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QF Short Haul EBA

Old 20th Apr 2022, 01:43
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There are options for a 321XLR pilot rest, basically a curtained off business seat

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Old 20th Apr 2022, 05:35
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Maybe it’s time to stop calling them short or long haul EBA’s as well. Widebody and narrowbody might be more appropriate.
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Old 20th Apr 2022, 07:34
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Originally Posted by dr dre View Post
Possibly one of the sticking points would be 2 crew back of the clock night sectors back from Asia. HK, China and Japan are all within the range of the XLR to anywhere in Australia.

Is an alternative of a 3 crew crew operation for the longest sectors with a business seat rest being proposed?

What do competitors like JAL, ANA, the Chinese carriers and Cathay do? I believe all flying from that far north is widebody only at the present time.

It may be argued that if a competitor is doing 2 crew BOC in a widebody what’s the difference to doing it 2 crew in a narrowbody as you won’t need a bunk.

When Cathay flew the 330s to Australia the crew rest for pilots was a business class seat.
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Old 20th Apr 2022, 08:27
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Originally Posted by dctPub View Post
When Cathay flew the 330s to Australia the crew rest for pilots was a business class seat.
So it was a 3 crew operation then? I wonder if HK is just close enough for them to squeeze out a 2 pilot crew for the return flight, and anything further north requires a 3rd pilot.
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Old 20th Apr 2022, 08:56
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Originally Posted by beautiful_butterfly View Post
787-8 might be better suited for these sort of routes for mainline making the discussion almost entirely mute.

A320/21s for similar routes for a low cost carrier.

Customers don’t really want this. Only MBA thin pencil people do.

What a naive comment.
Airlines will decide which aircraft and when and what routes they will operate.
Whether they get it right will depend on the success meaning profitability of the route.
Pilots are the participants.
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Old 20th Apr 2022, 09:18
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Originally Posted by beautiful_butterfly View Post
787-8 might be better suited for these sort of routes for mainline making the discussion almost entirely mute.

A320/21s for similar routes for a low cost carrier.

Customers don’t really want this. Only MBA thin pencil people do.
It’s not just QF.

Plenty of full service carriers worldwide are moving to the 321XLR. American, United, Air Canada and Aer Lingus all getting the XLR to do transatlantic back of the clocks east coast USA to Europe on thinner routes.

And narrowbody long haul might be new to Australia but not to the rest of the world. The 757 had been doing lots of transatlantic flights through it’s history, and the 321XLR is basically the narrowbody replacement for the 757.

Just because pilots think they should be flying widebodies internationally doesn’t mean that’s what will happen.
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Old 20th Apr 2022, 10:09
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Interesting comment obviously talking about Virgin and Cathay
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Old 20th Apr 2022, 10:57
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Longer, international sectors, particularly to the Asian ports to the north that involve back of clock returns, are not crewed by a third pilot for the sector itself. It is for operational integrity.
A simple diversion blows the duty. No longer one sector but two. So FRMS dictates crewing makeup.
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Old 20th Apr 2022, 11:15
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And narrowbody long haul might be new to Australia
Erm....what do you think Qantas operated prior to the advent of the B747?
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Old 21st Apr 2022, 01:23
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Originally Posted by Ken Borough View Post
Erm....what do you think Qantas operated prior to the advent of the B747?
Well if you’re referring to the 707, not sure it would be considered ‘long haul’……. Not by today’s standards anyway




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Old 21st Apr 2022, 02:17
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Originally Posted by t_cas View Post
Longer, international sectors, particularly to the Asian ports to the north that involve back of clock returns, are not crewed by a third pilot for the sector itself. It is for operational integrity.
A simple diversion blows the duty. No longer one sector but two. So FRMS dictates crewing makeup.
I think the issue is FRMS is a bit of an unknown, and we all fear the unknown, and something we fear can get turned into a bogeyman. I would wait to see what the FRMS derived rosters will look like.
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Old 21st Apr 2022, 04:00
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Well if you’re referring to the 707, not sure it would be considered ‘long haul’……. Not by today’s standards anyway
I think London - Singapore is and was long haul. Not to be confused with Ultra LH.
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Old 21st Apr 2022, 04:20
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I am just waiting for them to actually order new aircraft- remember the last order for Mainline aircraft? November 2005. 16 1/2 years.
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Old 21st Apr 2022, 05:25
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Originally Posted by Hawk Circle View Post
Beware - FRMS is NOT a Lifestyle Management Tool.
It's only purpose is to keep rosters aligned with the regulations or the Company's (not your) Risk Assessment, this by converting your 'life' into algorithmic 1's and 0's.
Reading that excerpt it seems there’s a possibility the FRMS may be more restrictive than current flight and duty limits, depending on a host of variables?
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Old 21st Apr 2022, 06:44
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Originally Posted by Icarus2001 View Post
I think London - Singapore is and was long haul. Not to be confused with Ultra LH.
fair enough
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Old 21st Apr 2022, 10:56
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When you're talking about our beloved B707 you need to keep well in mind that the automatics were shite - 1950s technology. The cabin environment like air con left much to be desired. Then we remember the number of sectors flown between SYD and LHR. My PB was 11 landings in 3 tours of duty SYD-HKG-THR-LHR. The trip back was a repeat. Ah the Good Old Days!!

I call it long haul. No set it and forget it, T/O today and descending tomorrow matey. Overwater nav courtesy of a N/O and overland by NDB and VOR. There was plenty to do managing the old girl too.
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Old 27th Apr 2022, 09:20
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Sounds like AIPA is yet again bending over to management. Give up more hard fought entitlements aye boys. You’ll be a part of the GMC in no time…
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Old 27th Apr 2022, 10:18
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Originally Posted by aussieflyboy View Post
Sounds like AIPA is yet again bending over to management. Give up more hard fought entitlements aye boys. You’ll be a part of the GMC in no time…
Have they? Most pilot concerns seemed to be with rostering practices under an FRMS. It’s still a bit of an unknown how it will work, but the FRMS may actually help pilots with fatigue related concerns. A thread on this forum years back showed other airlines were concerned FRMS related rostering would increase required crew ie more protections for pilots.

FRMS can give more control to pilots, so if consistent reports show a duty is fatiguing, that would have been legal under the CAOs, then there’s more structure for that duty to not be rostered.

If anyone thought the aircraft would be operated under the LH EBA that was never going to happen.
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Old 27th Apr 2022, 11:29
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The suggestion a CASA approved airline FRMS would be a "win" for pilots is laughable
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Old 27th Apr 2022, 12:44
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Originally Posted by aussieflyboy View Post
Sounds like AIPA is yet again bending over to management. Give up more hard fought entitlements aye boys. You’ll be a part of the GMC in no time…
If true, it spells the end of NJS and probably the end of QF shorthaul as a viable career.
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