All borders to reopen.
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We still spend huge amounts of money on education, transmission control, contact tracing etc. We don’t go “we have a vaccine and will learn to live with it”.
Measles, whooping cough, hepatitis B, influenza all have significant non-vaccine public health measures despite high vaccination rates. I’d imagine COVID will be the same.
Life here in Aus is basically normal, we have QR codes everywhere to check in and tape on the ground but other than that you’d have no idea of much happening. It’ll be hard for us to give that up to have whinging poms providing Bondi Rescue fodder.
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There will be future mutations, nothing can be done about that and this virus is going nowhere. Either we learn to live with it, or life even close to what we knew, is over.
Personally, I’d like to learn to live with it. Life as it is right now is not for me
Personally, I’d like to learn to live with it. Life as it is right now is not for me
I think Daniel Andrews is the consumate politician, he always tells me the truth, tells it to me straight. Both he and VicPol are on the same page and that's what you want, the police in the back pocket of the ruling party.
Annie up in Queensland, she's keeping me safe, when the virus was running rampant in QLD, the hospitals were over run, all ventilators used, she ensured that queensland hospitals were for queenslanders only. We have a saying up in queensland 'we're all in this together' and when those hospitals were secured for us, we proved that all us queenslanders were indeed all in it together. NSW was good enough to let the overflow into the tweed hospital, even though we told them to eff off when they wanted to come up to gods country hospitals.
That Western Australian bloke, how good is he? Mr 80% he's keeping me safe, and everybody else in Australia, quick with advice to every other state that they too can eliminate the virus, well, except NSW if his advice to funnel every returning Australian through Sydney airport and hotels is to be followed. Bloody NSW taking all the flotsam and jetsam. What a hole, they all walk around the streets like there's no bloody cases, it's irresponsible and just damn dangerous, next thing you know they'll be letting friggin' kiwis in, FFS.
Don't start me on that bloody dangerous and irresponsible state, NSW, not keeping anybody bloody safe, what a bloody fool the premier is, not keeping anybody safe.
When you look at who's gotten us through all the hard times in this country, throughout history, it's our precious boomers, god love em. Can we just listen to them when they say 'I'm scared, I'm petrified' 'Annie told me I'd be dead within days if I didn't vote her back in' 'Dan told me I'd be dead within days, because the one case that caused lockdown was spreading at an unprecedented rate......to the two other people' 'Mark told me I'd be dead within days, while the one case they picked up was spreading at unprecedented rates to........no one'
I know who I trust and believe you fools.
Last edited by McLimit; 23rd Feb 2021 at 11:59.
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You have absolutely no place in this country, let alone society. I don't want anybody new in my backyard, let alone my country.
I think Daniel Andrews is the consumate politician, he always tells me the truth, tells it to me straight. Both he and VicPol are on the same page and that's what you want, the police in the back pocket of the ruling party.
Annie up in Queensland, she's keeping me safe, when the virus was running rampant in QLD, the hospitals were over run, all ventilators used, she ensured that queensland hospitals were for queenslanders only. We have a saying up in queensland 'we're all in this together' and when those hospitals were secured for us, we proved that all us queenslanders were indeed all in it together. NSW was good enough to let the overflow into the tweed hospital, even though we told them to eff off when they wanted to come up to gods country hospitals.
That Western Australian bloke, how good is he? Mr 80% he's keeping me safe, and everybody else in Australia, quick with advice to every other state that they too can eliminate the virus, well, except NSW if his advice to funnel every returning Australian through Sydney airport and hotels. Bloody NSW taking all the flotsam and jetsam. What a hole, they all walk around the streets like there's no bloody cases, it's irresponsible and just damn dangerous, next thing you know they'll be letting friggin' kiwis in, FFS.
Don't start me on that bloody dangerous and irresponsible state, NSW, not keeping anybody bloody safe, what a bloody fool the premier is, not keeping anybody safe.
When you look at who's gotten us through all the hard times in this country, throughout history, it's our precious boomers, god love em. Can we just listen to them when they say 'I'm scared, I'm petrified' 'Annie told me I'd be dead within days if I didn't vote her back in' 'Dan told me I'd be dead within days, because the one case that caused lockdown was spreading at an unprecedented rate......to the two other people' 'Mark told me I'd be dead within days, while the one case they picked up was spreading at unprecedented rates to........no one'
I know who I trust and believe you fools.
