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QF Short Haul EBA

Old 13th Apr 2022, 07:14
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QF Short Haul EBA

So to summarise AIPAs update on the SH EBA for the A321

- Removal of rostering protections
- Removal of geographical limits that SH aircraft can fly
- Ability to backfill reserves
- No pay increase
- sign or the planes go elsewhere

Plenty of other pineapples too.
what happened to the days of negotiations? These are threats, pure and simple.
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Old 13th Apr 2022, 07:57
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Originally Posted by aussieflyboy View Post

Will be enjoyable watching what happens when both NJS and SH vote 90% NO.
it’s actually not enjoyable though. As a regular line pilot, it’s bloody stressful. At what point can/will regulators intervene to ensure good faith bargaining? What happens in May when we have a Labor government? Will employees ever be empowered again to negotiate or will we allow QF to employ mafia shakedown tactics til our retirement.
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Old 13th Apr 2022, 08:02
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It’s remarkable that in the current climate of workforce issues that are at the front and centre of public interest, that QF has continued to try it on with the SH group.

QF is asking for concessions from the SH group, with no movement from their end. The first point of call should be an agreement between the Company and the Pilot group that the pilots will not be beholden to the QF Wages Policy of a 2 year pay freeze during the next negotiation.

I hope AIPA are calling out QF on their BS. Has AIPA sought legal advice on whether the threat of giving the aircraft to another entity would be legal given the transfer of business issues in the Fair Work Act that would arise?

With all of the issues that may affect pilot recruitment over the next decade - it is my opinion that the 737 replacement will be flown by SH pilots, even if they give the current offer the response it deserves.
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Old 13th Apr 2022, 08:55
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Originally Posted by Colonel_Klink View Post

I hope AIPA are calling out QF on their BS. Has AIPA sought legal advice on whether the threat of giving the aircraft to another entity would be legal given the transfer of business issues in the Fair Work Act that would arise?
All they need to do is announce “Project Winton is cancelled” (to remove the prior stated goal it’s a 737 replacement which would see it fall under the SH EBA). Then the next day announce a brand new subsidiary, “A321 Air” or something that will be set up with A321s and fly new routes initially, but encroach onto mainline routes within time. Perfectly legal. Or not even go that far. Suddenly NA or JQ get those 321s and are flying 10hr mainline routes on an aircraft with business class seats.

Unfortunately mainline pilot options are limited. Unions have been weakened to the point of non-existence, and there 3 existing group subsidiaries (NA, JQ and EFA) already flying the 320/321 who won’t be making the same mistake of voting down a deal to fly dozens of new aircraft.

So despite predictions of “90% No”, which was what was predicted with the 2015 and 2020 LH EBA votes but never eventuated, most pilots will have to look at the deal presented and make a choice re their future.

Originally Posted by pinkpanther1 View Post

- Removal of rostering protections
That one will need more explanation, no doubt they want to use the A321 on some international routes but the bulk of flying would be domestic routes similar to current EBA. I think fire on that one should be held until more concrete information regarding what is being proposed is presented.

Removal of geographical limits that SH aircraft can fly
Obvious with the range of the aircraft, no biggie really.

- Ability to backfill reserves
Would have to come with a bit of an incentive I think (a few hours pay was proposed last EBA)

- No pay increase
I think most are happy with current pay. Already some of the highest paid narrowbody pilots in the world, and definitely ahead of local competitors and Award conditions.

Plenty of other pineapples too.
Didn’t see many other points in the email apart from what you listed. One about moving crew from the 737 to the 321 in time was one, but that’s about it.

Will have to wait until more concrete proposals are presented from both the Union and the Company really.

what happened to the days of negotiations?
That’s Industrial Relations 2022. Society has moved further from guaranteed permanent jobs with strict protections and good union representation to a temporary casualised gig style economy where one hours work a week is considered “fully employed”.

We can debate why this happened til the cows come home but it’s where we are.

