Project Sunrise
The statement was made that a letter will be provided to confirm Qantas pilots operating under EA10 will fly the first 12 A350's - a subtle but significant difference and a very long way from a scope clause.
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We have been backed into a corner on these negotiations. I am actually surprised how good the deal is considering.
Vote YES.
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Let's hope AIPA come into those negotiations a little more prepared next time. They have 3 years to come up with a trump card.
Capital can prepare it's entire game plan in complete secrecy, having considered every path along the decision tree & prepared every contingency before releasing its plan. The fAIR Work Act essentially limits any variability and removes the unforeseen options available to employee. Think of it as a chess games where capital is always white and therefore gets to go first, every new round of the game. Furthering the chess analogy, there is ZERO luck in a Chess game beyond who makes the first move, compared to say poker, where there is always an element of uncertainty in every hand. No player has a consistent advantage over many games, except in the case of genuine skill.
The IR system and the FWA has removed uncertainty for business over the last 30 years, enabling them to control labour, a new Capital Feudalism. Employee relations are now a set piece game, a settled science and employees will be grateful for what they are given at the whim of the employer. The gig economy is the ultimate embodiment of this system of total insecurity, where every shift may be your last.
I can predict with great certainty, the next negotiations will involve a significant delay beyond the expiry date , therefore the implied loss of backpay / involuntary pay freeze, a last minute "deadline", a crisis and finally here is a document we prepared earlier, sign here. All totally predictable, contrived and designed to give you the illusion of some control of the process. They then always come back and say, but you voted for it, this is a voluntary agreement! Just as in the former Soviet block there was only one name on the ballot paper, but you were free to vote. These people know exactly what they are doing.
If you don't like it, your only real option is to maximise your skills and value on the market, take the training and move somewhere else when opportunities present themselves.
As for the industrial law yes it is heavily biased in favour of the employer. There is zero chance it’ll be changed by a No vote, or a PR or PIA campaign.
CurtainTwitcher, good post!
With the recent grounding of 8 A380 aircraft, the number of Qantas aircraft now grounded has grown to 32(?).
What are the odds on Qantas actually ordering new aircraft, especially A350s for Sunrise? Long thin routes like Sunrise only work on the thinnest of margins. In the present environment Qantas is trying to preserve capital by grounding aircraft, not buying more.
With no A350s on order by Qantas for some indefinite time to come, that event would seem to make a YES vote completely redundant, would it not?
I say again, what are the odds?
With the recent grounding of 8 A380 aircraft, the number of Qantas aircraft now grounded has grown to 32(?).
What are the odds on Qantas actually ordering new aircraft, especially A350s for Sunrise? Long thin routes like Sunrise only work on the thinnest of margins. In the present environment Qantas is trying to preserve capital by grounding aircraft, not buying more.
With no A350s on order by Qantas for some indefinite time to come, that event would seem to make a YES vote completely redundant, would it not?
I say again, what are the odds?
With the recent grounding of 8 A380 aircraft, the number of Qantas aircraft now grounded has grown to 32(?).
What are the odds on Qantas actually ordering new aircraft, especially A350s for Sunrise? Long thin routes like Sunrise only work on the thinnest of margins. In the present environment Qantas is trying to preserve capital by grounding aircraft, not buying more.
With no A350s on order by Qantas for some indefinite time to come, that event would seem to make a YES vote completely redundant, would it not?
I say again, what are the odds?
What are the odds on Qantas actually ordering new aircraft, especially A350s for Sunrise? Long thin routes like Sunrise only work on the thinnest of margins. In the present environment Qantas is trying to preserve capital by grounding aircraft, not buying more.
With no A350s on order by Qantas for some indefinite time to come, that event would seem to make a YES vote completely redundant, would it not?
I say again, what are the odds?
As far as the profitability of long thin routes go PER-LHR is one of the most profitable for QF. It’s definitely more profitable than the 380 to LHR as has been seen with this announcement.
Also take note how it’s the 380 that was the first to be grounded when times turned bad. You don’t think they would rather have more efficient twin engine aircraft replacing them? I reckon this virus will ensure the demise of the 380 far more quickly than anyone would’ve anticipated.
The only things confirmed by management are a Yes vote will ensure any 350’s ordered are flown by mainline pilots under the LH EBA. As well as a 3% payrise and backpay for existing pilots which is solid gold in the current economic climate.
And if the initial vote is No the 350s will only be flown by an external contractor and there is no guarantee that mainline pilots will be allowed into that external contractor.
