Australia, New Zealand & the Pacific Airline and RPT Rumours & News in Australia, enZed and the Pacific

Air NZ Jet

Old 11th Jul 2023, 04:21
  #141 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2022
Location: OZZIE M8
Posts: 11
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like on 1 Post
100% Agree with EZilcho, this is one of the reasons why I didn't bother to go ahead and accept my offer with ANZ. The progression is seriously slow and NZ is just getting worse. I never understood flight instructors during my training seeing ANZ as the big golden ticket when there's better opportunities overseas, but if your wanting to raise a family here by all means necessary go for it. However I would never spend 6+ years on the turbo props at ANZ link.
777xpilot is offline  
Old 11th Jul 2023, 06:43
  #142 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Dec 2016
Location: World
Posts: 81
Received 3 Likes on 2 Posts
Originally Posted by ruralaviator
As the 20 year old
Incredibly sage words from Elzilcho above.

It is incredibly difficult to plan your entire life out in advance, and this career is a real buggar with most airlines rewarding time spent in company along with being very quick to give people the boot or stop recruiting in downturns.

At your age, I had a very different idea of what I wanted out of life to what I do now. The same might be said for yourself, I’ve flown in Europe with a couple of lads who got a jet command at 26/27 and now face the prospect of little to no change or progression for the majority of their working life. They find it incredibly difficult to leave because to go elsewhere would be cutting their salary in half. Obviously in Air NZ there’s fleet variety, but as EZ said, NZ is not the be-all-end-all and you might gain some life satisfaction by giving it a crack overseas. If you have a passport that lets you work in the EU, there are some great contracts, fantastic places to live and plenty of opportunities for travel. It’s not utopia, and the work is tough sometimes, but it’s all about what you want from life.

My advice is always to try and hone in what you enjoy about flying and what you want from life. The links is arguably the most fun airline flying you can have, shooting visuals into uncontrolled ADs etc, but you exchange fun for a low salary and some really long days. If you’ve got roots in a region where there’s a base (Napier, Nelson, Chch etc) it might work perfectly for you. If travelling and seeing the world is at the forefront of your mind then perhaps a jet job in Europe would work better, decent pay, cheaper cost of living and the variety of Europe on your doorstep.

Its hard not to want to forward plan, as a species it’s what us pilots like doing. However, at 20 you can’t be thinking “well it’s 24 years to command at NZ jet so I better join the links by May 3rd 2034 or I’m screwed”. So much of this job (and getting the job you want) is about luck and timing. The industry changes year on year, the entry requirements change and the attrition rate at the top (what your whole career depends on) changes too.

Its a toughy mate, but the good news is the job is largely great no matter what you choose. Best of luck 👍🏼
Seosan is offline  
The following users liked this post:
Old 11th Jul 2023, 06:59
  #143 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2022
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 85
Likes: 0
Received 18 Likes on 10 Posts
Why don't youngish or not so youngish NZs work in Australia for a few years
get Australian Citizenship (keep NZ citizenship) , thus being eligible for the massive amount of jobs in USA via E3

Think , it was recently made easier for NZs in Australia to get citizenship (did they reduce the four year time period)

With basic licences you would need a bit of flight time to make yourself competitive for the NZ links , would think

Looks like still 4 years in Australia on Special Category Visa, made easier this year (possibly don't have to go through permanent resident stepping stone)

Do you guys actually realise how short so many of the Aussie TP/Jet operators are atm ?
Makiko is offline  
Old 11th Jul 2023, 09:15
  #144 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Ardmore, New Zealand
Posts: 85
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by ElZilcho
Purely from a career progression and financial POV, you want to get an Air NZ Seniority number at the first opportunity if that’s where you ultimately wish to end up.

Doing an OE and flying Jets around the world make for great life experiences and work stories, but count for absolutely zero in the grand scheme of things at a seniority based legacy carrier and can be the difference between retiring as an FO or getting a Widebody Command before you’re 50.

Unfortunately, none of us have a crystal ball and can tell you what the Landcsape will be when you decide to come home. You could get picked up 2 weeks after applying or sitting in a “please keep updating your application” file for another 5 years, or longer.
The current RPPP process is destined to fail, but it’s also more written in stone than any process we’ve had in the past given it has no out clause for the company other than tag and release.

