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Mt Cook and Air Nelson contract

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Mt Cook and Air Nelson contract

Old 19th Sep 2019, 20:34
  #41 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by captsf View Post
the discussion in link flightdecks in the early stages of pathways about PG’s and original DOJ spooked us. (They only have themselves to blame).
Rest assured that was a select group of muppets and definitely not the general view from the 'link flightdecks'
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Old 24th Sep 2019, 04:35
  #42 (permalink)  
 
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Oh here we go... the Mount Cook pilots are moaning that Air Nelson gets a higher percentage payrise, and yet still end up getting paid less than the Mount Cook pilots?
That absolutely perfectly summarises every Kiwi in aviation .. "But but.... I get this, no one else should be looked after.."
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Old 24th Sep 2019, 09:23
  #43 (permalink)  
 
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Unfortunately the Q300 is a smaller aircraft that doesn’t make the company as much money, simple economics, been that way since it all began

Last edited by go123; 24th Sep 2019 at 10:08.
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Old 2nd Oct 2019, 07:01
  #44 (permalink)  
 
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Can’t have been too many pilots “seething”. Ratified unanimously.
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Old 2nd Oct 2019, 23:31
  #45 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by KiwiAvi8er View Post
Can’t have been too many pilots “seething”. Ratified unanimously.
Perhaps their regional union council put out a memo to tell them how to vote....
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Old 2nd Oct 2019, 23:56
  #46 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by RubberDogPoop View Post
Perhaps their regional union council put out a memo to tell them how to vote....
They sent out an email telling people to vote, that’s correct. They also emphasised their view and what’s at stake, what’s your problem with that?
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Old 3rd Oct 2019, 00:25
  #47 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by KiwiAvi8er View Post
Can’t have been too many pilots “seething”. Ratified unanimously.

Poor choice of words. Unanimoulsy would imply there was no opposition. There was plenty of that. They haven't even released the percentage regarding for/against yet. Didn't meet anyone who was seething, just those with a moral objection to it.
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Old 3rd Oct 2019, 01:15
  #48 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by KiwiAvi8er View Post


They sent out an email telling people to vote, that’s correct. They also emphasised their view and what’s at stake, what’s your problem with that?
Wow! That didn't take long!
It's just the last time they did that, they misrepresented the majority - that's my "problem" with that.
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Old 3rd Oct 2019, 08:16
  #49 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by RubberDogPoop View Post
Wow! That didn't take long!
It's just the last time they did that, they misrepresented the majority - that's my "problem" with that.
This email was from an admin head, so fairly hard to misrepresent the majority unless he’s schizophrenic.
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Old 7th Oct 2019, 08:02
  #50 (permalink)  
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I can tell you there are a bunch of pissed off off ‘no’ voters who are surprised that the ratification was passed off as an ‘overwhelming’ majority when there are at least 50+ or so who voted no and are considering legal action to get the results-which ALPA seem very hesitant to release-published. Why the hesitancy when they were happy to publish them last time?
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Old 7th Oct 2019, 19:32
  #51 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by clemfandango View Post
I can tell you there are a bunch of pissed off off ‘no’ voters who are surprised that the ratification was passed off as an ‘overwhelming’ majority when there are at least 50+ or so who voted no and are considering legal action to get the results-which ALPA seem very hesitant to release-published. Why the hesitancy when they were happy to publish them last time?
It likely has to do with keeping those results from the company.

Besides, I believe nearly 100% of Link Pilots voted which is almost unheard of. 50+ “Pissed off no voters” out of 600 odd would suggest 80-90% voted yes.
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Old 8th Oct 2019, 03:21
  #52 (permalink)  
 
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Kiwiavi8or

Although not within our ATC scope, the firmly held opinion of the majority of Air New Zealand group pilot members is that their important philosophy of one employer, one AirNZ and Regional Reintegration
He represents the majority of link perhaps (though one could narrow that down to an oligarchy at the top of the seniority list), he significantly misrepresented the “Jet” view, and given;

Our Union has never been made up solely of Air NZ Jet pilots; in fact, of the 3000 members that make up NZALPA, the majority are from other airlines, ATC, Flight Service and GA operators. Fair, transparent and unbiased leadership which considers all member interests needs to be at the forefront of strategic Union direction.
(my bolding).

he neither represented the best interests of ALPA pilots as a whole, nor the other affected party - the much maligned, evil “Jet” group. If the 1000 or so “Jet” pilots don’t represent the majority interest, ergo the 600 link pilots equally are not the MAJORITY.