Last edited by dr dre; 13th Apr 2022 at 09:05.
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Old 13th Apr 2022, 09:38
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This seems to be a sign of the times at QF.
Recently the negotiations between EFA and the company broke down. The company said this is the first and final offer, take it or leave it. Not a single claim that AIPA or AFAP put in was recognised.

There was no negotiation period! And this is after being below the award for 3 plus years due to an expired agreement!

Common sense prevailed and it was voted down.
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Old 13th Apr 2022, 09:39
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Can I ask please….what is “backfilling a reserve “ mean? Never heard of it in 35 years in aviation.
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Old 13th Apr 2022, 10:00
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I think mainline pilots are in a different boat, longer career stagnation has meant securing new aircraft is a higher priority. Losing the SH replacement aircraft would probably add another 10 years onto wait times for upgrades and promotions and deny a career command to a few hundred pilots.

There’s also a general awareness that they are better off than most of the subsidiary pilots, even after new variations. Whereas the subsidiaries are a lot closer to Award conditions, meaning there’s not much incentive to outsource.

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Old 13th Apr 2022, 10:02
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Originally Posted by SOPS View Post
Can I ask please….what is “backfilling a reserve “ mean? Never heard of it in 35 years in aviation.
Basically assigning a reserve duty after roster release if sickness or call outs have exhausted reserve coverage for that particular day
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Old 13th Apr 2022, 10:49
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Dr Dre

Thanks for your input Nathan Coull.
And I think you have not read the mood of mainline pilots very well.
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Old 13th Apr 2022, 11:36
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Originally Posted by What The View Post
Dr Dre

Thanks for your input Nathan Coull.
And I think you have not read the mood of mainline pilots very well.
I’m not that aforementioned person,

I want the flying too, on decent T&Cs like everyone else, but at the moment the mood seems to be of anger when there really hasn’t been much firm information presented about what the deal will entail.

It will come within time, maybe hold fire until then. See what the difference is between examples of trips on the rostering manual vs FRMS before declaring defeat.
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Old 13th Apr 2022, 11:46
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Originally Posted by dr dre View Post
I’m not that aforementioned person,

I want the flying too, on decent T&Cs like everyone else, but at the moment the mood seems to be of anger when there really hasn’t been much firm information presented about what the deal will entail.

It will come within time, maybe hold fire until then. See what the difference is between examples of trips on the rostering manual vs FRMS before declaring defeat.
Thank you for your input Qantas Angel then.
If you don’t know the names of people then check Workday.
I cannot wait for “the deal” to show up in my inbox as a fait accompli.
It will be shoved up the pilates flexible coits with gusto.
I am an Army of One.
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Old 13th Apr 2022, 11:46
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The negotiations are probably indicative of the likeness of any aircraft actually being ordered.
Of course there was the intial hype and media frenzy of new aircraft coming, but at the end of the day they still have a reputation of not actually ordering anything to uphold.

The greedy pilots (or even customers nowadays) will be the reason for the projects delay.
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Old 13th Apr 2022, 11:51
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Originally Posted by aussieflyboy View Post
Nearly identical to what NJS have been presented with regards to the A220.

I’m sure the QF IR team are patting themselves on the back thinking they’re doing a great job as they head off for there Zumba class.

Will be enjoyable watching what happens when both NJS and SH vote 90% NO.
Im not sure the vote will go that way at NJS. The company have successfully planted enough seeds of doubt in the minds of the pilots. Many are terrified of the promised outcome should a NO vote happen and most can’t afford to take the risk of the company following through. Threatening the very roof over your head is a sick form of negotiating! Especially after many were brought to their knees during stand down.

I doubt having your pilots feeling the way they are right now is a great way to operate a safe airline.