I think Daniel Andrews is the consumate politician, he always tells me the truth, tells it to me straight. Both he and VicPol are on the same page and that's what you want, the police in the back pocket of the ruling party.
Annie up in Queensland, she's keeping me safe, when the virus was running rampant in QLD, the hospitals were over run, all ventilators used, she ensured that queensland hospitals were for queenslanders only. We have a saying up in queensland 'we're all in this together' and when those hospitals were secured for us, we proved that all us queenslanders were indeed all in it together. NSW was good enough to let the overflow into the tweed hospital, even though we told them to eff off when they wanted to come up to gods country hospitals.
That Western Australian bloke, how good is he? Mr 80% he's keeping me safe, and everybody else in Australia, quick with advice to every other state that they too can eliminate the virus, well, except NSW if his advice to funnel every returning Australian through Sydney airport and hotels. Bloody NSW taking all the flotsam and jetsam. What a hole, they all walk around the streets like there's no bloody cases, it's irresponsible and just damn dangerous, next thing you know they'll be letting friggin' kiwis in, FFS.
Don't start me on that bloody dangerous and irresponsible state, NSW, not keeping anybody bloody safe, what a bloody fool the premier is, not keeping anybody safe.
When you look at who's gotten us through all the hard times in this country, throughout history, it's our precious boomers, god love em. Can we just listen to them when they say 'I'm scared, I'm petrified' 'Annie told me I'd be dead within days if I didn't vote her back in' 'Dan told me I'd be dead within days, because the one case that caused lockdown was spreading at an unprecedented rate......to the two other people' 'Mark told me I'd be dead within days, while the one case they picked up was spreading at unprecedented rates to........no one'
I know who I trust and believe you fools.
You have absolutely no place in this country, let alone society. I don't want anybody new in my backyard, let alone my country.
I think Daniel Andrews is the consumate politician, he always tells me the truth, tells it to me straight. Both he and VicPol are on the same page and that's what you want, the police in the back pocket of the ruling party.
Annie up in Queensland, she's keeping me safe, when the virus was running rampant in QLD, the hospitals were over run, all ventilators used, she ensured that queensland hospitals were for queenslanders only. We have a saying up in queensland 'we're all in this together' and when those hospitals were secured for us, we proved that all us queenslanders were indeed all in it together. NSW was good enough to let the overflow into the tweed hospital, even though we told them to eff off when they wanted to come up to gods country hospitals.
That Western Australian bloke, how good is he? Mr 80% he's keeping me safe, and everybody else in Australia, quick with advice to every other state that they too can eliminate the virus, well, except NSW if his advice to funnel every returning Australian through Sydney airport and hotels is to be followed. Bloody NSW taking all the flotsam and jetsam. What a hole, they all walk around the streets like there's no bloody cases, it's irresponsible and just damn dangerous, next thing you know they'll be letting friggin' kiwis in, FFS.
Don't start me on that bloody dangerous and irresponsible state, NSW, not keeping anybody bloody safe, what a bloody fool the premier is, not keeping anybody safe.
When you look at who's gotten us through all the hard times in this country, throughout history, it's our precious boomers, god love em. Can we just listen to them when they say 'I'm scared, I'm petrified' 'Annie told me I'd be dead within days if I didn't vote her back in' 'Dan told me I'd be dead within days, because the one case that caused lockdown was spreading at an unprecedented rate......to the two other people' 'Mark told me I'd be dead within days, while the one case they picked up was spreading at unprecedented rates to........no one'
I know who I trust and believe you fools.
I think Daniel Andrews is the consumate politician, he always tells me the truth, tells it to me straight. Both he and VicPol are on the same page and that's what you want, the police in the back pocket of the ruling party.
Annie up in Queensland, she's keeping me safe, when the virus was running rampant in QLD, the hospitals were over run, all ventilators used, she ensured that queensland hospitals were for queenslanders only. We have a saying up in queensland 'we're all in this together' and when those hospitals were secured for us, we proved that all us queenslanders were indeed all in it together. NSW was good enough to let the overflow into the tweed hospital, even though we told them to eff off when they wanted to come up to gods country hospitals.
