Network Aviation Mass Exodus
Any chance of a reply, chief? aussieflyboy
Last edited by aseriesofleftturns; 8th Sep 2022 at 17:47.
Or the QF 737's that are sharing routes with NWK 320's to Broome, Hedland, Karatha, Kalgoorlie, Chrissy Creek, Newman, Ginbata etc?
Any chance of a reply, chief? aussieflyboy
Any chance of a reply, chief? aussieflyboy
I think it’s quite reasonable that they should be earning the same salary. I also think a QF A321 pilot should earn slightly more then a Network 320 pilot as it is a larger aircraft. Obviously this means Network Pilots need to understand their actual worth and make an effort to improve the current EA.
Thread Starter
Im not sure what your after here boss? Do you not think Network 320 Pilots should earn the same as a Mainline 737 pilot?
I think it’s quite reasonable that they should be earning the same salary. I also think a QF A321 pilot should earn slightly more then a Network 320 pilot as it is a larger aircraft. Obviously this means Network Pilots need to understand their actual worth and make an effort to improve the current EA.
I think it’s quite reasonable that they should be earning the same salary. I also think a QF A321 pilot should earn slightly more then a Network 320 pilot as it is a larger aircraft. Obviously this means Network Pilots need to understand their actual worth and make an effort to improve the current EA.
I think the name change that “holdboy” suggested it quite fitting. Why is it that you QF flogs think pay is all about weight. Major carriers around the globe get fleet pay. Same job, same pay I believe. Do you get a boner when you drive your landcruiser past a mini? Doesn’t matter which Airbus you drive. 319/320/321/330/340 same. Just because an operator chooses the route doesn’t mean the pilots should be paid differently.
Pay isn’t about size, weight, passenger capacity, routes, complexity of the aircraft etc.
It comes down to legality and free market economics.
Does the contract comply with the applicable legislation? And then to supply and demand, will there be enough qualified and willing workers to perform the job under these conditions?
If there aren’t then you have grounds to improve conditions. If there is an oversupply then reductions and cuts will be sought.
Do you think mining companies want to pay six figure salaries for FIFO cleaners? It’s because they need to, not out of the goodness of their hearts.
It comes down to legality and free market economics.
Does the contract comply with the applicable legislation? And then to supply and demand, will there be enough qualified and willing workers to perform the job under these conditions?
If there aren’t then you have grounds to improve conditions. If there is an oversupply then reductions and cuts will be sought.
Do you think mining companies want to pay six figure salaries for FIFO cleaners? It’s because they need to, not out of the goodness of their hearts.
Pay isn’t about size, weight, passenger capacity, routes, complexity of the aircraft etc.
It comes down to legality and free market economics.
Does the contract comply with the applicable legislation? And then to supply and demand, will there be enough qualified and willing workers to perform the job under these conditions?
If there aren’t then you have grounds to improve conditions. If there is an oversupply then reductions and cuts will be sought.
Do you think mining companies want to pay six figure salaries for FIFO cleaners? It’s because they need to, not out of the goodness of their hearts.
It comes down to legality and free market economics.
Does the contract comply with the applicable legislation? And then to supply and demand, will there be enough qualified and willing workers to perform the job under these conditions?
If there aren’t then you have grounds to improve conditions. If there is an oversupply then reductions and cuts will be sought.
Do you think mining companies want to pay six figure salaries for FIFO cleaners? It’s because they need to, not out of the goodness of their hearts.
Not so sure about that...
Except there isn’t a true “free market” and QF distort the system with cadets. Experience and qualifications have nothing to do with it when someone with no actual flying experience gets a 6 figure job ahead of people who do.
The other contentious issue in aviation is the ability to generate revenue. This is what really killed the regionals in the US. The pay was so low they couldn’t get anyone but the same time there wasn’t a lot of margin to pay more because the planes really don’t generate enough revenue. Then you get to the point where routes might as well go back to the mainline because they have the ability to fly the route putting yourself out of business.
This is the point where this whole outsourcing model implodes as there is a line out the door for mainline yet the regionals can’t pay enough to crew their flights.
The other contentious issue in aviation is the ability to generate revenue. This is what really killed the regionals in the US. The pay was so low they couldn’t get anyone but the same time there wasn’t a lot of margin to pay more because the planes really don’t generate enough revenue. Then you get to the point where routes might as well go back to the mainline because they have the ability to fly the route putting yourself out of business.
This is the point where this whole outsourcing model implodes as there is a line out the door for mainline yet the regionals can’t pay enough to crew their flights.
Thread Starter
I do, you obviously don’t. This is where Australian pilots are so misguided. There is much more in aviation than Qantas Flog. Perhaps you need to spread your wings and explore it some time.
If NAA pilots threatened PIA and demanded an A330 wage it would get rejected by Fairwork. If however they compared themselves to a 737 pilot as it’s a similar sized aircraft on similar routes then they would stand a chance. Surely you see that.
Thread Starter
The petty name calling shows you’re some sort of Caravan King that keeps getting rejected from the Aus Airlines. Relax mate.
If NAA pilots threatened PIA and demanded an A330 wage it would get rejected by Fairwork. If however they compared themselves to a 737 pilot as it’s a similar sized aircraft on similar routes then they would stand a chance. Surely you see that.
If NAA pilots threatened PIA and demanded an A330 wage it would get rejected by Fairwork. If however they compared themselves to a 737 pilot as it’s a similar sized aircraft on similar routes then they would stand a chance. Surely you see that.
