New 'Bonza' LCC launches middle 2022 with B737 MAX
Now you could say that RY not having a hull loss is a fluke, and they may still have a poor SMS. But then add in all the other EU carriers, LH, BA, KLM, IB, SAS, Wizz, Easyjet etc among many other who mostly or totally employ low houred cadets. Now you’re looking at a total fleet size and pilot group many times larger than Australia and we’re not seeing endemic issues.
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I have sat next to cadets here that shouldn’t have been let out into the wild. Management’s response was sorry about that, we will send them back to the sim. I pushed a bit further as I wasn’t impressed with one certain event, the result was we will work with the training providers to ensure these things don’t happen again. Ryan and Easy wouldn’t have let someone get that far with such poor standards.
It’s our standards here are just shit, that’s across many parts of this industry.
Last edited by PoppaJo; 20th Jun 2022 at 05:54.
It’s our standards here are just shit, that’s across many parts of this industry.
43, apologies I was referring to the standards around the cadet schemes here. I’ve seen the insides of such programs here and in South Asia. We are behind the ball. The issue I have raised with the said departments in the past, is exactly what you say, when things go outside the box, they struggle. It’s frustrating when you have a AP that sh!ts itself high up, and the young person next you can’t cope.
Yep I'll agree with that, Australia and its worlds best practice dictates we have to reinvent a wheel thats been polished to a gleam overseas. However we don't really have cadetships here, we just have self sponsored training with direct entry positions or possibilities. The training is not particularly tailored to airline specifics, just an Australian CPL/MECIR with some fluff for tertiary compliance. To me you are not really a cadet until you are in the training program of the specific company, and on their payroll, in any other case you are just a student pilot paying their way through a training course. I think Rex might even be the only one that you are guaranteed a full time permanent EBA position at the end as well.
This conversation reminded me about the BEA Flight 548 accident. Where leading up to the accident there was a number of incidents involving low time co-pilots and Captains in heated discussions about their competency. Then further industrial disputes led to a vast gap between the senior captains and the co-pilot group with things being very tense. One of the disputes was the requirement for senior FOs to be safety pilots in essence to babysit the low time cadets, they would miss out on pay due to no stick time. Enough that it may have triggered a heart attack in Captain Key, and then incapacitation on take-off that led to the accident, although we will never know what actually happened on the flight it was clear Key had an argument with subordinates that was described basically as the most violent you could get without physical interaction.
This conversation reminded me about the BEA Flight 548 accident. Where leading up to the accident there was a number of incidents involving low time co-pilots and Captains in heated discussions about their competency. Then further industrial disputes led to a vast gap between the senior captains and the co-pilot group with things being very tense. One of the disputes was the requirement for senior FOs to be safety pilots in essence to babysit the low time cadets, they would miss out on pay due to no stick time. Enough that it may have triggered a heart attack in Captain Key, and then incapacitation on take-off that led to the accident, although we will never know what actually happened on the flight it was clear Key had an argument with subordinates that was described basically as the most violent you could get without physical interaction.
Last edited by 43Inches; 20th Jun 2022 at 11:12.
This conversation reminded me about the BEA Flight 548 accident. Where leading up to the accident there was a number of incidents involving low time co-pilots and Captains in heated discussions about their competency. Then further industrial disputes led to a vast gap between the senior captains and the co-pilot group with things being very tense. One of the disputes was the requirement for senior FOs to be safety pilots in essence to babysit the low time cadets, they would miss out on pay due to no stick time. Enough that it may have triggered a heart attack in Captain Key, and then incapacitation on take-off that led to the accident, although we will never know what actually happened on the flight it was clear Key had an argument with subordinates that was described basically as the most violent you could get without physical interaction.
Last edited by dr dre; 20th Jun 2022 at 12:41.
What’s all this stuff got to do with Bonza I ask?
Getting off topic seems to be like bar talk here where everyone throws in their two bob’s worth on multiple subjects not related to the principal topic.