That Western Australian bloke, how good is he? Mr 80% he's keeping me safe, and everybody else in Australia, quick with advice to every other state that they too can eliminate the virus, well, except NSW if his advice to funnel every returning Australian through Sydney airport and hotels is to be followed. Bloody NSW taking all the flotsam and jetsam. What a hole, they all walk around the streets like there's no bloody cases, it's irresponsible and just damn dangerous, next thing you know they'll be letting friggin' kiwis in, FFS.
Don't start me on that bloody dangerous and irresponsible state, NSW, not keeping anybody bloody safe, what a bloody fool the premier is, not keeping anybody safe.
When you look at who's gotten us through all the hard times in this country, throughout history, it's our precious boomers, god love em. Can we just listen to them when they say 'I'm scared, I'm petrified' 'Annie told me I'd be dead within days if I didn't vote her back in' 'Dan told me I'd be dead within days, because the one case that caused lockdown was spreading at an unprecedented rate......to the two other people' 'Mark told me I'd be dead within days, while the one case they picked up was spreading at unprecedented rates to........no one'
I know who I trust and believe you fools.
At least one person here understands your satire!
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We have vaccines for many communicable diseases.
We still spend huge amounts of money on education, transmission control, contact tracing etc. We don’t go “we have a vaccine and will learn to live with it”.
Measles, whooping cough, hepatitis B, influenza all have significant non-vaccine public health measures despite high vaccination rates. I’d imagine COVID will be the same.
Danny is indignant at even having a test to go travelling, wants to bring whatever new mutation he’s acquired with him quarantine and test free because he’s had a vaccine.
Life here in Aus is basically normal, we have QR codes everywhere to check in and tape on the ground but other than that you’d have no idea of much happening. It’ll be hard for us to give that up to have whinging poms providing Bondi Rescue fodder.
We still spend huge amounts of money on education, transmission control, contact tracing etc. We don’t go “we have a vaccine and will learn to live with it”.
Measles, whooping cough, hepatitis B, influenza all have significant non-vaccine public health measures despite high vaccination rates. I’d imagine COVID will be the same.
Danny is indignant at even having a test to go travelling, wants to bring whatever new mutation he’s acquired with him quarantine and test free because he’s had a vaccine.
Life here in Aus is basically normal, we have QR codes everywhere to check in and tape on the ground but other than that you’d have no idea of much happening. It’ll be hard for us to give that up to have whinging poms providing Bondi Rescue fodder.
Fair enough...
I have no skin in the game now, my Aussie grandparents are no longer with us, but still intrigued by how things are panning out back there.
My point is, there will always be new mutations, vaccines aren’t gonna stop that. The only way you’re going to keep them out is to keep the doors shut indefinitely. If you’re happy with that solution, then good on ya, you’ve played a blinder.
I still have family and friends there tho, and I know how much you like to travel. So I can’t quite work out your endgame.
And I wouldn't worry about the whinging poms too much, they have plenty of other places desperate to take their money.
Last edited by BA_Baracas; 23rd Feb 2021 at 12:50. Reason: Repeated myself
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My Son, Daughter and Grandchildren are all Australian citizens living in WA.
I have not seen them for over a year now. If the plan is to never have any cases even when the vaccine is rolled out, the borders will have to remain shut forever and I am unlikley to see them ever again.
I am not alone with this situation of course. No doubt it is causing a great deal of heartache for many other people as it is for my family and myself.
As it stands I am not a close enough relative as a parent to get an exception to enter Australia.
If one of them became terminally ill or died its "possible" that I would be allowed in. But we do not want that to happen of course.
I can understand the logic of wanting to keep the borders closed right now, The Australian Government and the State Premiers have done a very good job of Protecting Australian citizens from the virus,
However even with vaccines there will be cases but much less in numbers than without the vaccine. Severe illness and deaths will also be significantly be reduced.
The vaccine should help control Covid while letting society return to normal rather like the seasonal Flu is controlled with a modified vaccine to cope with variants each year. So where is this policy of total elimination going. Is there ever going to be a way out.
Surely the time must come when citizens with overseas close relatives in my case a parent can once again come to Australia to see there family.
Personally I would be happy to Take a covid test before departure to Australia, Produce a vaccination certificate. Go into a 14 night or whatever Quarantine. Get another couple of tests before being released into society all at my own cost.
If 1500 or whatever the number was of Tennis people, Actors TV stars etc are allowed in why are close families being kept apart causing so much misery.
