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VA and VARA integration

Old 21st Aug 2022, 03:45
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Originally Posted by PoppaJo View Post
Wouldn’t a senior A320 captain be going backwards in pay?
Only applies to F100 as they’re being replaced by 737-700s. A320s to remain…for now…
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Old 22nd Aug 2022, 09:17
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Originally Posted by Capt Basil Brush View Post
Ok Packvalve, everyone is wondering exactly how YOU would have done things if you were the “Representative” that would be a better outcome for both pilot groups? (And not just a better outcome for you)

Dont hold back Packvalve, outline every measure you would have taken in dealing with this. With the claims you are making against the union’s, you owe it to everyone to enlighten us all.

(what are the odds for silence - or no answer??)
​​​​​,
I don’t owe you Jack!
I just reported the facts on PPRuNe a couple of days before it became reality!

Another fact is, that majority domestic VA FO’s are very disappointed that the the AFAP have sold out the 737 expansion that was promised commands in favour of the TWU redundant F100 Pilots.

And no, I’m not affected by this at all - just saying what the general sentiment is.
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Old 22nd Aug 2022, 10:30
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Are there any VA 737 Pilots based in PER, or is everything farmed out to VARA then?
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Old 22nd Aug 2022, 10:43
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Originally Posted by Packvalve View Post
Another fact is, that majority domestic VA FO’s are very disappointed that the the AFAP have sold out the 737 expansion that was promised commands in favour of the TWU redundant F100 Pilots.
What redundant F100 pilots do you keep referring to? There have simply been no redundancies within VARA as far as I’m aware.

On your first point, all expansion beyond the current F100 pilots transferring goes by GDOJ. It could have easily been siloed to VARA but the work of the feds ensured all future opportunities are presented to the entire group.

Last edited by turbantime; 22nd Aug 2022 at 10:55.
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Old 22nd Aug 2022, 12:53
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Here’s the kicker.
VA NBA 2021
APPENDIX 3 Section 2.
”Command priority dates will operate for the award of narrow body commands.”

Specifically, Section 2 does not mention VARA pilots, and neither do they have a CPD on the current GDOJ list.

If you’re a current VA FO or on the Inactive list - risking another few years without a Command, you would be well served by contacting your AFAP “Representative” and the Deputy Chief Pilot(acting) to clarify your slot.

Last edited by Packvalve; 22nd Aug 2022 at 15:47.
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Old 22nd Aug 2022, 22:10
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What exactly would you have done differently packvalve? If you think the company would have signed off on demoting current VARA captains just to make room for VA FOs, then you’ve got rocks in your head.

From a pure business standpoint, it would have been beneficial to keep the two entities seperated and silo any future opportunities. This agreement allows ALL pilots to access future growth opportunities within the group. Yes, there is a short term hit to current FOs but there will be some VARA F100 crew who won’t want to transfer to the 737 and then throw in natural attrition. It’ll mean more opportunities in the long run. The rumour is that prior to this consultation, only four FOs had bids for Perth based 737 commands anyway.

So again, what would you have done differently here? And again, what redundant F100 pilots do you keep crowing about?
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Old 23rd Aug 2022, 00:21
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Originally Posted by turbantime View Post
From a pure business standpoint,

Yes, there is a short term hit to current FO’s

So again, what would you have done differently here?
Ok - how about stick to the EBA!

Timmy(H), your post is about as nonsensical as your contributions in the Town Halls.

Last email from the Company albeit condemned the Airbus fleet to the same fate - so again, another short term hit to the current FO’s by your own admission.

The only savior you have, is that your collusion with the AFAP lawyers may find a way to dissuade the FO’s into silence once more.