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90% of the SOs I fly with these days have extensive jet or turboprop experience, which IMHO justifies the pay of an SO being above a NAA FO. In fact many of them leave the subsidiaries to join Mainline, even if it means handing back a stripe or two.
The latest iteration of the QF Cadet Program will ensure feed into NAA, Qlink, NJS (or whatever the 717/220 operation is called). I’d be very surprised if any go straight into the back seat at Mainline.
QF cadets with 250hrs have not flowed directly into Mainline for almost 20 years, so I’m not sure how relevant it is to today’s Ts and Cs.
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90% of the SOs I fly with these days have extensive jet or turboprop experience, which IMHO justifies the pay of an SO being above a NAA FO. In fact many of them leave the subsidiaries to join Mainline, even if it means handing back a stripe or two.
The latest iteration of the QF Cadet Program will ensure feed into NAA, Qlink, NJS (or whatever the 717/220 operation is called). I’d be very surprised if any go straight into the back seat at Mainline.
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90% of the SOs I fly with these days have extensive jet or turboprop experience, which IMHO justifies the pay of an SO being above a NAA FO. In fact many of them leave the subsidiaries to join Mainline, even if it means handing back a stripe or two.
The latest iteration of the QF Cadet Program will ensure feed into NAA, Qlink, NJS (or whatever the 717/220 operation is called). I’d be very surprised if any go straight into the back seat at Mainline.
You’re kidding right? An SO with extensive jet or turboprop time deserves more than a narrow body FO….that’s the most insane thing I’ve heard all day. We all know that it happens, but that is purely based on legacy conditions.
A narrow body FO has significantly more responsibility, especially flying 4 sector days in challenging conditions than an SO ever will!
I actually wonder sometimes if our mainline colleagues actually do want the subsidiaries conditions raised or do they get some kind of kick out of seeing everyone on lower conditions…..
Thread Starter
You’re kidding right? An SO with extensive jet or turboprop time deserves more than a narrow body FO….that’s the most insane thing I’ve heard all day. We all know that it happens, but that is purely based on legacy conditions.
A narrow body FO has significantly more responsibility, especially flying 4 sector days in challenging conditions than an SO ever will!
I actually wonder sometimes if our mainline colleagues actually do want the subsidiaries conditions raised or do they get some kind of kick out of seeing everyone on lower conditions…..
A narrow body FO has significantly more responsibility, especially flying 4 sector days in challenging conditions than an SO ever will!
I actually wonder sometimes if our mainline colleagues actually do want the subsidiaries conditions raised or do they get some kind of kick out of seeing everyone on lower conditions…..
Transition Layer is delusional! SO time is worth nothing elsewhere in the World. Let’s see who is more valued when the QF Group bury on into the ground. Network A320 F/Os will be taken well before a QF SO.
Calm down people! Think you missed my point, or perhaps I didn’t explain it well.
QF needs to pay Mainline SOs more than subsidiary FOs in order to attract the experienced and proven operators within the group to move to the back seat. I wasn’t talking about the responsibilities of the job as such - I’ve done both, I know which one is harder! Without a little pay rise, why else would you move, given slow progression in Mainline and lower job satisfaction as an SO.
By doing this, Qantas then creates a hole at the bottom and will feed the new Cadets into QLink, NAA, etc. Once they have 5 years jet/turboprop time they too might choose to jump to mainline as SOs. The cycle repeats.
QF needs to pay Mainline SOs more than subsidiary FOs in order to attract the experienced and proven operators within the group to move to the back seat. I wasn’t talking about the responsibilities of the job as such - I’ve done both, I know which one is harder! Without a little pay rise, why else would you move, given slow progression in Mainline and lower job satisfaction as an SO.
By doing this, Qantas then creates a hole at the bottom and will feed the new Cadets into QLink, NAA, etc. Once they have 5 years jet/turboprop time they too might choose to jump to mainline as SOs. The cycle repeats.
Normally you would put cadets in the backseat and let them use a radio here and there. Then after a couple years send them to a subsidiary to get some real experience. Then after 5+ years of regional flying move back to long-haul. It is absurd that a SO can earn more money then a NB jet captain but it is a result of Qantas’s style of outsourcing anything and everything with all the seperate silos.
Thread Starter
Normally you would put cadets in the backseat and let them use a radio here and there. Then after a couple years send them to a subsidiary to get some real experience. Then after 5+ years of regional flying move back to long-haul. It is absurd that a SO can earn more money then a NB jet captain but it is a result of Qantas’s style of outsourcing anything and everything with all the seperate silos.
Thats why Aussie’s from QF have a bad rep with majors overseas. QF talk the talk but their operators are average due to minimal experience and exposure to other ways of thought. Big fish in little bowls!
What is absurd is that narrow body jet captains sometimes get paid so little. Don’t fall into the trap of criticising what others make to somehow justify accepting crap T & Cs. QF S/Os have to languish in that role for longer than would be considered fair, and none of them are low time cadets. All of them have paid dues somewhere else before getting hired.
QF pilots may have a bad rep with pilots from other majors. I cannot imagine caring about that. Especially from some CX ****.
QF pilots may have a bad rep with pilots from other majors. I cannot imagine caring about that. Especially from some CX ****.
Normally you would put cadets in the backseat and let them use a radio here and there. Then after a couple years send them to a subsidiary to get some real experience. Then after 5+ years of regional flying move back to long-haul. It is absurd that a SO can earn more money then a NB jet captain but it is a result of Qantas’s style of outsourcing anything and everything with all the seperate silos.
easyJet, Ryanair,Emirates.... Cadets graduate to the RHS of the main fleet, and do just fine.