However….

The flip side to going overseas, is you might decide to not come back. There’s a thread at the moment talking about Aussie Airlines being a “noose around your neck” and believe me, Air NZ is no different. When you’re mid 40’s, with a family and 10-15 years of Seniority it’s extremely difficult to pack up and leave if you become unhappy. The gloss of living in NZ has well been eroded in the past decade (or more) and our salaries have failed to keep up with inflation. Something that doesn’t necessarily become obvious until you’ve got a Mortgage, Family and hit the salary cap for your rank, watching your bid for promotion barely budge as more Pilots continue past 65 for the same reasons.

Just like life, this career is full of decisions and consequences. Looking back, I don’t think Air NZ was the right decision for me based on my age of joining, the direction NZ as a country is going and recent world events that I could have never predicted. In another 5-10 years however, it could all change.
Surely the out for the RPPP for the company is that it’s just a ‘policy’. Not attached to any collective agreement etc. They’ll just say it’s not working as intended, sorry. Rip it up.
KiwiAvi8er is offline  
Old 11th Jul 2023, 20:38
  #145 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: At Home
Posts: 397
Received 13 Likes on 12 Posts
Originally Posted by 777xpilot
100% Agree with EZilcho, this is one of the reasons why I didn't bother to go ahead and accept my offer with ANZ. The progression is seriously slow and NZ is just getting worse. I never understood flight instructors during my training seeing ANZ as the big golden ticket when there's better opportunities overseas, but if your wanting to raise a family here by all means necessary go for it. However I would never spend 6+ years on the turbo props at ANZ link.
Once upon a time, it was the golden ticket... for some, with A320 Commands in their early to mid 30's, it still is. The problem with NZ Aviation being so cyclical is we don't all get to have the same careers. 6 Years in the Links isn't so bad if you join at 20 with 500 hours as your first job, different story if you got stuck in GA during a downturn or joining from the RNZAF.

Originally Posted by Makiko
Do you guys actually realise how short so many of the Aussie TP/Jet operators are atm ?
Anecdotally, I'd say there's more than a handful at Air NZ Link and even Jet looking across the ditch... wont take much to push them over, perhaps the next Election result will do it.
Not to say everything's Rosey in Australian Airlines either, but it's a much better place to live.

Originally Posted by KiwiAvi8er
Surely the out for the RPPP for the company is that it’s just a ‘policy’. Not attached to any collective agreement etc. They’ll just say it’s not working as intended, sorry. Rip it up.
The honest answer is I don't know for certain. That was certainly my assumption, but recent cockpit gossip has suggested otherwise. Apparently because it's a signed agreement between the Company and ALPA, it requires mutual agreement to terminate. Questions are being asked how it got past legal and signed in the first place... perhaps a certain Exec acting with too much autonomy jumped the gun. Time will tell I suppose.
ElZilcho is online now  
Old 11th Jul 2023, 20:51
  #146 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2022
Location: OZZIE M8
Posts: 11
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like on 1 Post
If anyone doesn't see a long term career with ANZ I'd say its best to work for another airline overseas. I know a few instructors who have been trying for years to get an interview with ANZ and they have had no luck.
777xpilot is offline  
Old 12th Jul 2023, 02:34
  #147 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: AU
Posts: 249
Likes: 0
Received 7 Likes on 7 Posts
Originally Posted by 777xpilot
If anyone doesn't see a long term career with ANZ I'd say it’sbest to work for another airline overseas. I know a few instructors who have been trying for years to get an interview with ANZ and they have had no luck.
Yes, for our 20 year old, I would suggest you take the first job that gets you on the ladder and that includes jobs in AU. At this stage of your career you cannot be fussy as the music will stop again.

