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Old 8th Sep 2022, 14:54
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Originally Posted by aseriesofleftturns View Post
And when Network are flying 320's to Bali, Singapore, Brisbane, Adelaide, Darwin (already do), Cairns etc, champ?
Or the QF 737's that are sharing routes with NWK 320's to Broome, Hedland, Karatha, Kalgoorlie, Chrissy Creek, Newman, Ginbata etc?

Any chance of a reply, chief? aussieflyboy

Last edited by aseriesofleftturns; 8th Sep 2022 at 18:47.
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Old 9th Sep 2022, 01:16
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Originally Posted by aseriesofleftturns View Post
Or the QF 737's that are sharing routes with NWK 320's to Broome, Hedland, Karatha, Kalgoorlie, Chrissy Creek, Newman, Ginbata etc?

Any chance of a reply, chief? aussieflyboy
Im not sure what your after here boss? Do you not think Network 320 Pilots should earn the same as a Mainline 737 pilot?

I think itís quite reasonable that they should be earning the same salary. I also think a QF A321 pilot should earn slightly more then a Network 320 pilot as it is a larger aircraft. Obviously this means Network Pilots need to understand their actual worth and make an effort to improve the current EA.
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Old 9th Sep 2022, 01:23
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Originally Posted by aussieflyboy View Post
Im not sure what your after here boss? Do you not think Network 320 Pilots should earn the same as a Mainline 737 pilot?

I think itís quite reasonable that they should be earning the same salary. I also think a QF A321 pilot should earn slightly more then a Network 320 pilot as it is a larger aircraft. Obviously this means Network Pilots need to understand their actual worth and make an effort to improve the current EA.
I think the name change that ďholdboyĒ suggested it quite fitting. Why is it that you QF flogs think pay is all about weight. Major carriers around the globe get fleet pay. Same job, same pay I believe. Do you get a boner when you drive your landcruiser past a mini? Doesnít matter which Airbus you drive. 319/320/321/330/340 same. Just because an operator chooses the route doesnít mean the pilots should be paid differently.
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Old 9th Sep 2022, 01:44
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Originally Posted by ActiveLooker View Post
I think the name change that ďholdboyĒ suggested it quite fitting. Why is it that you QF flogs think pay is all about weight. Major carriers around the globe get fleet pay. Same job, same pay I believe. Do you get a boner when you drive your landcruiser past a mini? Doesnít matter which Airbus you drive. 319/320/321/330/340 same. Just because an operator chooses the route doesnít mean the pilots should be paid differently.
So you think itís a reasonable request for an NAA Captain to be demanding the same pay as a QF A330/350 pilot? Iíd encourage that as itís an overall improvement to Aus pilot wages however I think that would be an uphill battle
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Old 9th Sep 2022, 01:54
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Pay isnít about size, weight, passenger capacity, routes, complexity of the aircraft etc.

It comes down to legality and free market economics.

Does the contract comply with the applicable legislation? And then to supply and demand, will there be enough qualified and willing workers to perform the job under these conditions?

If there arenít then you have grounds to improve conditions. If there is an oversupply then reductions and cuts will be sought.

Do you think mining companies want to pay six figure salaries for FIFO cleaners? Itís because they need to, not out of the goodness of their hearts.

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Old 9th Sep 2022, 01:58
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Originally Posted by dr dre View Post
Pay isnít about size, weight, passenger capacity, routes, complexity of the aircraft etc.

It comes down to legality and free market economics.

Does the contract comply with the applicable legislation? And then to supply and demand, will there be enough qualified and willing workers to perform the job under these conditions?

If there arenít then you have grounds to improve conditions. If there is an oversupply then reductions and cuts will be sought.

Do you think mining companies want to pay six figure salaries for FIFO cleaners? Itís because they need to, not out of the goodness of their hearts.
NAA Pilots must have the best airline job in Australia. With such a low pay they must have a long list of pilots on the hold file. Supply and demand after allÖ
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Old 9th Sep 2022, 02:10
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Originally Posted by dr dre View Post
Pay isnít about size, weight, passenger capacity, routes, complexity of the aircraft etc. It comes down to legality and free market economics. If there is an oversupply then reductions and cuts will be sought.
Based on this analogy QF pilots would be up for a rude awakening...1700 SO applications at last count, this while the rest of the group cannot fill their seats. So can we expect QF pay reductions versus pay increases for the rest?

