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New 'Bonza' LCC launches middle 2022 with B737 MAX

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New 'Bonza' LCC launches middle 2022 with B737 MAX

Old 20th Jun 2022, 05:42
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Originally Posted by dr dre View Post

Now you could say that RY not having a hull loss is a fluke, and they may still have a poor SMS. But then add in all the other EU carriers, LH, BA, KLM, IB, SAS, Wizz, Easyjet etc among many other who mostly or totally employ low houred cadets. Now you’re looking at a total fleet size and pilot group many times larger than Australia and we’re not seeing endemic issues.

.
However is a big difference between all those programs run by those operations, and ours. They invest significantly in those programs and it’s people, they are big business backed by solid check and training programs. You couldn’t even compare the EZY and Jetstar programs together, one is a polished machine the other is a turd.

I have sat next to cadets here that shouldn’t have been let out into the wild. Management’s response was sorry about that, we will send them back to the sim. I pushed a bit further as I wasn’t impressed with one certain event, the result was we will work with the training providers to ensure these things don’t happen again. Ryan and Easy wouldn’t have let someone get that far with such poor standards.

It’s our standards here are just shit, that’s across many parts of this industry.



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Old 20th Jun 2022, 08:12
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It’s our standards here are just shit, that’s across many parts of this industry.
Hmm, that statement right there probably says straight away you have never worked overseas or done foreign conversions or similar training. If you think Australian training standards are bad you ain't seen nothing outside Australia. Not saying we are the top dogs, but there are many worse places including euroland in general. The difference is do we need such high standards or not, ie, the space shuttle mentality. I'm not saying foreign training is terrible all round either, but standards are very much variable across the board and pilot skill and technique is still very much what they are exposed to and face rather than specifically the training received. Modern Jet operations are safe because of the Automation combined with SOPs, the danger has been bleached from the system to make it fairly straight forward for a low time pilot to cope with most things, until of course the unexpected or untrained happens. The Air France 330 accident highlights that, if the SOP is safe, good outcomes, if the SOP is flawed, bad outcomes.
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Old 20th Jun 2022, 09:16
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43, apologies I was referring to the standards around the cadet schemes here. I’ve seen the insides of such programs here and in South Asia. We are behind the ball. The issue I have raised with the said departments in the past, is exactly what you say, when things go outside the box, they struggle. It’s frustrating when you have a AP that sh!ts itself high up, and the young person next you can’t cope.
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Old 20th Jun 2022, 10:55
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Yep I'll agree with that, Australia and its worlds best practice dictates we have to reinvent a wheel thats been polished to a gleam overseas. However we don't really have cadetships here, we just have self sponsored training with direct entry positions or possibilities. The training is not particularly tailored to airline specifics, just an Australian CPL/MECIR with some fluff for tertiary compliance. To me you are not really a cadet until you are in the training program of the specific company, and on their payroll, in any other case you are just a student pilot paying their way through a training course. I think Rex might even be the only one that you are guaranteed a full time permanent EBA position at the end as well.

This conversation reminded me about the BEA Flight 548 accident. Where leading up to the accident there was a number of incidents involving low time co-pilots and Captains in heated discussions about their competency. Then further industrial disputes led to a vast gap between the senior captains and the co-pilot group with things being very tense. One of the disputes was the requirement for senior FOs to be safety pilots in essence to babysit the low time cadets, they would miss out on pay due to no stick time. Enough that it may have triggered a heart attack in Captain Key, and then incapacitation on take-off that led to the accident, although we will never know what actually happened on the flight it was clear Key had an argument with subordinates that was described basically as the most violent you could get without physical interaction.

Last edited by 43Inches; 20th Jun 2022 at 11:12.
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Old 20th Jun 2022, 12:15
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Originally Posted by 43Inches View Post

This conversation reminded me about the BEA Flight 548 accident. Where leading up to the accident there was a number of incidents involving low time co-pilots and Captains in heated discussions about their competency. Then further industrial disputes led to a vast gap between the senior captains and the co-pilot group with things being very tense. One of the disputes was the requirement for senior FOs to be safety pilots in essence to babysit the low time cadets, they would miss out on pay due to no stick time. Enough that it may have triggered a heart attack in Captain Key, and then incapacitation on take-off that led to the accident, although we will never know what actually happened on the flight it was clear Key had an argument with subordinates that was described basically as the most violent you could get without physical interaction.
It wasn’t because Key’s heart attack was “triggered” by the “stress” of having to fly with a low houred cadet. The F/Os and Captains were on opposite sides of the industrial dispute, Key had come across another pilot on the other side of the dispute in the crew room preflight who wasn’t on his flight that day, and proceeded to get into a very heated argument. Key’s two pilots operating with him that day were both very young and junior, they weren’t involved in the argument but the experience of seeing a very senior and known “problem” Captain tear shreds off someone else preflight probably made them very unwilling to speak up in the flight deck, and then when Key had his heart issues and inadvertently retracted the leading edge devices sending BEA548 into a stall after take off the junior pilots kept their mouths shut lest they were on the receiving end of an outburst from a guy who seemed to be on the warpath against junior pilots.