Once you have a seat you will be amazed at the doors that begin to open including Air NZ whether you are in or external.
On Guard is offline  
Old 19th Jul 2023, 07:37
  #148 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Ardmore, New Zealand
Posts: 85
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Will this leased 777 ramp up the manpower requirements for this year above what’s already forecast? Must be quite a few more external recruitment boards lined up with the numbers required.
KiwiAvi8er is offline  
Old 20th Jul 2023, 02:38
  #149 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: At Home
Posts: 397
Received 13 Likes on 12 Posts
Originally Posted by KiwiAvi8er
Will this leased 777 ramp up the manpower requirements for this year above what’s already forecast? Must be quite a few more external recruitment boards lined up with the numbers required.
We don't have enough manpower for the current 777 fleet, let alone when the lease arrives... something needs to ramp up somewhere, but no word on that being external recruitment in 2023.
ElZilcho is online now  
Old 15th Aug 2023, 07:50
  #150 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Dec 2016
Location: World
Posts: 81
Received 3 Likes on 2 Posts
Quick question regarding seniority and bidding based on what EZ said in the wages thread:

If you’re looking at 18 years in the company before F7, what are the timelines for C7, C8? Is it possible to move from C20 directly to C8? Or once your on short haul are you kind of stuck?

What’s the average pathway? I know it’s been said that plenty of people stick as SO until a window seat pops up, but is bidding for every rank/seat cumulative, i.e. just based on your overall position on the MSL?

Hypothetically, if you took a C20 spot after five years and joined the captains pay scale, if you jumped over to F8 after five years in the LHS would you rejoin the new FO scale at year one? Or year eight based on start date?
Seosan is offline  
Old 15th Aug 2023, 08:41
  #151 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: At Home
Posts: 397
Received 13 Likes on 12 Posts
Originally Posted by Seosan
Quick question regarding seniority and bidding based on what EZ said in the wages thread:

If you’re looking at 18 years in the company before F7, what are the timelines for C7, C8? Is it possible to move from C20 directly to C8? Or once your on short haul are you kind of stuck?

What’s the average pathway? I know it’s been said that plenty of people stick as SO until a window seat pops up, but is bidding for every rank/seat cumulative, i.e. just based on your overall position on the MSL?

Hypothetically, if you took a C20 spot after five years and joined the captains pay scale, if you jumped over to F8 after five years in the LHS would you rejoin the new FO scale at year one? Or year eight based on start date?
Pay Steps are based on Years of Service, so after 7 Years you'll hit the Yr8 Cap (SO/FO) regardless of how many times you swap fleet/ranks (2 year lock on applies when you change fleets, but not seats within a fleet).

Command Payscales work slightly differently. After 6 years you begin to accrue notional Command Pay... if you took a Command at 6 Years or less, you'd start on Year 1, but at 7 Years you'd start on year 2 etc, reaching the top Command step after 18 Years.
If you happen to be fortunate enough to get an early Command, then you would reach the Year 12 Cap a few years earlier, even if you bid back to FO on another fleet.

You can bid, and achieve, any position you have the Seniority for. Pre-COVID we had SO's bid and achieve C20. Needless to say, this made the Company nervous so they insisted on giving them some RHS experience first.... on Command Pay.

Timeline wise, S7, S8 and F20 are all entry level positions.
At the moment, both C20 and F8 sit around 9-10 Years. F7 ~18, C8, ~22 C7, ~30. The 777 however, isn't planned to stick around long (so they say), we had 15 pre-COVID now 7 (soon to be 8 with a lease). Doubt I'll ever see C7 let alone a new hire seeing F7. We also have ARP Captains (Age Restricted Pilots, being over 65) on the Widebodies flying the Tasman, with the possibility of extending it to FO's as well which is slowing things down. Needless to say, the vast majority of us aren't happy about this but ALPA said we're wrong and to shut up about it. So there's that to consider.
ElZilcho is online now  
Old 15th Aug 2023, 08:50
  #152 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Dec 2016
Location: World
Posts: 81
Received 3 Likes on 2 Posts
Good info thanks again mate. So you reckon if they biff the triple it will rocket the wait times for the 78?

