience than a SO.

The position of SO should be the lowest entry level position, attracting the lowest remuneration, just like it is with JQ 787 and VA 777 prior to Covid. From there you graduate to a regional turboprop or narrow body jet and so on and so on.

How it is currently done in QF where SO seems to be a highly paid role is unique within the aviation industry world wide considering you do virtually nothing………
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Old 11th Sep 2022, 11:02
  #42 (permalink)  
 
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Can they not just do away with the SO? I mean, I don’t know many airlines globally that invest so much in such a rank. Invest more in FOs, makes succession planning much smoother as time rolls
on.

I assume it’s all about cost right?
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Old 11th Sep 2022, 11:56
  #43 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Wizofoz View Post
Normally?
easyJet, Ryanair,Emirates.... Cadets graduate to the RHS of the main fleet, and do just fine.
Hahaha...yeah normally. I never said that a cadet could not go straight to the RHS. I think cadets can make just fine FOs with an appropriate amount of training.

Tell me, does Easy Jet, Ryanair or EK have Second Officers? If they did, I can almost guarantee that's where a cadet would cut their teeth!
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Old 11th Sep 2022, 12:09
  #44 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by aussieflyboy View Post
Im not suggest anyone should earn less chump. I’m stating that Network pilots should be earning more. Are you struggling with that concept?
Talk about digging the hole deeper, you are in fact suggesting some should earn less for doing the same job, chimp.
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Old 11th Sep 2022, 12:15
  #45 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Australopithecus View Post
What is absurd is that narrow body jet captains sometimes get paid so little. Don’t fall into the trap of criticising what others make to somehow justify accepting crap T & Cs. QF S/Os have to languish in that role for longer than would be considered fair, and none of them are low time cadets. All of them have paid dues somewhere else before getting hired.

QF pilots may have a bad rep with pilots from other majors. I cannot imagine caring about that. Especially from some CX ****.
I couldn't agree more. I don't dismiss the SOs who enjoy the Life of Riley. It's merely a humorous observation that is peculiar to Qantas. I put it down to the transition of Qantas from a legacy airline to a low-cost carrier.
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Old 11th Sep 2022, 14:07
  #46 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by davidclarke View Post
I respectfully disagree. QF needs to pay narrowbody FOs more than SOs as these roles are more safety critical and require significantly more experience than a SO.
That will be inevitable. Once the A350 has a confirmed arrival the new hire SO wage drops significantly. Any jet FO in a subsidiary will be paid more. And then loads more once they get to Captain in one of those subsidiaries. Those who do come to mainline won’t be staying as lifestyle SOs anymore, they’ll be taking the first upgrade available.
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Old 11th Sep 2022, 14:22
  #47 (permalink)  
 
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I respectfully disagree. QF needs to pay narrowbody FOs more than SOs as these roles are more safety critical and require significantly more experience than a SO.

The position of SO should be the lowest entry level position, attracting the lowest remuneration, just like it is with JQ 787 and VA 777 prior to Covid. From there you graduate to a regional turboprop or narrow body jet and so on and so on.

How it is currently done in QF where SO seems to be a highly paid role is unique within the aviation industry world wide considering you do virtually nothing……
And this is where QF management have dug themselves a large hole. If group was united and pilots had a career path they could move around types and could pay the SO a lower salary as people with experience could move into other roles and be paid what they really should be paid. However the problem they have now is people are leaving poorly paid experienced roles to take a SO position because it's the only way to get some career stability and get paid well.
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Old 11th Sep 2022, 22:46
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Originally Posted by ActiveLooker View Post
Agreed!
Transition Layer is delusional! SO time is worth nothing elsewhere in the World. Let’s see who is more valued when the QF Group bury on into the ground. Network A320 F/Os will be taken well before a QF SO.
I doubt it. You forget most of the SOs have come from other airlines with a bunch of experience - they’re not all cadets. They were sitting in your seat prior to joining QF.
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Old 12th Sep 2022, 00:00
  #49 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by ScepticalOptomist View Post
I doubt it. You forget most of the SOs have come from other airlines with a bunch of experience - they’re not all cadets. They were sitting in your seat prior to joining QF.
True for some, but, most operators stipulate current on type within 18-24 months. SO roles aren’t recognised OS the same as at QF.
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Old 12th Sep 2022, 02:09
  #50 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by ActiveLooker View Post
True for some, but, most operators stipulate current on type within 18-24 months. SO roles aren’t recognised OS the same as at QF.