Last edited by gordonfvckingramsay; 13th Apr 2022 at 12:04.
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Old 13th Apr 2022, 11:53
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Originally Posted by gordonfvckingramsay View Post
Im not sure the vote will go that way at NJS. The company have successfully planted enough seeds of doubt in the minds of the pilots. Many are terrified of the promised outcome should a NO vote happen and most can’t afford to take the risk of the company following through. Threatening the very roof over your head is a sick form of negotiating!
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Old 13th Apr 2022, 11:54
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Originally Posted by What The View Post
Thank you for your input Qantas Angel then.
If you don’t know the names of people then check Workday.
I cannot wait for “the deal” to show up in my inbox as a fait accompli.
It will be shoved up the pilates flexible coits with gusto.
I am an Army of One.
Calling someone a Qantas angel these days is like the conspiracy theorists calling you a sheep because you got a covid vaccine. Just because they may have a slightly less emotionally charged opinion based on facts, doesn’t make them a Qantas angel.

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Old 13th Apr 2022, 11:57
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Originally Posted by dr dre View Post
Basically assigning a reserve duty after roster release if sickness or call outs have exhausted reserve coverage for that particular day

easily countered with a crew handshake agreement that if you’re dumping a reserve you do it at midnight. One R At a time too.
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Old 13th Apr 2022, 12:03
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Originally Posted by morno View Post
Calling someone a Qantas angel these days is like the conspiracy theorists calling you a sheep because you got a covid vaccine. Just because they may have a slightly less emotionally charged opinion based on facts, doesn’t make them a Qantas angel.

Gee Morno, what are “the facts”?
If you know them, you are close to the action.
The Company position will be thrown back at them with interest.
The reality is no one gives a shit.
Two years of stand down really enables someone to plan.
The facts are Qantas is at a precipice. It is not North Korea or some other dictatorship and Kim Jong Al is not Dear Leader.
The people at the coal face have had enough and do not fear the midget mafia.
Time for some tossing.

One R at a time.
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Old 13th Apr 2022, 12:33
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Originally Posted by What The View Post
Gee Morno, what are “the facts”?
If you know them, you are close to the action.
The Company position will be thrown back at them with interest.
The reality is no one gives a shit.
Two years of stand down really enables someone to plan.
The facts are Qantas is at a precipice. It is not North Korea or some other dictatorship and Kim Jong Al is not Dear Leader.
The people at the coal face have had enough and do not fear the midget mafia.
Time for some tossing.

One R at a time.
I think we just all need to calm down a bit, so far we don’t know the actual variations to be sought in order to secure the A321 for mainline.

For the most part it seems the sticking points are two issues, rostering and international ops. For the most part the aircraft will be operating mostly domestic, it is a domestic aircraft replacement. But it does have the range to fly medium haul international routes and no doubt that will form some of it’s operation. That’s something that will have to be sorted out in negotiations (which are continuing).

As for rostering I’ll hold fire until seeing what the difference the FRMS makes to actual rosters.

By the way if these variations are not suitable for you then you can always stay where you are or bid for a Long Haul type. This just allows those who want to fly the 321 on the conditions proposed. Some prioritise having a career over “shoving it up the company’s backside” to take revenge for what’s happened over the last two years.

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Old 13th Apr 2022, 12:36
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Originally Posted by dr dre View Post
I think we just all need to calm down a bit, so far we don’t know the actual variations to be sought in order to secure the A321 for mainline.

For the most part it seems the sticking points are two issues, rostering and international ops. For the most part the aircraft will be operating mostly domestic, it is a domestic aircraft replacement. But it does have the range to fly medium haul international routes and no doubt that will form some of it’s operation. That’s something that will have to be sorted out in negotiations (which are continuing).

As for rostering I’ll hold fire until seeing what the difference the FRMS makes to actual rosters.

By the way if these variations are not suitable for you then you can always stay where you are or bid for a Long Haul type. This just allows those who want to fly the 321 on the conditions proposed.
Thank you Nathan Coull.
Terrible response. “If you don’t like it, leave”.
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Old 13th Apr 2022, 12:41
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So Dr Dre and Morno have been exposed as stooges.

Never to be trusted.
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