Originally Posted by ElZilcho
We also have ARP Captains (Age Restricted Pilots, being over 65) on the Widebodies flying the Tasman, with the possibility of extending it to FO's as well which is slowing things down.
Very interesting. I’d previously been told you couldn’t do international after 65 but I suppose Aussie isn’t considered under that umbrella.
Seosan is offline  
Old 15th Aug 2023, 09:14
  #153 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: At Home
Posts: 397
Received 13 Likes on 12 Posts
Originally Posted by Seosan
Good info thanks again mate. So you reckon if they biff the triple it will rocket the wait times for the 78?
If/when we become a 2 Fleet Airline (as is the stated goal) it will be interesting to see how the Seniority list re-arranges itself. As I mentioned, F8 pays more than a Junior C20 all things considered, then, when C20 starts pulling ahead, F7 comes up. Without F7 will we see C20 go higher? Hard to say, but that's what happened during the COVID re-shuffle. A lot of F7's saw F8 as a paycut so were "down-trained" to C20. Ultimately, the numbers will depend on how many Airframes we actually end up with, and if they stick to their 787 only LH fleet, or see value in the 777x/A350. ULR seems to be a big focus and I'm not convinced the 787 is the right Aircraft for it.

Very interesting. I’d previously been told you couldn’t do international after 65 but I suppose Aussie isn’t considered under that umbrella.
Both NZ and AUS have filed differences with ICAO.
On the 320 Fleet it's a non-issue really, as there's very few destinations they can't fly to. On the Widebodies however, it's basically a Tasman Command as most destination they Can't operate to. It's created a special branch within each fleet who fall well outside our roster balancing and bidding rules, but seems here to stay.
ElZilcho is online now  
Old 16th Aug 2023, 02:28
  #154 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: NZ
Posts: 54
Received 1 Like on 1 Post
Originally Posted by ElZilcho
Needless to say, the vast majority of us aren't happy about this but ALPA said we're wrong and to shut up about it. So there's that to consider.
The vast majority need to vote the leadership out. Never seems to happen.
waterbottle is offline  
Old 16th Aug 2023, 03:01
  #155 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Around
Posts: 97
Received 19 Likes on 9 Posts
Originally Posted by ElZilcho
. We also have ARP Captains (Age Restricted Pilots, being over 65) on the Widebodies flying the Tasman, with the possibility of extending it to FO's as well which is slowing things down. Needless to say, the vast majority of us aren't happy about this but ALPA said we're wrong and to shut up about it. So there's that to consider.
What would you have ALPA do? Do you remember the court case brought against Air NZ many moons ago by the Retreads that ensured the company couldn't discriminate against those over 65? ALPA is absolutely powerless to do anything about it legally. What could be done though is when negotiating the contract again is place clauses that ensure those over 65 retain their current rank and pay but must move to the domestic jet fleet. Company would get on board and the case for discrimination against them would be very weak as they arent taking pay cuts or demotions. It might even encourage guys/girls to just retire.
BO0M is offline  
Old 16th Aug 2023, 04:04
  #156 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: At Home
Posts: 397
Received 13 Likes on 12 Posts
Originally Posted by BO0M
What would you have ALPA do? Do you remember the court case brought against Air NZ many moons ago by the Retreads that ensured the company couldn't discriminate against those over 65? ALPA is absolutely powerless to do anything about it legally. What could be done though is when negotiating the contract again is place clauses that ensure those over 65 retain their current rank and pay but must move to the domestic jet fleet. Company would get on board and the case for discrimination against them would be very weak as they arent taking pay cuts or demotions. It might even encourage guys/girls to just retire.
Never felt an A320 Command while collecting the pension was discrimination but unfortunately I’m not a QC and can’t sell that opinion to the union. Hire 100 lawyers and get 100 different interpretations of “reasonable accommodation”. The status quo was fine until certain individuals made some noise and were effectively given what they wanted unchallenged.

Speaks volumes when an OG Fed starts strutting around in an ALPA Lanyard after jumping ship (again) because of their ARP support.
One of guys who spearheaded the ARP (GM), when he was still an FO, was bitching and moaning at ALPA meetings about Pilots not retiring and delaying his career progression.

Paying them, effectively bypass pay, opens up a massive can of worms which I don’t think either parties want to touch. Right now, there’s a cap on the number of ARP positions on the WB fleets. If they were to get bypass pay on the A320 there would be no such cap and likely cost the company a lot more. There’s nearly 50 over 65 on the list at the moment, not all are flying, but there’s a lot on the Airbus who would get a massive pay rise overnight.

