Mt Erebus Disaster 40th Anniversary
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: Santa Barbara
Posts: 912
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
About the level of observation we've come to expect. I said back at post #3 this thread was a bad idea. Of all the Erebus threads this has reached a new low, thanks to one poster with his bile, invectiveness and libellous statements (I read all the posts prior to deletion). I can't fathom how he has not been banned, this thread is beyond the pall, and the likes of it I've not seen on PPRuNe.
I'm not outraged by his posts, there's something going on there and if he gets taken for libel he deserves it.
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Rockytop, Tennessee, USA
Posts: 5,898
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
From Lieutenant Knock's recent interview posted earlier:
Knock recounts the scene on the Starlifter in the moments before the crash. "We called them [Flight 901], we got a hold of them and we were talking with them, saying 'how was it?' They said 'well we're here now and we're flying, but it's overcast over the area'. So our guys go: 'Where are you located?' They gave me a position which I plotted and they said they were descending to 5000 feet. Which made my heart stop, because I stopped and I went 'they're pretty close to Erebus.' I said 'call them back, call them back now'. What I realised, they were headed straight for the mountain, going down. I said 'they're headed towards the mountain and they're descending. There's no way they're going to make it'.
Last edited by Airbubba; 28th Nov 2019 at 21:35.
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Rockytop, Tennessee, USA
Posts: 5,898
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
Join Date: Mar 2018
Location: Currently: A landlocked country with high terrain, otherwise Melbourne, Australia + Washington D.C.
Posts: 396
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
No-one flew over Erebus.
The nav track was an aid, not a railway line
The good thing is, you'll find yourself flying VFR for a little while after this.
It made perfect sense to put the waypoint right behind the big mountain,visible from many miles away, on a fine day.
There's just no way that you can use Perfect, sense, big, mountain, visible, and on a fine day in any combination and make an English sentence that is even remotely appropriate on this thread.
Last edited by Okihara; 28th Nov 2019 at 17:57.
Join Date: Mar 2018
Location: Currently: A landlocked country with high terrain, otherwise Melbourne, Australia + Washington D.C.
Posts: 396
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Okay ampan, I also don't mind 60 year olds who pretend to know better. Some are right, others dead wrong.
However, I will admit it, you have a point. You certainly might have a weird way to express it in my view, but I'll agree to this much with you: the captain can't be entirely exonerated. He should have been 100% certain of his position before descending below LSALT. Here's a passage found on another forum that made me think that this is what you are trying to say:
(https://www.erebus.co.nz/Guestbook/F...05/scope/posts)
That being said, let's not forget that mistakes made by the airline by not communicating the change of coordinates were probably a compounding factor here. It's hard if not impossible to ascertain what chain of thoughts Collins had. I still find it hard to imagine that Collins wouldn't have assumed that he was doing his 8 figure over the sound based on the initial waypoints and the radar assist that he was offered. None of this, however, exonerates him from establishing his actual position with 100% certitude before descending below MSA.
However, I will admit it, you have a point. You certainly might have a weird way to express it in my view, but I'll agree to this much with you: the captain can't be entirely exonerated. He should have been 100% certain of his position before descending below LSALT. Here's a passage found on another forum that made me think that this is what you are trying to say:
This pilot knew that he would not be visual below the cloud layer. He knew he could only go below MSA on instruments and he knew that the INS was not sufficient. He did not, at the time of his cloud/ice comment, know about the available ground radar facilities, so on receipt of the weather report, he correctly decided to bail out and go somewhere else.The fact that the captain knew he would not be visual below the cloud layer is confirmed by what happened shortly after he decided to go elsewhere, when he was offered a radar-assisted descent. From the captain’s perspective, this changed everything, because he could have his position confirmed before going below MSA. On receipt of the offer, the captain gratefully accepts it and then announces the plan to the passengers. If the captain believed that he would be visual below the cloud layer, the radar would have made no difference, because he could have gone below MSA with or without it. Ten minutes later, without any discussion with the rest of the crew, the captain dived down below MSA through a hole in the cloud layer on the basis that he was visual. He effectively decided to ignore his own warning and that decision has to be the primary cause of the accident. His decision to fly visually when he knew he couldn't see properly was not caused by any mistake made by the navigation section or any inadequecies in the briefing. It was caused by a very bad error that bordered on reckless.
