Mt Erebus Disaster 40th Anniversary
"there is a group of victims that hardly anyone considers, namely, the AirNZ employees that Mahon labelled as perjurers. Most of them were immediately suspended when Mahon's report was released. The Police investigated, given that perjury is a serious criminal offence. They and their families were publicly flogged. Then they had to spend many thousands of dollars to clear their names, which they actually did. Unfortunately, the general public never seemed to take any notice of that." . Ampan, in an earlier thread.
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Megan I know you love to quote Reason's Swiss Cheese model; but as someone like myself who is regularly involved in incident analysis can I advise you the model is mercifully no longer as trendy as it once was, and Reason himself has said the model has been way over quoted. It's failings are it doesn't identify relevance differentials between the factors (slices of cheese) and also doesn't identify what was a "factor" and what was an "error". For example the weather over Ross Island was a factor in this disaster; but only became one because of the human factors surrounding it. It's important to make the distinction, because the reasons behind the errors are where the learning points lie.
I guess Erebus isn't the worst application of Reason's model I've ever seen; but it needs to remembered this was nothing more than a 1990's cute way of saying "adverse events are multifactorial".
Sorry for digression.
I guess Erebus isn't the worst application of Reason's model I've ever seen; but it needs to remembered this was nothing more than a 1990's cute way of saying "adverse events are multifactorial".
Sorry for digression.
Well, apparently Dr Paul Holmes diagnosed, "cancer of the sinus which travelled down to the gum"? Who knows? We only have his book to go on. But, you have decided that it was probably also in the brain. Bit of a stretch?
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I gave a warning, sadly some are very slow to learn......... 
It was NOT your opinion that cost you the 10 day 'holiday', you are entitled to your opinions, but the way you expressed that opinion.
It was NOT your opinion that cost you the 10 day 'holiday', you are entitled to your opinions, but the way you expressed that opinion.
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I was on standby for the fatal flight, and but for the grace of God Go I.
The Bull**** that has been written over this accident is basically unbelievable.
I distinctly remember an ALPA member stating that no ALPA member can be blamed for the accident.
It had to be the fault of the company management!
MSA for that route was 7500 ft, and to go below that was inviting a sever case of unrewarding folly.
Although there were some cowboy pilots who did duck down low and "Buzz Mc Murdo tower and got away with it.
Change one thing, be it time, personnel or circumstances and the accident may not have occurred.
Gulfairs.
The Bull**** that has been written over this accident is basically unbelievable.
I distinctly remember an ALPA member stating that no ALPA member can be blamed for the accident.
It had to be the fault of the company management!
MSA for that route was 7500 ft, and to go below that was inviting a sever case of unrewarding folly.
Although there were some cowboy pilots who did duck down low and "Buzz Mc Murdo tower and got away with it.
Change one thing, be it time, personnel or circumstances and the accident may not have occurred.
Gulfairs.
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Just to get the facts straight.
The route MSA was FL160, For descent below this there were four conditions that had to be met, none were. the minimum descent for any reason was 6,000ft, this was a mandatory requirement laid down by CAA before these flights could commence. The impact point was 1500ft, Yet according to Mahon the crew were blameless. The official accident report compiled by Accident Investigation professional only stated a probable cause, This probable cause was accepted by many with much experience in Aviation..
The route MSA was FL160, For descent below this there were four conditions that had to be met, none were. the minimum descent for any reason was 6,000ft, this was a mandatory requirement laid down by CAA before these flights could commence. The impact point was 1500ft, Yet according to Mahon the crew were blameless. The official accident report compiled by Accident Investigation professional only stated a probable cause, This probable cause was accepted by many with much experience in Aviation..
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I was on standby for the fatal flight, and but for the grace of God Go I.
The Bull**** that has been written over this accident is basically unbelievable.
I distinctly remember an ALPA member stating that no ALPA member can be blamed for the accident.
It had to be the fault of the company management!
The Bull**** that has been written over this accident is basically unbelievable.