Last edited by dr dre; 12th Mar 2020 at 01:47.
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I'm also excited for it as a pilot (as long as I can hold up for the next 30-odd years...). Flying more planes to more places means more opportunity for us, and more of us. Qantas will need to hire a stack more pilots if it wants to take full advantage and open more ULH routes.
Maybe that doesn't come to pass, but if the business model works (which it has with PER-LHR), Qantas has every incentive to fly more.
QF shares have halved in value since 01/01/20. I cannot see anything happening with the A350 order for sometime. Excess a/c and staff will be the topic of the next board meeting.
plainmaker: Australia Asia Airlines was set up so services to Taiwan would not offend China. The IATA code for the entity was IM, the ICAO code was AAU, the call sign was Austasia. For all intentional purposes it was a new airline with both a B747SP and a B763. KLM did something similar with KLM Asia as a Taiwan registered subsidiary of KLM Royal Dutch Airlines.
As far a slots are concerned at LHR you can do what you like. I would be surprised if you were not aware QF has leased a pair of slots to BA.
As far a slots are concerned at LHR you can do what you like. I would be surprised if you were not aware QF has leased a pair of slots to BA.
Too much to catch up on
This is truth:
Don’t vote to yet again put pilots feet in mouth!
AJ is an incompetent businessman, has zero vision and hates ‘risking’ money - unless he is risking someone else’s for HIS personal benefit - that’s different, obviously.
it would be completely out of character for him to risk a single cent right now and equally as out of character to not play this crisis for all its worth with Airbus and Boeing. And pilots.
Any ‘deadline’ AJ has announced previously (even in the unlikely event he wasn’t lying) has just disappeared and if anyone doesn’t realise that they need to seriously look at things again.
DON’T play into his hands. A ‘No’ vote will do nothing worse than simply buy time.
LWOP probably more important to offer right now....
This is truth:
QF shares have halved in value since 01/01/20. I cannot see anything happening with the A350 order for sometime. Excess a/c and staff will be the topic of the next board meeting
AJ is an incompetent businessman, has zero vision and hates ‘risking’ money - unless he is risking someone else’s for HIS personal benefit - that’s different, obviously.
it would be completely out of character for him to risk a single cent right now and equally as out of character to not play this crisis for all its worth with Airbus and Boeing. And pilots.
Any ‘deadline’ AJ has announced previously (even in the unlikely event he wasn’t lying) has just disappeared and if anyone doesn’t realise that they need to seriously look at things again.
DON’T play into his hands. A ‘No’ vote will do nothing worse than simply buy time.
LWOP probably more important to offer right now....
So the survey shows a 57% no vote, so what does AIPA do now.
Too much to catch up on
This is truth:
Don’t vote to yet again put pilots feet in mouth!
AJ is an incompetent businessman, has zero vision and hates ‘risking’ money - unless he is risking someone else’s for HIS personal benefit - that’s different, obviously.
it would be completely out of character for him to risk a single cent right now and equally as out of character to not play this crisis for all its worth with Airbus and Boeing. And pilots.
Any ‘deadline’ AJ has announced previously (even in the unlikely event he wasn’t lying) has just disappeared and if anyone doesn’t realise that they need to seriously look at things again.
DON’T play into his hands. A ‘No’ vote will do nothing worse than simply buy time.
LWOP probably more important to offer right now....
This is truth:
Don’t vote to yet again put pilots feet in mouth!
AJ is an incompetent businessman, has zero vision and hates ‘risking’ money - unless he is risking someone else’s for HIS personal benefit - that’s different, obviously.
it would be completely out of character for him to risk a single cent right now and equally as out of character to not play this crisis for all its worth with Airbus and Boeing. And pilots.
Any ‘deadline’ AJ has announced previously (even in the unlikely event he wasn’t lying) has just disappeared and if anyone doesn’t realise that they need to seriously look at things again.
DON’T play into his hands. A ‘No’ vote will do nothing worse than simply buy time.
LWOP probably more important to offer right now....
This vote result was utter bs.
FACT - the vote was corrupt because following the initial error, it meant guys had the ability to vote multiple times by manipulating technology. Don't believe me? Ask around....
FACT - it included SH voters. So not at all representative of LH.
The other simple fact is if someone has actually read the offer without bias they'd have to be galactically stupid to vote No.
Last edited by mmmbop; 12th Mar 2020 at 11:13.