I’ll say it again for clarity, the “Jet” group did not hold a firm view that “one employer” meant “jobs for the boys”, without interview. If you’re uncomfortable with a sim as part of the job interview, then you’re going to have a rough time every six months for the rest of your career at AirNZ. 70/30 achieved the “loyalty” aim without upending the entire culture of a fair go for all - even those heathens who had the temerity to get employed by Jetstar/Jet Connect/Virgin/RNZAF when (probably) Link weren’t hiring. Such is the nebulous nature of “group loyalty”.

Put your hand on your heart and tell me you’re happy (as a probable youngster) with what your brethren have done for you?
Now you’re all baling from the RHS and staring down the barrel of low pay cadets into said seat.

(Sincere apologies for mission creep/thread drift!)
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Old 8th Oct 2019, 09:26
  #53 (permalink)  
 
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Slight thread drift but FYI. John Whittaker has stated directly to unions he doesn’t want a GOP list now. Having a jet and regional list gives him his get out of jail card (his words) when future expansion requirements exceeds the ability to take pilots from the link airline. Unions agreed.
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Old 8th Oct 2019, 10:21
  #54 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by clemfandango View Post
I can tell you there are a bunch of pissed off off ‘no’ voters who are surprised that the ratification was passed off as an ‘overwhelming’ majority when there are at least 50+ or so who voted no and are considering legal action to get the results-which ALPA seem very hesitant to release-published. Why the hesitancy when they were happy to publish them last time?
Even if there were 50 pilots who are all telling each other they voted no (what they tell their mates vs how they vote isn’t necessarily the same), with 325 pilots on the ATR that’s around 15% voting no. 85% yes is an overwhelming majority.

Getting legal action?? Give me a break, the results will come out in the wash up anyway. Even if it was 67% for ratification, what changes?
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Old 8th Oct 2019, 10:51
  #55 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by RubberDogPoop View Post
Kiwiavi8or



He represents the majority of link perhaps (though one could narrow that down to an oligarchy at the top of the seniority list), he significantly misrepresented the “Jet” view, and given;

(my bolding).

he neither represented the best interests of ALPA pilots as a whole, nor the other affected party - the much maligned, evil “Jet” group. If the 1000 or so “Jet” pilots don’t represent the majority interest, ergo the 600 link pilots equally are not the MAJORITY.

I’ll say it again for clarity, the “Jet” group did not hold a firm view that “one employer” meant “jobs for the boys”, without interview. If you’re uncomfortable with a sim as part of the job interview, then you’re going to have a rough time every six months for the rest of your career at AirNZ. 70/30 achieved the “loyalty” aim without upending the entire culture of a fair go for all - even those heathens who had the temerity to get employed by Jetstar/Jet Connect/Virgin/RNZAF when (probably) Link weren’t hiring. Such is the nebulous nature of “group loyalty”.

Put your hand on your heart and tell me you’re happy (as a probable youngster) with what your brethren have done for you?
Now you’re all baling from the RHS and staring down the barrel of low pay cadets into said seat.

(Sincere apologies for mission creep/thread drift!)
So it’s the ALPA president who has ruffled your feathers? Fair enough. He didn’t send out the email “telling us how to vote”. Mt Cook/Air Nelson councils exist for their specific membership, they can put out messages as they see fit.

On to the sim ride, having a six monthly sim isn’t specific to Air NZ Pilots!! So that’s not the issue, but as I mentioned earlier the old guard who have never carried out an assessment/interview or sim are already in your ranks.

Have I been negatively affected by the changes to jet recruitment going back to the top of the RSL, yep, lots of us have. There’s always people affected by any decision along those lines. I’m happy with the direction the Links are going in though and can see the bigger picture.
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Old 8th Oct 2019, 20:01
  #56 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by KiwiAvi8er View Post


So it’s the ALPA president who has ruffled your feathers? Fair enough. He didn’t send out the email “telling us how to vote”. Mt Cook/Air Nelson councils exist for their specific membership, they can put out messages as they see fit.

On to the sim ride, having a six monthly sim isn’t specific to Air NZ Pilots!! So that’s not the issue, but as I mentioned earlier the old guard who have never carried out an assessment/interview or sim are already in your ranks.