Enjoy the phone calls!👍

Last edited by Packvalve; 23rd Aug 2022 at 02:02.
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Old 23rd Aug 2022, 02:11
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Packvalve. So you expect a current Jet captain to take a demotion just so you can get ‘your’ command?
Do you realise some of said captains have been in the company since the 90s, probably when you were still in nappies……..stop having a sook.
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Old 23rd Aug 2022, 02:25
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Wouldn't be the first time, when QLink introduced the Q-400 in Melbourne the -300 captains without seniority had to move base or accept FO positions, some both. All depends whether you want to accept seniority as a captain vs base seniority vs overall seniority, vs type seniority. In any case someone will be upset, good luck to making everybody happy, I wish it was possible. Sadly DiVosh is no longer with us to relate how upsetting that was.
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Old 23rd Aug 2022, 02:26
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Originally Posted by Packvalve View Post
Ok - how about stick to the EBA!

Timmy(H), your post is about as nonsensical as your contributions in the Town Halls.

Last email from the Company albeit condemned the Airbus fleet to the same fate - so again, another short term hit to the current FO’s by your own admission.

The only savior you have, is that your collusion with the AFAP lawyers may find a way to dissuade the FO’s into silence once more.

Enjoy the phone calls!👍
Which EBA? VARA or VAA? You do realise there are two workgroups here who both need to be taken into consideration right? Once again, it would have been easy just to hand the airframes to VARA under their EBA, then let them slowly creep more into RPT while people like you sit there getting angrier by the day.

Are you suggesting I am a management or AFAP stooge? Wrong egghead! Rather than debate the points, people like you start attacking the person. You realise that just makes you look non-sensical and ignorant right?

I appreciate what this means in the short term, but I am absolutely certain that this is a win for the ENTIRE pilot group in the long term. Try and convince me otherwise, without calling me names.
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Old 23rd Aug 2022, 02:33
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The only winners are those that get the benefit in this situation. Either an FO is told they have to wait much longer for career advancement, or a Captain has to act as FO for a while. Either way there will be a small few that will probably pack up and move elsewhere with either outcome. And a lot of grumbling from whoever is disaffected, as is already evident here.
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Old 23rd Aug 2022, 02:57
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Originally Posted by davidclarke View Post
Packvalve. So you expect a current Jet captain to take a demotion just so you can get ‘your’ command?
Do you realise some of said captains have been in the company since the 90s, probably when you were still in nappies……..stop having a sook.
Whilst there are some said 90s era captains there are also some who are junior and were unsuccessful in getting a job with VAA and then got into VARA. These people will now be flying VAA aircraft on VAA routes with more senior VAA FOs in the right seat.
There will always be winners and losers. In this case there are potentially hundreds of VAA FOs who are losers in comparison to the 80 odd at VARA.
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Old 23rd Aug 2022, 04:40
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Wouldn't be the first time, when QLink introduced the Q-400 in Melbourne the -300 captains without seniority had to move base or accept FO positions, some both. All depends whether you want to accept seniority as a captain vs base seniority vs overall seniority, vs type seniority.
Except we don't have any of those. I don't even know what seniority means anymore. It's just what ever suits on a particular given day to fix a particular problem.

Anyway I think the message is loud and clear the future lies elsewhere if you are a junior FO who would like to be a captain one day.

you expect a current Jet captain to take a demotion just so you can get ‘your’ command?
Yes. That is the nature of seniority. Just have a look at QF mainline.
It is not the best system but it is the best of a bad choice. However we don't even have a "system" as such.

If we don't want to have a seniority system, that's OK but that needs to be advertised so people can organise themselves accordingly.
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Old 23rd Aug 2022, 05:14
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Originally Posted by non_state_actor View Post
Except we don't have any of those. I don't even know what seniority means anymore. It's just what ever suits on a particular given day to fix a particular problem.

Anyway I think the message is loud and clear the future lies elsewhere if you are a junior FO who would like to be a captain one day.



Yes. That is the nature of seniority. Just have a look at QF mainline.
It is not the best system but it is the best of a bad choice. However we don't even have a "system" as such.

If we don't want to have a seniority system, that's OK but that needs to be advertised so people can organise themselves accordingly.
Ok so let me get this straight. Virgin has decided to replace an old aircraft type with a newer aircraft type, as the newer type will offer lower costs, increased reliability etc etc. As a result of modernising the fleet and thru absolutely no fault of their own doing, you want them to get demoted? Even though they will be flying most of the the same routes as they were previously on the old aircraft type.