Whole things a farce, the trial was never a trial, it was to “determine numbers”. But as I said, it is what it is.
ElZilcho is online now  
Old 17th Aug 2023, 02:41
  #157 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2022
Location: Hotels
Posts: 2
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Hi All - Turbo captain sitting mid/low on the RPPP list. Has there been any further chat regarding if/when/how the RPPP will work with ~300 jet pilots required over the next few years.

will the RPPP hold up? - company+alpa seems to be holding off information, they’ve done the “forecasting” on whether it will work but aren’t sharing the knowledge

Without a proper Pathway there is 0 reason to stay in the turboprops and we’d just like a decent yes/no so we can plan the future and leave asap rather than waiting for it to blow up. Especially considering starting FO turboprop pay is 68k (only a few handfuls above the $30p/hr ground staff now get to chuck bags) - no wonder we have FO’s leaving to J* Aus for 130k AUD starting

any info / yarns / rumours would be appreciated

D3R
Down3Red is offline  
Old 17th Aug 2023, 09:48
  #158 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: At Home
Posts: 397
Received 13 Likes on 12 Posts
Originally Posted by Down3Red
Hi All - Turbo captain sitting mid/low on the RPPP list. Has there been any further chat regarding if/when/how the RPPP will work with ~300 jet pilots required over the next few years.

will the RPPP hold up? - company+alpa seems to be holding off information, they’ve done the “forecasting” on whether it will work but aren’t sharing the knowledge

Without a proper Pathway there is 0 reason to stay in the turboprops and we’d just like a decent yes/no so we can plan the future and leave asap rather than waiting for it to blow up. Especially considering starting FO turboprop pay is 68k (only a few handfuls above the $30p/hr ground staff now get to chuck bags) - no wonder we have FO’s leaving to J* Aus for 130k AUD starting

any info / yarns / rumours would be appreciated

D3R
Company will never give you a “no” outside of a formal interview (as was the old system) because a “no” would mean you’re definitely going to leave. A dangling carrot such as a “maybe” or a “not now” is more likely to keep you around.

As you mentioned, we need 300 odd Jet Pilots. That’s what, half the RSL? How many FO’s are left who meet the Command requirements? We can hire as many 500hr Pilots as we like, doesn’t solve the eventual LHS shortage. And that’s always been the issue. The Company and ALPA are silent about it, likely because they’ve backed themselves into a corner, or (rumour time) because they’re working on an SO Cadetship as part of this 200hr Pilot Programme.

New hires start on minimum wage in the back of a 787, on the bottom of the GOP list then go off to Link after 2-3 years with 2000hrs of bunk time to pad out the logbook and Regional Captains move onto F20. Air NZ gets to keep their RPPP, slash their wage bill for SO’s and ALPA gets their GOP list. But that’s just a rumour… they could just have every Regional Captain on tag & release within 2 years then wonder why no externals are applying.

All I can say is, leave or stay, accept the consequences of that decision. I left the Links many years ago to fly Jets elsewhere because I refused to put my career on hold while they dangled the carrot, but there was no pathway then.
With the 8 year stand down now, and already having a Command, it’s highly likely you’re better off staying. Even if you don’t get a Jet start you’ll likely get a Seniority number in due course, and ultimately that’s what counts…. If you want to stay in NZ.

However, if I were a new hire into the Links? I’d probably do my bond then leave. And if that happens, the shortage of experienced FO’s for Commands will only get worse.

Honestly it’s all crystal ball stuff right now. They don’t tell us anymore than they’re telling you. Even recruiters don’t know what’s going to happen next year when the Links can’t keep up with demand.

Last edited by ElZilcho; 17th Aug 2023 at 10:01.
ElZilcho is online now  
Old 19th Aug 2023, 04:59
  #159 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2018
Location: Lalaland
Posts: 53
Likes: 0
Received 6 Likes on 4 Posts
As you mentioned, we need 300 odd Jet Pilots.
Is this realistic? The list is gonna grow to 1400ish pilots?
dctPub is offline  
Old 19th Aug 2023, 06:52
  #160 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: AU
Posts: 249
Likes: 0
Received 7 Likes on 7 Posts
Originally Posted by dctPub
Is this realistic? The list is gonna grow to 1400ish pilots?
Possibly same issues facing QF with a high rate of retirements until 2030. They need 1000.
On Guard is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service

Copyright © 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.