Have I been negatively affected by the changes to jet recruitment going back to the top of the RSL, yep, lots of us have. There’s always people affected by any decision along those lines. I’m happy with the direction the Links are going in though and can see the bigger picture.
The bigger picture is zero progression for years, and the company glossing over a major fopaux with the RSL which all the entitled link pilots who had done two minutes in the company wanted for "progression" all they've done is killed that for the guys and gals who actually deserve it and opened the door to non motivated geriatrics who can't even pass a type rating. As soon as the music starts again externals will flood in as per the norm, the company has zero loyalty to it's link ranks no matter how many flashy initiatives they wave in your face.
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Old 8th Oct 2019, 23:49
  #57 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Kittykat2704 View Post
The bigger picture is zero progression for years, and the company glossing over a major fopaux with the RSL which all the entitled link pilots who had done two minutes in the company wanted for "progression" all they've done is killed that for the guys and gals who actually deserve it and opened the door to non motivated geriatrics who can't even pass a type rating. As soon as the music starts again externals will flood in as per the norm, the company has zero loyalty to it's link ranks no matter how many flashy initiatives they wave in your face.
Nope the bigger picture is employment with Air NZ so there won’t be another Eagle debacle. Job security is more important to the people actually affected by it so I can see why you don’t think it matters.

If the company has zero loyalty to Links yet have just taken on direct employment of them please explain how we were better off the ‘old way’? Getting Jet seniority at a ratio of 80:20 to externals seems better than “externals flooding in as per the norm” and not getting seniority.
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Old 9th Oct 2019, 02:08
  #58 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by KiwiAvi8er View Post


Nope the bigger picture is employment with Air NZ so there won’t be another Eagle debacle. Job security is more important to the people actually affected by it so I can see why you don’t think it matters.

If the company has zero loyalty to Links yet have just taken on direct employment of them please explain how we were better off the ‘old way’? Getting Jet seniority at a ratio of 80:20 to externals seems better than “externals flooding in as per the norm” and not getting seniority.
In 6 years at Air NZ, I’ve averaged about 20 slots per year on seniority. Even at 80:20, how long will it take number 600 on the RSL to see a Jet?

Lets not beat around the bush, the “Job security” was sold on the back of Eagle by a bunch of Senior Link Pilots to the juniors who didn’t know any better. Most (if not every) recently hired Link Pilots I’ve flown with have admitted they dodged a massive bullet getting hired before RSL came into effect... now that they’ve done the math.

Before externals were hired in droves, Link pilots had their turn, amazing how quickly people forget that... when Link Pilots we’re getting interviews as soon as their bonds were up. Some with as little as 6 months Command time.... others with none!

Just wait until the next expansion (Jet or Link)... we’ll see just how much loyalty is worth when the company is faced with parking aircraft.

A group of tired Link Pilots who can’t pass a jet type rating and require “stress leave on MBF” got their cake, so who cares about the next generations aye?
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Old 9th Oct 2019, 02:32
  #59 (permalink)  
 
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So it's the ALPA President that ruffled your feathers?
Nope, it was the regional admin head who said that the majority of the GROUP were onside with the concept, and pitched that as a fait-accompli to the ATC-ers. They should not be allowed to put out untruths to an unaffected group within the union, who will have no idea, nor care of the impact. ATC as part of the Airline PILOTS Association is an anathema, I understand why it is in a small country like ours but they effectively become a bloc to lobby so that
We see no room for factional, orchestrated personal agendas
can be advanced.

There won't be another Eagle debacle given you have a RSL - just another "make-weight." #RSL=jobsecurity

On to the sim ride, having a six monthly sim isn’t specific to Air NZ Pilots!! So that’s not the issue
only that it was, "why should i have to do a sim" as part of the interview was the common refrain? "I'm entitled"...

the old guard who have never carried out an assessment/interview or sim are already in your ranks.
Yep, they flew planes that landed on water and got shot at during Vietnam. Relevance? That was then, this is now. Name another job anywhere in the world where you get a job without an interview? Oh, but the Air Force and ex-Cathay Captains should still do them aye?

How would you better off the "old way"? Well you would not be waiting 10 years for a turboprop command, unable to progress to the AirNZ job you covet so much as you sit in the RHS (or barely into the LHS) while those above you put in an EOI just because "it's the way the game's played", with no real motivation to upsticks and move, nor do an Airbus rating. It's likely you would also make a better fist of the process and not put a massive target on everybody behind you...If you were motivated, not entitled and passed the interview I guarantee you, you would be in sooner than you now will. But have it your way, I'm sure the company isn't 4 steps ahead of you, that cadets into your operation won't put downward pressure on your COS, that in a bust cycle the company won't require a "re"-interview of those waiting 3,4,5 years, and in a boom cycle they'll absolutely detrimentally decimate their own domestic operation in order to keep those disloyal "externals" out and take all of you forthwith.....
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Old 9th Oct 2019, 04:27
  #60 (permalink)  
 
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It's always good to see this debate start after the votes happened
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