Last edited by dr dre; 20th Jun 2022 at 12:41.
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Old 20th Jun 2022, 15:45
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What’s all this stuff got to do with Bonza I ask?
Getting off topic seems to be like bar talk here where everyone throws in their two bob’s worth on multiple subjects not related to the principal topic.
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Old 20th Jun 2022, 22:14
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Thread drift, because it NEVER happens on any bulletin board EVER.
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Old 21st Jun 2022, 01:11
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Originally Posted by dr dre View Post
To know that answer fully one would have to be intimately involved over the long term with both the ab initio, commercial, instrument, multicrew and then airline endorsement, recurrent and command training with a range of airlines that hired pilots from different backgrounds and also have hard statistical data to objectively evaluate outcomes from differing pilot backgrounds. And also have knowledge of different SMS’s and how they adapt to differing backgrounds.

As none of us would have access to such data we go mostly off anecdotal experience, and then there’s such a wide range of opinions there.

But.......

I would say the object of airline safety is to provide relatively safe outcomes and very few incident per flight as can be. Now if we look at Ryanair we can see an airline that has mostly employed low houred ab-initio cadets and has had outcomes equal to or better than Australian carriers, who employ pilots from a range of backgrounds, both cadet and not.

Now you could say that RY not having a hull loss is a fluke, and they may still have a poor SMS. But then add in all the other EU carriers, LH, BA, KLM, IB, SAS, Wizz, Easyjet etc among many other who mostly or totally employ low houred cadets. Now you’re looking at a total fleet size and pilot group many times larger than Australia and we’re not seeing endemic issues.

You can try to argue the differences in outcome from cadets vs a non cadets, but with global aviation being relatively so safe you’re really arguing semantics.
So whether RYR uses cadets or not, without sufficient background insight to their operations, you cannot say why their hull loss rate is what it is. I'm not arguing outcomes regarding cadets vs non-cadets. Outcomes are driven by many factors including personnel. "Relatively safe outcomes?" - haven't heard that before.

This thread drift has come about because of the idea by Bonza to provide uniforms which belie the responsibility of the role, in the opinion of many posters. DUS made it about egos, claiming that wanting to look professional was pandering to the sense of self-importance he perceived bulletin board members to be exhibiting. Others latched onto that idea morphing it into an argument about age, standards and the dumbing down of the profession.

The gradual dumbing down of the profession and a general ambivalence to perceptions is disappointing. I don't understand why people do not appear to value their skills and the role accordingly, or why it is in anyone's interest to accept the gradual erosion of the profession by bean counters, snake oil salesmen and the marketing department. The casual attire Bonza is proposing does not appear professional to me, or be taking aircrew roles seriously, however the spin-off may be a more comfortable attire that is fit for purpose.
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Old 21st Jun 2022, 02:17
  #529 (permalink)  
 
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The gradual dumbing down of the profession and a general ambivalence to perceptions is disappointing. I don't understand why people do not appear to value their skills and the role accordingly, or why it is in anyone's interest to accept the gradual erosion of the profession by bean counters, snake oil salesmen and the marketing department. The casual attire Bonza is proposing does not appear professional to me, or be taking aircrew roles seriously, however the spin-off may be a more comfortable attire that is fit for purpose.
Problem is that you want people to refuse jobs so that they can uphold your values. While I would probably agree with the sentiment I don't think there is much you can do other than quit or not apply.
From the looks of their uniform Bonza is another attempt at socialising responsibility where all employees are equal. That is of course until something goes wrong then suddenly it's all the Captain fault.
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Old 21st Jun 2022, 02:24
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The only pilots I’ve seen wearing sneakers to work are those conducting a ferry. One told me once when they flew into China they had to change to full uniform so they didn’t upset the authorities.