I distinctly remember an ALPA member stating that no ALPA member can be blamed for the accident.
It had to be the fault of the company management!
Gordon Vette was also overheard telling Mahon "we've got to get Jim off!"
What's really sad is how effectively Mahon swallowed, and then communicated all the bull****.
Whispering "T" Jet
prospector says
"………….One point that has not been put forward is the fact that the airline could very well have only used two crews for all these flights."
Hindsight is a beautiful thing.
"…………the findings by the Aircraft Accident Inspector, Ron Chippendale is still the official finding, and has never been appealed"
You bet it was appealed. What do you think ignited the Mahon Inquiry and the incredible investigative work done by Captain Gordon Vette and NZAlpa? If not for that, yes, Chippendale's report may have remained the official finding and what a travesty of justice that would have been.
"………….One point that has not been put forward is the fact that the airline could very well have only used two crews for all these flights."
Hindsight is a beautiful thing.
"…………the findings by the Aircraft Accident Inspector, Ron Chippendale is still the official finding, and has never been appealed"
You bet it was appealed. What do you think ignited the Mahon Inquiry and the incredible investigative work done by Captain Gordon Vette and NZAlpa? If not for that, yes, Chippendale's report may have remained the official finding and what a travesty of justice that would have been.
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Yeah well that is heresay, sorry. Anyone can say or make up statements that are ‘allegedly’ true. Who is this ‘peer’? Why has he/she not mentioned this fact publicly? The evidence shows Vette to be a company man, towing the company line. But regardless, if that statement was true and he said that about Jim Collins, then why has it not been documented previously, or mentioned in any inquiry? Why haven’t the person’s who were on the receiving end of Vette’s so-called comment come forward publicly at any time since 1979 and raised that point? I think you are throwing around herring’s mate.
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Yeah well that is heresay, sorry. Anyone can say or make up statements that are ‘allegedly’ true. Who is this ‘peer’? Why has he/she not mentioned this fact publicly? The evidence shows Vette to be a company man, towing the company line. But regardless, if that statement was true and he said that about Jim Collins, then why has it not been documented previously, or mentioned in any inquiry? Why haven’t the person’s who were on the receiving end of Vette’s so-called comment come forward publicly at any time since 1979 and raised that point? I think you are throwing around herring’s mate.
Regardless, you're right - there's no way to prove such a statement was ever made but I have no personal reason to disbelieve it. In any case there's plenty of information available on public record to conclude Mahon was significantly off piste and the crew must at the very least share the responsibility for this accident.
Whispering "T" Jet
I'm with you Paragraph377 and anyway, as your leader correctly and succinctly states (along with all the other expert legal boffins involved in this accident):
"In particular, the Privy Council said, and I quote, “the Royal Commission Report convincingly clears Captain Collins and First Officer Cassin of any suggestion that negligence on their part had in any way contributed to the disaster. That is unchallenged.”
Those findings stood then, and they stand now. The pilots were not responsible for this tragedy, and I stand here today to state that again."
Prime Minister of New Zealand Jacinda Ardern. 28th November 2019.
Here ends the lesson......................................
"In particular, the Privy Council said, and I quote, “the Royal Commission Report convincingly clears Captain Collins and First Officer Cassin of any suggestion that negligence on their part had in any way contributed to the disaster. That is unchallenged.”
Those findings stood then, and they stand now. The pilots were not responsible for this tragedy, and I stand here today to state that again."
Prime Minister of New Zealand Jacinda Ardern. 28th November 2019.
Here ends the lesson......................................
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“as your leader correctly and succinctly states (along with all the other expert legal boffins involved in this accident)”
1. She isn’t my leader. She is just another smooth talking political fool..
2. I actually couldn’t give a crap what she says because she is a politician, and they all speak utter Tosh.
3. Legal Boffins said Capt. Collins was innocent. Again, I don’t give a crap what they say said either.
4. My ‘issue’ has never been about whether Capt.
Collins was or was not accountable for the accident. My issue was, regardless of who was at fault, the Muldoon Government and Morrie Davies lied, stole, hid and covered up facts, and acted corruptly and with malfeasance. That has and will remain my issue through this entire accident and subsequent 40 years. Capt. Collins, sadly, was one of several causal factors, but not the root cause. Dead men can’t speak for themselves, and it’s been a sham how he has been treated in absence of being able to either defend himself, admit to error, or explain other actions that we will never fully know.