Getting off topic seems to be like bar talk here where everyone throws in their two bob’s worth on multiple subjects not related to the principal topic.
To know that answer fully one would have to be intimately involved over the long term with both the ab initio, commercial, instrument, multicrew and then airline endorsement, recurrent and command training with a range of airlines that hired pilots from different backgrounds and also have hard statistical data to objectively evaluate outcomes from differing pilot backgrounds. And also have knowledge of different SMS’s and how they adapt to differing backgrounds.
As none of us would have access to such data we go mostly off anecdotal experience, and then there’s such a wide range of opinions there.
But.......
I would say the object of airline safety is to provide relatively safe outcomes and very few incident per flight as can be. Now if we look at Ryanair we can see an airline that has mostly employed low houred ab-initio cadets and has had outcomes equal to or better than Australian carriers, who employ pilots from a range of backgrounds, both cadet and not.
Now you could say that RY not having a hull loss is a fluke, and they may still have a poor SMS. But then add in all the other EU carriers, LH, BA, KLM, IB, SAS, Wizz, Easyjet etc among many other who mostly or totally employ low houred cadets. Now you’re looking at a total fleet size and pilot group many times larger than Australia and we’re not seeing endemic issues.
You can try to argue the differences in outcome from cadets vs a non cadets, but with global aviation being relatively so safe you’re really arguing semantics.
As none of us would have access to such data we go mostly off anecdotal experience, and then there’s such a wide range of opinions there.
But.......
I would say the object of airline safety is to provide relatively safe outcomes and very few incident per flight as can be. Now if we look at Ryanair we can see an airline that has mostly employed low houred ab-initio cadets and has had outcomes equal to or better than Australian carriers, who employ pilots from a range of backgrounds, both cadet and not.
Now you could say that RY not having a hull loss is a fluke, and they may still have a poor SMS. But then add in all the other EU carriers, LH, BA, KLM, IB, SAS, Wizz, Easyjet etc among many other who mostly or totally employ low houred cadets. Now you’re looking at a total fleet size and pilot group many times larger than Australia and we’re not seeing endemic issues.
You can try to argue the differences in outcome from cadets vs a non cadets, but with global aviation being relatively so safe you’re really arguing semantics.
This thread drift has come about because of the idea by Bonza to provide uniforms which belie the responsibility of the role, in the opinion of many posters. DUS made it about egos, claiming that wanting to look professional was pandering to the sense of self-importance he perceived bulletin board members to be exhibiting. Others latched onto that idea morphing it into an argument about age, standards and the dumbing down of the profession.
The gradual dumbing down of the profession and a general ambivalence to perceptions is disappointing. I don't understand why people do not appear to value their skills and the role accordingly, or why it is in anyone's interest to accept the gradual erosion of the profession by bean counters, snake oil salesmen and the marketing department. The casual attire Bonza is proposing does not appear professional to me, or be taking aircrew roles seriously, however the spin-off may be a more comfortable attire that is fit for purpose.
The gradual dumbing down of the profession and a general ambivalence to perceptions is disappointing. I don't understand why people do not appear to value their skills and the role accordingly, or why it is in anyone's interest to accept the gradual erosion of the profession by bean counters, snake oil salesmen and the marketing department. The casual attire Bonza is proposing does not appear professional to me, or be taking aircrew roles seriously, however the spin-off may be a more comfortable attire that is fit for purpose.
From the looks of their uniform Bonza is another attempt at socialising responsibility where all employees are equal. That is of course until something goes wrong then suddenly it's all the Captain fault.
The only pilots I’ve seen wearing sneakers to work are those conducting a ferry. One told me once when they flew into China they had to change to full uniform so they didn’t upset the authorities.
Cebu Pacific is a fairly casual uniform, still looks pretty polished however. AirAsia once also tried a causal like uniform for weekends only, shareholders claimed it tarnished the brand and said no.
Cebu Pacific is a fairly casual uniform, still looks pretty polished however. AirAsia once also tried a causal like uniform for weekends only, shareholders claimed it tarnished the brand and said no.