From an outsiders perspective I’m shocked that you feel this way of thinking is justified.

Seniority sux. Pilots continue to cling to it. Just remember the company will do what is in their best interests, regardless of seniority, and until pilots get over this, the anguish will continue.

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Old 23rd Aug 2022, 05:43
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Who is getting demoted???
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Old 23rd Aug 2022, 06:22
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Regardless,
The VA Narrow Body EBA 2021 is a stand-alone agreement that that cannot be influenced by another agreement(VARA or otherwise) unless it expressly states that within that agreement- which it does not.

The EBA outlines clearly how Commands will be allocated.

It is far more favorable for Bain to have a single AOC/Type and hold a gun to the head of the VARA pilots at the next negotiations after they have been allowed to be integrated by the current EBA parties/pilots (or their representatives).

Put simply, if it was fiscally more advantageous for Bain to expand the fleet via VARA, then they could have more easily done so.

Again - I’m unaffected by this, just highlighting the very obvious intent of Management and the elementary facets relating to this particular circumstance.
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Old 23rd Aug 2022, 06:23
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Ok so let me get this straight. Virgin has decided to replace an old aircraft type with a newer aircraft type, as the newer type will offer lower costs, increased reliability etc etc. As a result of modernising the fleet and thru absolutely no fault of their own doing, you want them to get demoted? Even though they will be flying most of the the same routes as they were previously on the old aircraft type.

From an outsiders perspective I’m shocked that you feel this way of thinking is justified.

Seniority sux. Pilots continue to cling to it. Just remember the company will do what is in their best interests, regardless of seniority, and until pilots get over this, the anguish will continue.
Yes that is straight line seniority and everyone knows where they stand as opposed to whatever we have now which is almost worse than no seniority.

Remember every system is flawed seniority or non-seniority there is no perfect system and they can all be corrupted. My problem is that it appears there is no system at all.

Seniority sux. Pilots continue to cling to it. Just remember the company will do what is in their best interests, regardless of seniority, and until pilots get over this, the anguish will continue.
And replace it with what? A "performance" system which just becomes an old boys club?
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Old 23rd Aug 2022, 07:54
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Originally Posted by non_state_actor View Post
Yes that is straight line seniority and everyone knows where they stand as opposed to whatever we have now which is almost worse than no seniority.

Remember every system is flawed seniority or non-seniority there is no perfect system and they can all be corrupted. My problem is that it appears there is no system at all.



And replace it with what? A "performance" system which just becomes an old boys club?
It is a straight fleet replacement.
Seniority doesn’t apply in that case. If you go by your reasoning then any captain behind you on the seniority list should be demoted immediately and you should get their spot regardless of fleet etc. It just doesn’t work like that!!
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Old 23rd Aug 2022, 08:23
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I think you missed the original post. This is not a straight forward fleet replacement, the initial post states that the VARA crew are being integrated into the VA EBA with leave from the VARA EBA. This means integration of seniority in part and therefore there needs to be negotiation on who is entitled to what. If the VARA EBA was handling the fleet replacement then it would be straight forward. Other things come into play with regards to the whole EBA. Nothing in this is straight forward. Once you merge two pilot groups you then have the other issues of base bidding, leave bidding, roster bidding etc etc...

The up side as alluded earlier is that all the pilots have the same agreement, so no undercutting as per QF group MO.
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Old 23rd Aug 2022, 09:17
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It is a straight fleet replacement. Seniority doesn’t apply in that case. If you go by your reasoning then any captain behind you on the seniority list should be demoted immediately and you should get their spot regardless of fleet etc. It just doesn’t work like that!!
Well that all depends on the rules of engagement. The 737 replaced the EJet and those guys got demoted because they didn't have the seniority to remain in base.

This whole thing will become unhinged if VARA loses the Rio contract and a bunch of F100 Captains become BNE 737 Captains.
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