Morno,
With the greatest respect, a comment such as yours would suggest that it is you that wants to lose conditions.
You should want to be paid for providing greater efficiency for the company, not asking to be paid FAR less for being more efficient.
Health concerns aside over new rostering, the money you seem to want to give away WILL be paid, it just won’t be paid to YOU. Certainly it’s a very magnanimous gesture on your behalf, but a great shame such gestures will be laughed at (if not ridiculed) and not applauded, as in the past they would have been.
20 years ago I doubt there would have been a single employee that wouldn’t have done what you seem to be doing (supporting a suggestion from management for another 30% pay cut). Unfortunately most of those have been sacked, and the others lied to obscenely on multiple occasions.
Being partly facetious, if you have your HR Dept hire enough psych tested ‘yes-men’ and get them inexperienced enough you can stack the decks I guess!
With the greatest respect, a comment such as yours would suggest that it is you that wants to lose conditions.
You should want to be paid for providing greater efficiency for the company, not asking to be paid FAR less for being more efficient.
Health concerns aside over new rostering, the money you seem to want to give away WILL be paid, it just won’t be paid to YOU. Certainly it’s a very magnanimous gesture on your behalf, but a great shame such gestures will be laughed at (if not ridiculed) and not applauded, as in the past they would have been.
20 years ago I doubt there would have been a single employee that wouldn’t have done what you seem to be doing (supporting a suggestion from management for another 30% pay cut). Unfortunately most of those have been sacked, and the others lied to obscenely on multiple occasions.
Being partly facetious, if you have your HR Dept hire enough psych tested ‘yes-men’ and get them inexperienced enough you can stack the decks I guess!
Answer these questions then V-Jet.
1) How can you possibly justify the money an A380 SO gets, as being justifiable?
2) How can you possibly justify wanting the same money to fly an A350 as is on offer to fly an A380?
3) Why am I getting told by friends within Qantas that the money on offer is still very good and equates to working about 1 day extra per month compared to what you do now
4) If they outsource the flying (and believe me, the notion before that unless the skygods do the flying, it will be unsafe, it’s absolutely absurd), will you not lose more in the long run by lost opportunities?
Don’t get me wrong mate, I hope for the sake of many at QF that you keep it all in house, but I can promise you that if it doesn’t, once the dust settles, I know plenty who would gladly take up the flying.
1) How can you possibly justify the money an A380 SO gets, as being justifiable?
2) How can you possibly justify wanting the same money to fly an A350 as is on offer to fly an A380?
3) Why am I getting told by friends within Qantas that the money on offer is still very good and equates to working about 1 day extra per month compared to what you do now
4) If they outsource the flying (and believe me, the notion before that unless the skygods do the flying, it will be unsafe, it’s absolutely absurd), will you not lose more in the long run by lost opportunities?
Don’t get me wrong mate, I hope for the sake of many at QF that you keep it all in house, but I can promise you that if it doesn’t, once the dust settles, I know plenty who would gladly take up the flying.
“The IR system and the FWA has removed uncertainty for business over the last 30 years, enabling them to control labour, a new Capital Feudalism. Employee relations are now a set piece game, a settled science and employees will be grateful for what they are given at the whim of the employer. “
Indeed, a reasonable summary of neo liberal capitalism at work. The old days of central bankers and policy makers targeting full employment are gone.
Price stability is now the focus with open financial markets and a “flexible”, globalized and de-unionized labor force.
“You should want to be paid for providing greater efficiency for the company, not asking to be paid FAR less for being more efficient.”
In what way would the pilots be contributing towards efficiency by flying the A350 in house?
“20 years ago I doubt there would have been a single employee that wouldn’t have done what you seem to be doing”
Times have changed, it is no longer 20 years ago and maybe QF pilots (and many other legacy pilots) need to re-acess the position they find themselves in?
Indeed, a reasonable summary of neo liberal capitalism at work. The old days of central bankers and policy makers targeting full employment are gone.
Price stability is now the focus with open financial markets and a “flexible”, globalized and de-unionized labor force.
“You should want to be paid for providing greater efficiency for the company, not asking to be paid FAR less for being more efficient.”
In what way would the pilots be contributing towards efficiency by flying the A350 in house?
“20 years ago I doubt there would have been a single employee that wouldn’t have done what you seem to be doing”
Times have changed, it is no longer 20 years ago and maybe QF pilots (and many other legacy pilots) need to re-acess the position they find themselves in?