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QF Short Haul EBA

Old 18th Apr 2022, 22:42
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Morno, just a couple of weeks ago you stated that you would grace Alliance with an application if the captain pay was 200K.

In 1987 I was making $80K flying a 36 passenger Dash-8. That’s 35 years ago to fly 1/3 the load half as fast.

I am acquainted with the building industry here in Qld. There are carpenter jobs going right now for $120/hr. That’s what you have to measure yourself against. Secondary school drop out plasterers on $98/hr. Which is $200K.

It vexes me mightily when pilots undervalue their skill set, to say the least of the sober dedication this job demands.
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Old 19th Apr 2022, 01:39
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Originally Posted by Australopithecus View Post
Morno, just a couple of weeks ago you stated that you would grace Alliance with an application if the captain pay was 200K.

In 1987 I was making $80K flying a 36 passenger Dash-8. Thatís 35 years ago to fly 1/3 the load half as fast.

I am acquainted with the building industry here in Qld. There are carpenter jobs going right now for $120/hr. Thatís what you have to measure yourself against. Secondary school drop out plasterers on $98/hr. Which is $200K.

It vexes me mightily when pilots undervalue their skill set, to say the least of the sober dedication this job demands.
Well said! I know a guy who knows a guy who, in 1990 was earning roughly $200k flying a 100 seat jet domestically in Australia. Plugging that info into the RBAís own inflation calculator gives a figure today of $416k, I rest my case.

https://www.rba.gov.au/calculator/annualDecimal.html
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Old 19th Apr 2022, 01:44
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The ONLY factor driving our pay and conditions down is not an economic imperative, itís one driven purely by an industrial revolution style dogma led by a few very sick individuals.
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Old 19th Apr 2022, 03:06
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Thereís no point arguing with the noisy minority. Good luck, I wish you well getting those $416k salaries.
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Old 19th Apr 2022, 04:27
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This talk of salaries is not the main issue, and the above quoted salary is not correct.

For the most part the company are happy with wages, but there is some uncertainty about how proposed rostering limits would work.

Until more is known itís best to hold fire.
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Old 19th Apr 2022, 06:44
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I am acquainted with the building industry here in Qld. There are carpenter jobs going right now for $120/hr. That’s what you have to measure yourself against. Secondary school drop out plasterers on $98/hr. Which is $200K.
What complete and utter bullshit.
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Old 19th Apr 2022, 08:57
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Originally Posted by tossbag View Post
What complete and utter bullshit.
Yeah champ? The casino project in BNE has hundreds of plasterers on that rate. And a mate was just contacted by a builder looking for 110 carpenters at the quoted rate. Last year's $55/hr for chippies has left the building. Tell you what, pm me and I will give you my address and then you can come and call me a liar to my face. No? Thatís what I thought.
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Old 19th Apr 2022, 09:23
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Yeah champ?
Post the job ad 'champ' let's see it.

Some of us pilots do have other quals behind us, including carpenters with building licences.

And how about you wait for a reply you hero, PM me your address, why wait for a PM from me?
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Old 19th Apr 2022, 09:29
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Chomp, chomp, chomp....
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Old 19th Apr 2022, 09:53
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Originally Posted by tossbag View Post
Post the job ad 'champ' let's see it.

Some of us pilots do have other quals behind us, including carpenters with building licences.

And how about you wait for a reply you hero, PM me your address, why wait for a PM from me?
No ad, I am relying on the word of two trusted (and equally astonished) builders pal. If you guys have all these qualifications but still choose to fly, yet donít have the nuts to demand better pay and conditions then nothing I say is going to convince you. And nice try to twist my offer.
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Old 19th Apr 2022, 10:24
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Ok well I’m not going to join the whinging contest but what I can tell you is Alliance are losing pilots like dandruff falling off a guys hair who never washes it. Services are being cancelled daily due to lack of crew, because there are far more greener pastures for their pilots. Let QF outsource Winton who cares, I’d take the redundancy and Immediately get another job. Can’t wait actually lol, idiots,
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Old 19th Apr 2022, 12:18
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No ad, I am relying on the word of two trusted (and equally astonished) builders pal. If you guys have all these qualifications but still choose to fly, yet don’t have the nuts to demand better pay and conditions then nothing I say is going to convince you.
Well, your builder pals sound a lot like pilots, exaggerating their earnings. I'm working back in my previous trade. The money mentioned is bullshit, especially in QLD. You might pull a pretty good earn in Vic on a union site, but nothing like that rubbish.

And nice try to twist my offer.
Clown.
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Old 19th Apr 2022, 12:36
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Don’t know why this discussion has turned to salary. QF are happy with the salary, they already said that.

The negotiations are about rostering rules.