That being said, let's not forget that mistakes made by the airline by not communicating the change of coordinates were probably a compounding factor here. It's hard if not impossible to ascertain what chain of thoughts Collins had. I still find it hard to imagine that Collins wouldn't have assumed that he was doing his 8 figure over the sound based on the initial waypoints and the radar assist that he was offered. None of this, however, exonerates him from establishing his actual position with 100% certitude before descending below MSA.
Last edited by Okihara; 28th Nov 2019 at 19:22.
Whispering "T" Jet
......................the captain can't be entirely exonerated.
He was and that finding is now etched in stone. A indisputable fact that can be debated ad infinitum but it will make no difference.
He was and that finding is now etched in stone. A indisputable fact that can be debated ad infinitum but it will make no difference.
Join Date: Nov 2019
Location: Paraparaumu
Posts: 0
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
" Before the 28 November flight the McMurdo NDB was officially withdrawn. Although still operating, it was no longer being maintained and so its accuracy could not be guaranteed. The nearby TACAN was used instead. This was referred to in Company memorandum to AntArctic crews, OAA:14/13/28 dated 8 November 1979. Headed MCMURDO NDB NOT AVAILABLE, it was succinct and unambiguous
Deletev all reference in briefing dated 23/10/79. Note the only let down procedure available is VMC below FL160 to 6,000ft as follows.
1. Vis 20 km plus
2. No snow shower in area.
3. Avoid Mt Erebus area by operating in an arc from 120 grid through 360 grid to 270 grid from McMurdo field, within 20 nm of TACAN CH29.
4. Descent to be coordinated with local radar control as they may have other traffic in area.
A copy of this memorandum was recovered from the cockpit wreckage, so there was no way the crew were not aware of it."
Deletev all reference in briefing dated 23/10/79. Note the only let down procedure available is VMC below FL160 to 6,000ft as follows.
1. Vis 20 km plus
2. No snow shower in area.
3. Avoid Mt Erebus area by operating in an arc from 120 grid through 360 grid to 270 grid from McMurdo field, within 20 nm of TACAN CH29.
4. Descent to be coordinated with local radar control as they may have other traffic in area.
A copy of this memorandum was recovered from the cockpit wreckage, so there was no way the crew were not aware of it."
The nav track was an aid, not a railway line
The briefing gave details of the instrument flight rules (IFR) route to McMurdo which passed almost directly over Mt Erebus, a 12450 ft high active volcano, some 20 nm prior to the most southerly turning point, Williams Field.
He knew he could only go below MSA on instruments
Note that the only letdown procedure available is VMC below FL160 to 6000’ as follows:
1. Vis 20 km plus.
2. No snow shower in area.
3. Avoid MT EREBUS area by operating in an arc from 120° Grid through 360G to 270G from McMurdo Field, within 20 nm of TACAN CH29.
4. Descent to be co-ordinated with local radar control as they may have other traffic in the area.”
1. Vis 20 km plus.
2. No snow shower in area.
3. Avoid MT EREBUS area by operating in an arc from 120° Grid through 360G to 270G from McMurdo Field, within 20 nm of TACAN CH29.
4. Descent to be co-ordinated with local radar control as they may have other traffic in the area.”
Last edited by megan; 29th Nov 2019 at 00:02.
Whispering "T" Jet
Too much wine over lunch.
......................the captain can't be entirely exonerated.
He was and that finding is now etched in stone. A indisputable fact that can be debated ad infinitum but it will make no difference.
Who was OJ Simpson?
......................the captain can't be entirely exonerated.
He was and that finding is now etched in stone. A indisputable fact that can be debated ad infinitum but it will make no difference.
Who was OJ Simpson?
There's so much compressed stupidity in this sentence. How, just how can it make "perfect sense" to put a waypoint behind a "big mountain" on the premise that it would be "visible from many miles away, on a fine day"? I mean that quite seriously. What's your answer when the day is not so fine after all and that you have a waypoint taking you straight over a mountain 12,500' while you have a sound at sea level just a few miles west?
The only thing indisputable is that the aircraft hit Mt Erebus. I very much doubt any professional pilot would think the Captain did not contribute to the cause of the accident. Blame is not a word I believe should be used in the context of accidents - professional pilots know this. There are causes and contributing factors which combine to lead to an event. To say the captain is not part of that puzzle is presumptuous and highly disputable. But yes, in the Mahon inquiry, he was exonerated.