Cebu Pacific is a fairly casual uniform, still looks pretty polished however. AirAsia once also tried a causal like uniform for weekends only, shareholders claimed it tarnished the brand and said no.
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Old 21st Jun 2022, 02:56
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Originally Posted by neville_nobody View Post
From the looks of their uniform Bonza is another attempt at socialising responsibility where all employees are equal. That is of course until something goes wrong then suddenly it's all the Captain fault.
Agree.

Originally Posted by neville_nobody View Post
Problem is that you want people to refuse jobs so that they can uphold your values. While I would probably agree with the sentiment I don't think there is much you can do other than quit or not apply.
I don't want anyone to refuse a job, we all have our own motivations. My values are my values, I don't expect anyone else to uphold them. The woke ship sailed on that a few years ago. If I really feel strongly about it then yes, the obvious answer is don't apply. My point is really that pilots appear to be the last people in control of the profession.
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Old 21st Jun 2022, 07:56
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Sorry to do what lead balloons do, but…

If ‘pilot’ were a profession, it would be a breach of ethical rules for them to criticise, publicly, their colleagues in fora like this. If anyone can provide me a link to the medical doctors' or practising lawyers' equivalent of PPRuNe in Australia, I’ll stand corrected.

And I’ve not seen too many EBAs for medical doctors, or lawyers, in private practise. Nobody can stop them from ‘striking’ or force them back to ‘work’ if they do.

I have enormous respect for everyone in row 0 and I reckon you’re underpaid for your expertise and the responsibilities you bear but, as a group, holders of commercial pilot licences seem hell bent on remaining labourers competing (and squabbling with each other publicly) in a labour market.
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Old 21st Jun 2022, 08:56
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Originally Posted by Lead Balloon View Post
Sorry to do what lead balloons do, but…

If ‘pilot’ were a profession, it would be a breach of ethical rules for them to criticise, publicly, their colleagues in fora like this. If anyone can provide me a link to the medical doctors' or practising lawyers' equivalent of PPRuNe in Australia, I’ll stand corrected.

And I’ve not seen too many EBAs for medical doctors, or lawyers, in private practise. Nobody can stop them from ‘striking’ or force them back to ‘work’ if they do.

I have enormous respect for everyone in row 0 and I reckon you’re underpaid for your expertise and the responsibilities you bear but, as a group, holders of commercial pilot licences seem hell bent on remaining labourers competing (and squabbling with each other publicly) in a labour market.
PagingDr is full of rumours, innuendo, and slapping ppl over the head with a big yard stick for med students and drs. Make no mistake, most if not all professions have their own political issues. Medicine is possibly one of the worst.
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Old 21st Jun 2022, 09:33
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I'm unable to read anything on "PagingDr". Are you able to provide a link to material on that website to which any member of the public has access? Do Australian medical professionals post on it?
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Old 22nd Jun 2022, 01:18
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Perhaps Bonza are putting workers on as sub contractors, a condition of being putting on subcontractors is that can not supply them a uniform...
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Old 22nd Jun 2022, 01:46
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PagingDr is full of rumours, innuendo, and slapping ppl over the head with a big yard stick for med students and drs. Make no mistake, most if not all professions have their own political issues. Medicine is possibly one of the worst.
There's been a few issues dragged into the public light WRT the medical industry recently, even regarding the top Doctor at Canberra Hospital. That's not even going into the dodgy antics of insurance company doctors and many other goings on. Having been through a few medical procedures the docs definitely will name and shame others in the game they think you should avoid that's for sure. You are definitely more likely to see medical professionals on ACA condemning each other than pilots.
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Old 22nd Jun 2022, 07:51
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I confess that I don't watch much TV, much less commercial TV. Are you able to provide any link to any of the doctor/lawyer equivalent of the kind of squabbles that occur on PPRuNe regularly?
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Old 22nd Jun 2022, 11:29
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Originally Posted by Lead Balloon View Post
I'm unable to read anything on "PagingDr". Are you able to provide a link to material on that website to which any member of the public has access? Do Australian medical professionals post on it?
unfortunately not public access. You need to sign up which is easy enough to do. Lots of guys with rulers measuring on there and complaining mainly about work/life balance and how done by Drs are.

Yes plenty of Aussie Drs.
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Old 22nd Jun 2022, 22:01
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Any member of the public can read what's said on PPRuNe, without registering.

Doctors complaining about work/life balance and how done by they are is not casting aspersions on each other’s professionalism and competence. Most doctors and lawyers in private practice put in far more hours ‘on duty’ than most commercial pilots ever will.

And most don’t have the luxury of complaining about their boss, because they are their boss.
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Old 29th Jun 2022, 01:54
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Crews apparently now going all in house?

Was a pipe dream before.
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