Not so sure about that...
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Old 9th Sep 2022, 02:18
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Except there isn’t a true “free market” and QF distort the system with cadets. Experience and qualifications have nothing to do with it when someone with no actual flying experience gets a 6 figure job ahead of people who do.

The other contentious issue in aviation is the ability to generate revenue. This is what really killed the regionals in the US. The pay was so low they couldn’t get anyone but the same time there wasn’t a lot of margin to pay more because the planes really don’t generate enough revenue. Then you get to the point where routes might as well go back to the mainline because they have the ability to fly the route putting yourself out of business.

This is the point where this whole outsourcing model implodes as there is a line out the door for mainline yet the regionals can’t pay enough to crew their flights.
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Old 9th Sep 2022, 02:31
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Originally Posted by aussieflyboy View Post
So you think itís a reasonable request for an NAA Captain to be demanding the same pay as a QF A330/350 pilot? Iíd encourage that as itís an overall improvement to Aus pilot wages however I think that would be an uphill battle
I do, you obviously donít. This is where Australian pilots are so misguided. There is much more in aviation than Qantas Flog. Perhaps you need to spread your wings and explore it some time.
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Old 9th Sep 2022, 02:37
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Originally Posted by ActiveLooker View Post
I do, you obviously donít. This is where Australian pilots are so misguided. There is much more in aviation than Qantas Flog. Perhaps you need to spread your wings and explore it some time.
The petty name calling shows youíre some sort of Caravan King that keeps getting rejected from the Aus Airlines. Relax mate.

If NAA pilots threatened PIA and demanded an A330 wage it would get rejected by Fairwork. If however they compared themselves to a 737 pilot as itís a similar sized aircraft on similar routes then they would stand a chance. Surely you see that.
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Old 9th Sep 2022, 02:41
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Originally Posted by aussieflyboy View Post
The petty name calling shows youíre some sort of Caravan King that keeps getting rejected from the Aus Airlines. Relax mate.

If NAA pilots threatened PIA and demanded an A330 wage it would get rejected by Fairwork. If however they compared themselves to a 737 pilot as itís a similar sized aircraft on similar routes then they would stand a chance. Surely you see that.
itís not about me mate, this is about my friends putting up with Australian operators and pilots like you that think you deserve more. You are certainly wrong about me. Had an extensive Career in Oz before moving overseas. Pilot use to stand together and then they didnít. I hope you werenít one of them
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Old 9th Sep 2022, 02:55
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Originally Posted by aussieflyboy View Post
The petty name calling shows youíre some sort...
...and then you continue to insult...
Originally Posted by aussieflyboy View Post
...chump...
Remember when you called someone a "Chump" - a foolish or easily deceived person (from the dictionary that is)

Coat, Hat, Door
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Old 10th Sep 2022, 02:20
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Originally Posted by neville_nobody View Post
Except there isnít a true ďfree marketĒ and QF distort the system with cadets. Experience and qualifications have nothing to do with it when someone with no actual flying experience gets a 6 figure job ahead of people who do.
QF cadets with 250hrs have not flowed directly into Mainline for almost 20 years, so Iím not sure how relevant it is to todayís Ts and Cs.
.
90% of the SOs I fly with these days have extensive jet or turboprop experience, which IMHO justifies the pay of an SO being above a NAA FO. In fact many of them leave the subsidiaries to join Mainline, even if it means handing back a stripe or two.

The latest iteration of the QF Cadet Program will ensure feed into NAA, Qlink, NJS (or whatever the 717/220 operation is called). Iíd be very surprised if any go straight into the back seat at Mainline.
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Old 11th Sep 2022, 05:25
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Originally Posted by Transition Layer View Post
QF cadets with 250hrs have not flowed directly into Mainline for almost 20 years, so Iím not sure how relevant it is to todayís Ts and Cs.
.
90% of the SOs I fly with these days have extensive jet or turboprop experience, which IMHO justifies the pay of an SO being above a NAA FO. In fact many of them leave the subsidiaries to join Mainline, even if it means handing back a stripe or two.