Whispering "T" Jet
Not only the Mahon inquiry. The Privy Council, Air New Zealand and the New Zealand government all, finally, conceded pilot error was NOT a factor in this Accident.
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Rockytop, Tennessee, USA
Posts: 5,898
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
But I have a more pressing matter: Before lunch I was looking at one of those podcast things and watched two cops with the surnames Gilpin and Leighton referring to the small black ring binder. They had seen the ring binder while working on the body recovery and they were sure there were pages in it containing technical information. When the ring binder was produced a the hearing, the pages were missing. Both the policeman were concerned. Eventually, this causde one or both of them to contact Mahon directly.
Then, a letter from Mahon appeared on the screen of my laptop. The letter tells the two cops, very unequivocally, that the missing pages would have contained the co-ordinates of the waypoint given to the pilots at the briefing, begin a subject that had been just debated on this thread.
When I looked for the letter again after lunch, all reference to it had disappeared from the world wide web.
Was I seeing things? Or did someone else see the letter too?
Then, a letter from Mahon appeared on the screen of my laptop. The letter tells the two cops, very unequivocally, that the missing pages would have contained the co-ordinates of the waypoint given to the pilots at the briefing, begin a subject that had been just debated on this thread.
When I looked for the letter again after lunch, all reference to it had disappeared from the world wide web.
Was I seeing things? Or did someone else see the letter too?
Here's Judge Mahon's discussion of the notebooks in his 1981 report:
Join Date: Jul 2019
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 12
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
People, isn't time you all let go? It's been 40 years, whatever the causes, they're all gone. Nothing can justify the amount of energy some of you here are putting into debating this subject.
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Rockytop, Tennessee, USA
Posts: 5,898
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
Here are accounts of the recovery of Captain Collins' ring binder from Inspectors Gilpin and Leighton posted on a pilots' union website:
https://www.erebus.co.nz/The-Accident/The-Recovery-Operation/Inspector-Gilpins-Account
https://www.erebus.co.nz/The-Accident/The-Recovery-Operation/Inspector-Leightons-Account
What has really troubled me over the years though as a police officer, is the issue of pilot, Captain Jim Collins’, ring binder notebook which was located amongst the wreckage and handed to me on the site. It was intact and contained numerous pages of legible technical writing and figures that indicated they related to the flying of aircraft. We recognised that this could be of importance to any investigation into the crash, and I sealed and secured it in a bag before it was returned to McMurdo.
The ring binder was later produced in 1981 at the Commission of Inquiry into the disaster in an altered condition to how it was found, in that the pages were missing. It had earlier been returned to Mrs Collin's in this condition by an airline official. The reason why and how the pages came to be missing has never been satisfactorily explained or resolved.
G J Gilpin M.N.Z.M
Inspector, NZ Police
Wellington
The ring binder was later produced in 1981 at the Commission of Inquiry into the disaster in an altered condition to how it was found, in that the pages were missing. It had earlier been returned to Mrs Collin's in this condition by an airline official. The reason why and how the pages came to be missing has never been satisfactorily explained or resolved.
G J Gilpin M.N.Z.M
Inspector, NZ Police
Wellington
https://www.erebus.co.nz/The-Accident/The-Recovery-Operation/Inspector-Gilpins-Account
I found Captain Collins ring binder diary which I read. It contained what appeared to me to be handwritten briefing notes so I handed it to Sergeant Gilpin. It was later produced empty at the enquiry. It has never been adequately explained to me how this happened.
Inspector Stuart Leighton
NZ Police
Inspector Stuart Leighton
NZ Police
https://www.erebus.co.nz/The-Accident/The-Recovery-Operation/Inspector-Leightons-Account
A lot of people find this subject very interesting, even 40+ years on. There will always be different views and sides to a never ending discussion. The best thing for you and others who want the threads closed, is to not click on the subject header in the first place and leave the thread to those who find it, and the points of views expressed, well worth reading.
The best thing for you and others who want the threads closed, is to not click on the subject header in the first place
I haven't read anywhere that Justice Mahon had brain cancer, where did you get this information? He "suffered a mild heart attack in 1975. By the early 1980s he was displaying the early symptoms of the cardiomyopathy which would eventually kill him."
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: Santa Barbara
Posts: 912
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The best thing for you and others who want the threads closed, is to not click on the subject header in the first place and leave the thread to those who find it, and the points of views expressed, well worth reading.