1. She isn’t my leader. She is just another smooth talking political fool..
2. I actually couldn’t give a crap what she says because she is a politician, and they all speak utter Tosh.
3. Legal Boffins said Capt. Collins was innocent. Again, I don’t give a crap what they say said either.
4. My ‘issue’ has never been about whether Capt.
Collins was or was not accountable for the accident. My issue was, regardless of who was at fault, the Muldoon Government and Morrie Davies lied, stole, hid and covered up facts, and acted corruptly and with malfeasance. That has and will remain my issue through this entire accident and subsequent 40 years. Capt. Collins, sadly, was one of several causal factors, but not the root cause. Dead men can’t speak for themselves, and it’s been a sham how he has been treated in absence of being able to either defend himself, admit to error, or explain other actions that we will never fully know.
I'm with you Paragraph377 and anyway, as your leader correctly and succinctly states (along with all the other expert legal boffins involved in this accident):
"In particular, the Privy Council said, and I quote, “the Royal Commission Report convincingly clears Captain Collins and First Officer Cassin of any suggestion that negligence on their part had in any way contributed to the disaster. That is unchallenged.”
Those findings stood then, and they stand now. The pilots were not responsible for this tragedy, and I stand here today to state that again."
Prime Minister of New Zealand Jacinda Ardern. 28th November 2019.
Here ends the lesson......................................
"In particular, the Privy Council said, and I quote, “the Royal Commission Report convincingly clears Captain Collins and First Officer Cassin of any suggestion that negligence on their part had in any way contributed to the disaster. That is unchallenged.”
Those findings stood then, and they stand now. The pilots were not responsible for this tragedy, and I stand here today to state that again."
Prime Minister of New Zealand Jacinda Ardern. 28th November 2019.
Here ends the lesson......................................
Man Bilong Balus long PNG
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I know a lot of Australians would like to adopt Jacinda, like you did with Split Enz, Phar Lap and Pavlova to name a few. Please take her.
“as your leader correctly and succinctly states (along with all the other expert legal boffins involved in this accident)”
1. She isn’t my leader. She is just another smooth talking political fool..
2. I actually couldn’t give a crap what she says because she is a politician, and they all speak utter Tosh.
3. Legal Boffins said Capt. Collins was innocent. Again, I don’t give a crap what they say said either.
4. My ‘issue’ has never been about whether Capt.
Collins was or was not accountable for the accident. My issue was, regardless of who was at fault, the Muldoon Government and Morrie Davies lied, stole, hid and covered up facts, and acted corruptly and with malfeasance. That has and will remain my issue through this entire accident and subsequent 40 years. Capt. Collins, sadly, was one of several causal factors, but not the root cause. Dead men can’t speak for themselves, and it’s been a sham how he has been treated in absence of being able to either defend himself, admit to error, or explain other actions that we will never fully know.
1. She isn’t my leader. She is just another smooth talking political fool..
2. I actually couldn’t give a crap what she says because she is a politician, and they all speak utter Tosh.
3. Legal Boffins said Capt. Collins was innocent. Again, I don’t give a crap what they say said either.
4. My ‘issue’ has never been about whether Capt.
Collins was or was not accountable for the accident. My issue was, regardless of who was at fault, the Muldoon Government and Morrie Davies lied, stole, hid and covered up facts, and acted corruptly and with malfeasance. That has and will remain my issue through this entire accident and subsequent 40 years. Capt. Collins, sadly, was one of several causal factors, but not the root cause. Dead men can’t speak for themselves, and it’s been a sham how he has been treated in absence of being able to either defend himself, admit to error, or explain other actions that we will never fully know.