Sorry to rant on but wonder what the general opinion is regarding this.
..
I have not seen them for over a year now. If the plan is to never have any cases even when the vaccine is rolled out, the borders will have to remain shut forever and I am unlikley to see them ever again.
I am not alone with this situation of course. No doubt it is causing a great deal of heartache for many other people as it is for my family and myself.
As it stands I am not a close enough relative as a parent to get an exception to enter Australia.
If one of them became terminally ill or died its "possible" that I would be allowed in. But we do not want that to happen of course.
I can understand the logic of wanting to keep the borders closed right now, The Australian Government and the State Premiers have done a very good job of Protecting Australian citizens from the virus,
However even with vaccines there will be cases but much less in numbers than without the vaccine. Severe illness and deaths will also be significantly be reduced.
The vaccine should help control Covid while letting society return to normal rather like the seasonal Flu is controlled with a modified vaccine to cope with variants each year. So where is this policy of total elimination going. Is there ever going to be a way out.
Surely the time must come when citizens with overseas close relatives in my case a parent can once again come to Australia to see there family.
Personally I would be happy to Take a covid test before departure to Australia, Produce a vaccination certificate. Go into a 14 night or whatever Quarantine. Get another couple of tests before being released into society all at my own cost.
If 1500 or whatever the number was of Tennis people, Actors TV stars etc are allowed in why are close families being kept apart causing so much misery.
Sorry to rant on but wonder what the general opinion is regarding this.
..
My Son, Daughter and Grandchildren are all Australian citizens living in WA.
I have not seen them for over a year now. If the plan is to never have any cases even when the vaccine is rolled out, the borders will have to remain shut forever and I am unlikley to see them ever again.
I am not alone with this situation of course. No doubt it is causing a great deal of heartache for many other people as it is for my family and myself.
As it stands I am not a close enough relative as a parent to get an exception to enter Australia.
If one of them became terminally ill or died its "possible" that I would be allowed in. But we do not want that to happen of course.
I can understand the logic of wanting to keep the borders closed right now, The Australian Government and the State Premiers have done a very good job of Protecting Australian citizens from the virus,
However even with vaccines there will be cases but much less in numbers than without the vaccine. Severe illness and deaths will also be significantly be reduced.
The vaccine should help control Covid while letting society return to normal rather like the seasonal Flu is controlled with a modified vaccine to cope with variants each year. So where is this policy of total elimination going. Is there ever going to be a way out.
Surely the time must come when citizens with overseas close relatives in my case a parent can once again come to Australia to see there family.
Personally I would be happy to Take a covid test before departure to Australia, Produce a vaccination certificate. Go into a 14 night or whatever Quarantine. Get another couple of tests before being released into society all at my own cost.
If 1500 or whatever the number was of Tennis people, Actors TV stars etc are allowed in why are close families being kept apart causing so much misery.
Sorry to rant on but wonder what the general opinion is regarding this.
..
I have not seen them for over a year now. If the plan is to never have any cases even when the vaccine is rolled out, the borders will have to remain shut forever and I am unlikley to see them ever again.
I am not alone with this situation of course. No doubt it is causing a great deal of heartache for many other people as it is for my family and myself.
As it stands I am not a close enough relative as a parent to get an exception to enter Australia.
If one of them became terminally ill or died its "possible" that I would be allowed in. But we do not want that to happen of course.
I can understand the logic of wanting to keep the borders closed right now, The Australian Government and the State Premiers have done a very good job of Protecting Australian citizens from the virus,
However even with vaccines there will be cases but much less in numbers than without the vaccine. Severe illness and deaths will also be significantly be reduced.
The vaccine should help control Covid while letting society return to normal rather like the seasonal Flu is controlled with a modified vaccine to cope with variants each year. So where is this policy of total elimination going. Is there ever going to be a way out.
Surely the time must come when citizens with overseas close relatives in my case a parent can once again come to Australia to see there family.
Personally I would be happy to Take a covid test before departure to Australia, Produce a vaccination certificate. Go into a 14 night or whatever Quarantine. Get another couple of tests before being released into society all at my own cost.
If 1500 or whatever the number was of Tennis people, Actors TV stars etc are allowed in why are close families being kept apart causing so much misery.
Sorry to rant on but wonder what the general opinion is regarding this.
..