The latest iteration of the QF Cadet Program will ensure feed into NAA, Qlink, NJS (or whatever the 717/220 operation is called). Iíd be very surprised if any go straight into the back seat at Mainline.

Youíre kidding right? An SO with extensive jet or turboprop time deserves more than a narrow body FOÖ.thatís the most insane thing Iíve heard all day. We all know that it happens, but that is purely based on legacy conditions.

A narrow body FO has significantly more responsibility, especially flying 4 sector days in challenging conditions than an SO ever will!

I actually wonder sometimes if our mainline colleagues actually do want the subsidiaries conditions raised or do they get some kind of kick out of seeing everyone on lower conditionsÖ..
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Old 11th Sep 2022, 05:34
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Originally Posted by davidclarke View Post
Youíre kidding right? An SO with extensive jet or turboprop time deserves more than a narrow body FOÖ.thatís the most insane thing Iíve heard all day. We all know that it happens, but that is purely based on legacy conditions.

A narrow body FO has significantly more responsibility, especially flying 4 sector days in challenging conditions than an SO ever will!

I actually wonder sometimes if our mainline colleagues actually do want the subsidiaries conditions raised or do they get some kind of kick out of seeing everyone on lower conditionsÖ..
Agreed!
Transition Layer is delusional! SO time is worth nothing elsewhere in the World. Letís see who is more valued when the QF Group bury on into the ground. Network A320 F/Os will be taken well before a QF SO.
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Old 11th Sep 2022, 07:55
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Calm down people! Think you missed my point, or perhaps I didnít explain it well.

QF needs to pay Mainline SOs more than subsidiary FOs in order to attract the experienced and proven operators within the group to move to the back seat. I wasnít talking about the responsibilities of the job as such - Iíve done both, I know which one is harder! Without a little pay rise, why else would you move, given slow progression in Mainline and lower job satisfaction as an SO.

By doing this, Qantas then creates a hole at the bottom and will feed the new Cadets into QLink, NAA, etc. Once they have 5 years jet/turboprop time they too might choose to jump to mainline as SOs. The cycle repeats.
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Old 11th Sep 2022, 08:40
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Normally you would put cadets in the backseat and let them use a radio here and there. Then after a couple years send them to a subsidiary to get some real experience. Then after 5+ years of regional flying move back to long-haul. It is absurd that a SO can earn more money then a NB jet captain but it is a result of Qantasís style of outsourcing anything and everything with all the seperate silos.

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Old 11th Sep 2022, 08:54
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Originally Posted by WillieTheWimp View Post
Normally you would put cadets in the backseat and let them use a radio here and there. Then after a couple years send them to a subsidiary to get some real experience. Then after 5+ years of regional flying move back to long-haul. It is absurd that a SO can earn more money then a NB jet captain but it is a result of Qantasís style of outsourcing anything and everything with all the seperate silos.
thru dat!
Thats why Aussieís from QF have a bad rep with majors overseas. QF talk the talk but their operators are average due to minimal experience and exposure to other ways of thought. Big fish in little bowls!
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Old 11th Sep 2022, 09:35
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What is absurd is that narrow body jet captains sometimes get paid so little. Don’t fall into the trap of criticising what others make to somehow justify accepting crap T & Cs. QF S/Os have to languish in that role for longer than would be considered fair, and none of them are low time cadets. All of them have paid dues somewhere else before getting hired.

QF pilots may have a bad rep with pilots from other majors. I cannot imagine caring about that. Especially from some CX ****.
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Old 11th Sep 2022, 09:36
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Originally Posted by WillieTheWimp View Post
Normally you would put cadets in the backseat and let them use a radio here and there. Then after a couple years send them to a subsidiary to get some real experience. Then after 5+ years of regional flying move back to long-haul. It is absurd that a SO can earn more money then a NB jet captain but it is a result of Qantasís style of outsourcing anything and everything with all the seperate silos.
Normally?
easyJet, Ryanair,Emirates.... Cadets graduate to the RHS of the main fleet, and do just fine.
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