how is that relevant? Why would any SO go looking overseas? You realise if QF ‘bury it in’ that’s NAA gone as well yeah!

who deserves what is irrelevant. The only relevant point is ‘you are what you negotiate’. The QF EA has been around for ages. The network ‘agreement’ was some managers wet dream at a time of pilot oversupply. Don’t direct your anger at the QF pilots. If you’re really that pissed you need someone to blame, look at the NAA management.

it may be a hard concept for some of you bitter folk to digest, but you’ll struggle to find a Qf pilot who DOESNT want your terms increased. For a multitude of reasons, one being it’s what you deserve for your work and experience and another being it removed the ability to constantly play one group off against another. We’re all sick of seeing our skills and qualifications dragged d through the mud. Why on earth woukd anyone want to see another pilots pay/terms squashed. Just ludicrous.
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Old 12th Sep 2022, 03:44
  #51 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by cloudsurfng View Post
how is that relevant? Why would any SO go looking overseas? You realise if QF ‘bury it in’ that’s NAA gone as well yeah!

who deserves what is irrelevant. The only relevant point is ‘you are what you negotiate’. The QF EA has been around for ages. The network ‘agreement’ was some managers wet dream at a time of pilot oversupply. Don’t direct your anger at the QF pilots. If you’re really that pissed you need someone to blame, look at the NAA management.

it may be a hard concept for some of you bitter folk to digest, but you’ll struggle to find a Qf pilot who DOESNT want your terms increased. For a multitude of reasons, one being it’s what you deserve for your work and experience and another being it removed the ability to constantly play one group off against another. We’re all sick of seeing our skills and qualifications dragged d through the mud. Why on earth woukd anyone want to see another pilots pay/terms squashed. Just ludicrous.


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Old 12th Sep 2022, 08:34
  #52 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by cloudsurfng View Post
how is that relevant? Why would any SO go looking overseas?...
perhaps we should be asking the 6 QF SO's that are on the most recent Atlas course?
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Old 12th Sep 2022, 08:46
  #53 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by abaderrr View Post
perhaps we should be asking the 6 QF SO's that are on the most recent Atlas course?
ok. And what was their previous background? Above posters imply SO’s are all useless sacks that don’t know the first thing about aviation. As TL said…plenty of great pilots with heaps of experience!
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Old 12th Sep 2022, 09:07
  #54 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by cloudsurfng View Post
ok. And what was their previous background? Above posters imply SO’s are all useless sacks that don’t know the first thing about aviation. As TL said…plenty of great pilots with heaps of experience!
As Extra Shot gobbled off, QF SOs used to occupy my seat. I’ve had wide body command for 25yrs. Anyone with my experience taking an SO gig at QF is not true to him/her self
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Old 12th Sep 2022, 09:30
  #55 (permalink)  
 
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Fine. Enjoy your COS18 then and your endless rounds of quarantine. Keep telling yourself that being true to yourself is more important than having a life.
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Old 12th Sep 2022, 09:36
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As Extra Shot gobbled off, QF SOs used to occupy my seat. I’ve had wide body command for 25yrs. Anyone with my experience taking an SO gig at QF is not true to him/her self
Or their identity isn't in their job title................................
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Old 12th Sep 2022, 09:40
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Originally Posted by neville_nobody View Post
Or their identity isn't in their job title................................
bingo. Maybe they’re true to their family instead.
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Old 12th Sep 2022, 14:14
  #58 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by cloudsurfng View Post
ok. And what was their previous background? Above posters imply SO’s are all useless sacks that don’t know the first thing about aviation. As TL said…plenty of great pilots with heaps of experience!
Not to mention the new bed turndown service skills QF teach them
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Old 12th Sep 2022, 23:45
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Originally Posted by ActiveLooker View Post
Not to mention the new bed turndown service skills QF teach them

so bitter. Bitter that after a ‘25 year wide body command’ an SO (who may also have been a WB captain) earns more for doing less.

instead of focussing on others, see what you can do about your own situation. You could always chuck an application in if you’re that concerned.
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Old 12th Sep 2022, 23:55
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Originally Posted by cloudsurfng View Post
so bitter. Bitter that after a ‘25 year wide body command’ an SO (who may also have been a WB captain) earns more for doing less.

instead of focussing on others, see what you can do about your own situation. You could always chuck an application in if you’re that concerned.
not bitter mate. I feel for the guys I know at Network. I wouldn’t return to Oz if you paid me double. All I hear about is how bad the boys get treated. The pay structure and SOs is just an example
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