You would need to ask ScoMo about that.
But, two genuine questions
a) did you have any intention of visiting Australia in this last year or within the next 12 months or of your family doing the reverse trip in that period?
b) how often would you do so - COVID notwithstanding.
So we just need to adapt and make the most of the technology that we have these days.
Plus enjoy having the time and money to appreciate this beautiful country we live in.
You have absolutely no place in this country, let alone society. I don't want anybody new in my backyard, let alone my country.
I think Daniel Andrews is the consumate politician, he always tells me the truth, tells it to me straight. Both he and VicPol are on the same page and that's what you want, the police in the back pocket of the ruling party.
Annie up in Queensland, she's keeping me safe, when the virus was running rampant in QLD, the hospitals were over run, all ventilators used, she ensured that queensland hospitals were for queenslanders only. We have a saying up in queensland 'we're all in this together' and when those hospitals were secured for us, we proved that all us queenslanders were indeed all in it together. NSW was good enough to let the overflow into the tweed hospital, even though we told them to eff off when they wanted to come up to gods country hospitals.
That Western Australian bloke, how good is he? Mr 80% he's keeping me safe, and everybody else in Australia, quick with advice to every other state that they too can eliminate the virus, well, except NSW if his advice to funnel every returning Australian through Sydney airport and hotels is to be followed. Bloody NSW taking all the flotsam and jetsam. What a hole, they all walk around the streets like there's no bloody cases, it's irresponsible and just damn dangerous, next thing you know they'll be letting friggin' kiwis in, FFS.
Don't start me on that bloody dangerous and irresponsible state, NSW, not keeping anybody bloody safe, what a bloody fool the premier is, not keeping anybody safe.
When you look at who's gotten us through all the hard times in this country, throughout history, it's our precious boomers, god love em. Can we just listen to them when they say 'I'm scared, I'm petrified' 'Annie told me I'd be dead within days if I didn't vote her back in' 'Dan told me I'd be dead within days, because the one case that caused lockdown was spreading at an unprecedented rate......to the two other people' 'Mark told me I'd be dead within days, while the one case they picked up was spreading at unprecedented rates to........no one'
I know who I trust and believe you fools.
I think Daniel Andrews is the consumate politician, he always tells me the truth, tells it to me straight. Both he and VicPol are on the same page and that's what you want, the police in the back pocket of the ruling party.
Annie up in Queensland, she's keeping me safe, when the virus was running rampant in QLD, the hospitals were over run, all ventilators used, she ensured that queensland hospitals were for queenslanders only. We have a saying up in queensland 'we're all in this together' and when those hospitals were secured for us, we proved that all us queenslanders were indeed all in it together. NSW was good enough to let the overflow into the tweed hospital, even though we told them to eff off when they wanted to come up to gods country hospitals.
That Western Australian bloke, how good is he? Mr 80% he's keeping me safe, and everybody else in Australia, quick with advice to every other state that they too can eliminate the virus, well, except NSW if his advice to funnel every returning Australian through Sydney airport and hotels is to be followed. Bloody NSW taking all the flotsam and jetsam. What a hole, they all walk around the streets like there's no bloody cases, it's irresponsible and just damn dangerous, next thing you know they'll be letting friggin' kiwis in, FFS.
Don't start me on that bloody dangerous and irresponsible state, NSW, not keeping anybody bloody safe, what a bloody fool the premier is, not keeping anybody safe.
When you look at who's gotten us through all the hard times in this country, throughout history, it's our precious boomers, god love em. Can we just listen to them when they say 'I'm scared, I'm petrified' 'Annie told me I'd be dead within days if I didn't vote her back in' 'Dan told me I'd be dead within days, because the one case that caused lockdown was spreading at an unprecedented rate......to the two other people' 'Mark told me I'd be dead within days, while the one case they picked up was spreading at unprecedented rates to........no one'
I know who I trust and believe you fools.
Had a great chuckle - thanks!
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At least one person here understands your satire!
Love your sense of humour!!
Had a great chuckle - thanks!
Had a great chuckle - thanks!
I admit to laughing at my own humour a little too much
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I'm seeing more of my UK family than ever. We have a regular Zoom catch up which is great fun. It's actually brought us all closer together and I haven't had to spend a fortune to drag myself across the world once a year then drive all over England in the rain to see them one at a time. Best of all I get to see my little great-niece regularly, something I missed with my niece and nephews.