So most of the above arguments can be disregarded if anyone wants to get the discussion back on track.
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Old 19th Apr 2022, 13:38
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Originally Posted by Derfred View Post
Donít know why this discussion has turned to salary. QF are happy with the salary, they already said that.

The negotiations are about rostering rules.

So most of the above arguments can be disregarded if anyone wants to get the discussion back on track.
Possibly one of the sticking points would be 2 crew back of the clock night sectors back from Asia. HK, China and Japan are all within the range of the XLR to anywhere in Australia.

Is an alternative of a 3 crew crew operation for the longest sectors with a business seat rest being proposed?

What do competitors like JAL, ANA, the Chinese carriers and Cathay do? I believe all flying from that far north is widebody only at the present time.

It may be argued that if a competitor is doing 2 crew BOC in a widebody whatís the difference to doing it 2 crew in a narrowbody as you wonít need a bunk.
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Old 19th Apr 2022, 13:52
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Originally Posted by dr dre View Post
Possibly one of the sticking points would be 2 crew back of the clock night sectors back from Asia. HK, China and Japan are all within the range of the XLR to anywhere in Australia.

Is an alternative of a 3 crew crew operation for the longest sectors with a business seat rest being proposed?

What do competitors like JAL, ANA, the Chinese carriers and Cathay do? I believe all flying from that far north is widebody only at the present time.

It may be argued that if a competitor is doing 2 crew BOC in a widebody whatís the difference to doing it 2 crew in a narrowbody as you wonít need a bunk.
Not sure what the difference is ďwidebody vs narrowbodyĒ. It obviously makes a difference to QF because they are currently asking narrowbody pilots to do flying that they wouldnít dream of asking widebody pilots to do.
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Old 19th Apr 2022, 16:05
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Just shows widebody and narrow body has become defunct, it’s just a bloody jet plane!
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Old 19th Apr 2022, 17:52
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Originally Posted by Angle of Attack View Post
Just shows widebody and narrow body has become defunct, itís just a bloody jet plane!
Well, historically, one has a crew rest and one doesn't. It was never a problem until some-one manufactured a narrow-body jet with huge fuel tanks and no crew rest, and a collective of accountants decided to capitalise on it.
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Old 19th Apr 2022, 22:35
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Originally Posted by Angle of Attack View Post
Just shows widebody and narrow body has become defunct, itís just a bloody jet plane!
Maybe true, but at present Qantas have a separate Enterprise Agreement for each 'type' and an FRMS that at times is contradictory when applying rules to each of the narrow and widebody fleets.

Whilst there is an opportunity for Qantas to use either to their advantage in an adversarial industrial relations environment, you can rest assured they will. A pity, as fatigue mitigation should never be influenced by industrial processesÖÖby either side.
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Old 20th Apr 2022, 02:23
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TBH if I was in charge of Qantas I would be doing the same, the future of Medium Haul are single aisle aircraft point to point with higher frequency, if I purchase those aircraft I want to utilise them to the max allowable under the FRMS, contractural restrictions to that would be top of my lost of things to goÖ.. just remember that once they go they will never come back. Who cares if you get to fly the new Ďjetsí, you cant have it all ways, if you want to keep your current agreement then do that but risk Joyce calling his bluff and moving flying elsewhere. What does it matter, these contracts were formed when this type of flying wasnít even possible and surely it warrants some adjustments to rules that are not fit for purpose any more?
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Old 20th Apr 2022, 02:38
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Ollie, youíre right in a way,

Narrowbody aircraft doing 10/11hr sectors is a very new thing, and previous contracts donít account for this type of flying. The company is quite determined to fly these thinner long haul routes on the aircraft.

Now if pilots are under the impression theyíre going to stop the company from deploying the 321 on 10/11hr sectors, or have it replaced by a LH widebody or have the 321 flown under the LH contract theyíre quite mistaken.

If they donít want the flying then it will go elsewhere. It isnít even like the A350 EBA where they were looking at forming a new contract company to outsource flying to, they already have 3 existing A320/321 operators in the group. It would be simple and those operators would be flying those 10/11hr routes with fewer protections than if they came to SH under an FRMS.

So firstly you need to accept that this flying is only going to be done on the SH contract, then you need to think about how to do it with suitable rostering. The 737 in recent times, a far less comfortable aircraft, has done 5.5hr back of the clock flights. Are current competitors flying 7-8hr sectors back of the clock from Asia to Australia 2 crew? For sectors 9-10 hrs is a 3rd crew with a business seat rest being proposed? Valid questions on how to formulate a plan to do what is essentially new flying.

And donít forget these aircraft will be primarily 737 replacements, so the vast majority of it will initially be domestic flying. Even when the full fleet size is reached I would guess international sectors would make up no more than 15% of total flights.
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