Sorry to do what lead balloons do, but…
If ‘pilot’ were a profession, it would be a breach of ethical rules for them to criticise, publicly, their colleagues in fora like this. If anyone can provide me a link to the medical doctors' or practising lawyers' equivalent of PPRuNe in Australia, I’ll stand corrected.
And I’ve not seen too many EBAs for medical doctors, or lawyers, in private practise. Nobody can stop them from ‘striking’ or force them back to ‘work’ if they do.
I have enormous respect for everyone in row 0 and I reckon you’re underpaid for your expertise and the responsibilities you bear but, as a group, holders of commercial pilot licences seem hell bent on remaining labourers competing (and squabbling with each other publicly) in a labour market.
If ‘pilot’ were a profession, it would be a breach of ethical rules for them to criticise, publicly, their colleagues in fora like this. If anyone can provide me a link to the medical doctors' or practising lawyers' equivalent of PPRuNe in Australia, I’ll stand corrected.
And I’ve not seen too many EBAs for medical doctors, or lawyers, in private practise. Nobody can stop them from ‘striking’ or force them back to ‘work’ if they do.
I have enormous respect for everyone in row 0 and I reckon you’re underpaid for your expertise and the responsibilities you bear but, as a group, holders of commercial pilot licences seem hell bent on remaining labourers competing (and squabbling with each other publicly) in a labour market.
Sorry to do what lead balloons do, but…
If ‘pilot’ were a profession, it would be a breach of ethical rules for them to criticise, publicly, their colleagues in fora like this. If anyone can provide me a link to the medical doctors' or practising lawyers' equivalent of PPRuNe in Australia, I’ll stand corrected.
And I’ve not seen too many EBAs for medical doctors, or lawyers, in private practise. Nobody can stop them from ‘striking’ or force them back to ‘work’ if they do.
I have enormous respect for everyone in row 0 and I reckon you’re underpaid for your expertise and the responsibilities you bear but, as a group, holders of commercial pilot licences seem hell bent on remaining labourers competing (and squabbling with each other publicly) in a labour market.
If ‘pilot’ were a profession, it would be a breach of ethical rules for them to criticise, publicly, their colleagues in fora like this. If anyone can provide me a link to the medical doctors' or practising lawyers' equivalent of PPRuNe in Australia, I’ll stand corrected.
And I’ve not seen too many EBAs for medical doctors, or lawyers, in private practise. Nobody can stop them from ‘striking’ or force them back to ‘work’ if they do.
I have enormous respect for everyone in row 0 and I reckon you’re underpaid for your expertise and the responsibilities you bear but, as a group, holders of commercial pilot licences seem hell bent on remaining labourers competing (and squabbling with each other publicly) in a labour market.
I'm unable to read anything on "PagingDr". Are you able to provide a link to material on that website to which any member of the public has access? Do Australian medical professionals post on it?
PagingDr is full of rumours, innuendo, and slapping ppl over the head with a big yard stick for med students and drs. Make no mistake, most if not all professions have their own political issues. Medicine is possibly one of the worst.
I confess that I don't watch much TV, much less commercial TV. Are you able to provide any link to any of the doctor/lawyer equivalent of the kind of squabbles that occur on PPruNe regularly?
Yes plenty of Aussie Drs.
Any member of the public can read what's said on PPruNe, without registering.
Doctors complaining about work/life balance and how done by they are is not casting aspersions on each other’s professionalism and competence. Most doctors and lawyers in private practice put in far more hours ‘on duty’ than most commercial pilots ever will.
And most don’t have the luxury of complaining about their boss, because they are their boss.
Doctors complaining about work/life balance and how done by they are is not casting aspersions on each other’s professionalism and competence. Most doctors and lawyers in private practice put in far more hours ‘on duty’ than most commercial pilots ever will.
And most don’t have the luxury of complaining about their boss, because they are their boss.
Crews apparently now going all in house?
Was a pipe dream before.
Was a pipe dream before.