So we just need to adapt and make the most of the technology that we have these days.
Plus enjoy having the time and money to appreciate this beautiful country we live in.
So we just need to adapt and make the most of the technology that we have these days.
Plus enjoy having the time and money to appreciate this beautiful country we live in.
If so there’s gonna be a lot of very unhappy Australians in the tourism and hospitality sectors.
Last edited by BA_Baracas; 24th Feb 2021 at 08:47. Reason: Grammar
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I have not seen them for over a year now. If the plan is to never have any cases even when the vaccine is rolled out, the borders will have to remain shut forever and I am unlikley to see them ever again.
But, what we'll do is make sure the people who've made this nation their new home can't see family and friends and not allow Australians with family overseas to see theirs, Haven't seen my daughter for 18 months now, add probably another year to that. Whomever asked the question, how many times did you see them prior to covid? I made 6 monthly trips to see her. Whomever you are that 'hasn't seen more of their family since covid started'........on zoom and skype? You're serious are you? Zoom satisfies your need to embrace your loved ones? That's a bit strange to me, sorry.
spy v spy: xenophobia, it stinks and is disgraceful.
Last edited by McLimit; 24th Feb 2021 at 09:21.
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That’s great, but are you happy to do that indefinitely? Because until Australia is willing to accept that if the doors are eventually opened there is no way of keeping the virus out, then that’s where you’re headed.
If so there’s gonna be a lot of very unhappy Australians in the tourism and hospitality sectors.
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Closing Credits of “Get Smart” Roll!
Boom Qld border shut tonight to NZ, they had 2 more high school kids in Auckland test positive who were in managed isolation. I’m expecting 2 more years of this crap, it will get better slowly but it will still be crap. International? I’m thinking late 2022 by the way these clowns are operating.
Boom Qld border shut tonight to NZ, they had 2 more high school kids in Auckland test positive who were in managed isolation. I’m expecting 2 more years of this crap, it will get better slowly but it will still be crap. International? I’m thinking late 2022 by the way these clowns are operating.
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I do not believe that there is any intention of the federal government to "lock the international borders forever".
You would need to ask ScoMo about that.
But, two genuine questions
a) did you have any intention of visiting Australia in this last year or within the next 12 months or of your family doing the reverse trip in that period?
b) how often would you do so - COVID notwithstanding.
You would need to ask ScoMo about that.
But, two genuine questions
a) did you have any intention of visiting Australia in this last year or within the next 12 months or of your family doing the reverse trip in that period?
b) how often would you do so - COVID notwithstanding.
I normally visit 3 times per year.
My next booking is towards the end of 21. Booked it as something to look forward to assuming the vaccine here and in Australia would make a difference by then, fingers crossed, but is unlikely to fly unless the authorities rethink the border situation.
Yes I did I was due to travel over on the day the borders closed. I was actually checked in and waiting for a taxi to the airport when I heard I could not travel. Since then I have been re booked on 4 subsequent flights at various dates. All eventually cancelled.
I normally visit 3 times per year.
My next booking is towards the end of 21. Booked it as something to look forward to assuming the vaccine here and in Australia would make a difference by then, fingers crossed, but is unlikely to fly unless the authorities rethink the border situation.
I normally visit 3 times per year.
My next booking is towards the end of 21. Booked it as something to look forward to assuming the vaccine here and in Australia would make a difference by then, fingers crossed, but is unlikely to fly unless the authorities rethink the border situation.
Once widespread vaccination has been achieved then I can't see any point maintaining a general lock on international borders.
But I can't imagine ScoMo just suddenly saying "OK, we're open again. Come on in" either.
I'm expecting a few provisos. Vaccination certificates, etc.
I wish you well.
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Closing Credits of “Get Smart” Roll!
Boom Qld border shut tonight to NZ, they had 2 more high school kids in Auckland test positive who were in managed isolation. I’m expecting 2 more years of this crap, it will get better slowly but it will still be crap. International? I’m thinking late 2022 by the way these clowns are operating.
Boom Qld border shut tonight to NZ, they had 2 more high school kids in Auckland test positive who were in managed isolation. I’m expecting 2 more years of this crap, it will get better slowly but it will still be crap. International? I’m thinking late 2022 by the way these clowns are operating.