Project Sunrise

[normanton]

Originally Posted by mmmbop

Normanton, despite the CEOs words, I strongly believe the 380s aren't going to last that long.....

Guess its in our best interest to get some 350s then.

No point in trying to hold onto the 380 S/O pay rates in a gamble for our future.

[V-Jet]

400 new pilots. 1000 new training slots. Huge retirement numbers coming up over the next 10 years = growth and movement.

Having heard that (what? only 3-4 times before in the last 10-15 years??) with rolled gold iron clad guarantees in place, forgive my hesitation for not jumping in hook line and sinker yet again.

I can't help myself asking this - but you'd have to be a Bernie Sanders supporter wouldn't you?

[morno]

Originally Posted by V-Jet

Having heard that (what? only 3-4 times before in the last 10-15 years??) with rolled gold iron clad guarantees in place, forgive my hesitation for not jumping in hook line and sinker yet again.

I can't help myself asking this - but you'd have to be a Bernie Sanders supporter wouldn't you?

I can’t help myself asking this - but you’d have to be a captain to want to give away your flying right?

[normanton]

Originally Posted by V-Jet

I can't help myself asking this - but you'd have to be a Bernie Sanders supporter wouldn't you?

No way! Make mainline great again! Vote YES for our future!

Originally Posted by morno

I can’t help myself asking this - but you’d have to be a captain to want to give away your flying right?

Of course. Voting NO to stick it to the company, yet also sticking it to our careers!

[V-Jet]

First and foremost, agreeing to anything on its first draft merely encourages the tactics that we see now.

Beyond that, there seems to be glorification in the persecution of those that have seen and experienced VERY first hand these very same tactics.

It would appear I am being ‘accused’ of being a Captain because I am doing my level best to explain how I have been lied to over the last 20 odd years. The easy route to take would be to think ‘why the hell would I care, I’m OK!’

But let me assure you that anyone I know who has been lied to as comprehensively and completely as I have will do their level best to explain the how’s and wherefores.

This is NOT OK. On any level the way Qf is treating staff has a Weinsteinesque flavour to it. Does anyone reading this not see the point? ‘Let me take this from you - or I’ll do this!’.

If anyone votes for this, make absolutely NO mistake, they are voting to continue this corporate bullying behaviour at every, single EBA. For it is a vote (aside from health - reducing your time as humans on the planet) to enshrine the fact that all pilots want to be bullied and enjoy it so much they want more next time.

There’s simply no other way to look at it, Forgetting the decades old Jetstar lies, Qantas asked for a 30% pay cut for the 787 flying. Millions of 787’s were going to rain down on pilots from every corner of the circular globe.

There are now 14.

The new kid on the block is an unsigned for Airbus contract. Possibly trillions of them! But unfortunately, we need another 30% more work. Of course it will have to be when no other person can be expected to be awake but sorry, that’s just the way it is....

Am I alone in seeing where this is leading??

Additionally, it’s an absolutely horrific mix of ULR AND back of clock 2 man crew flying. Personally, I just do NOT understand how someone could think of criticising anyone for pointing these facts out. If you don’t believe me have a serious talk to your DAME about same. This is not made up stuff. If you can’t talk to your DAME, there’s plenty on YouTube.

[dr dre]

Originally Posted by V-Jet

First and foremost, agreeing to anything on its first draft merely encourages the tactics that we see now.

I think most don’t see this a being the victim of bullying, rather an acknowledgement that the world has moved on and a small but very vocal minority are trying to keep conditions that the majority of crew know aren’t feasible anymore. The days of SOs making 250k+ plus are over, despite how vigorously a small minority want to fight to keep it. If the company has to use some decisive words to convince them of this then so be it.

Qantas asked for a 30% pay cut for the 787 flying.

Misleading. Almost all pilots now flying the 787 gained a pay rise from their previous role. Almost all of them much prefer the 787 to whatever they were flying before. There’s no push from 787 pilots to gain 380 style conditions on their fleet, they’re happy with what they have. I bet the 350 will be the same.

Millions of 787’s were going to rain down on pilots from every corner of the circular globe.

Well this virus is going to put a spanner in the works at the moment but the training system is flat out training for the first 14. If you look at the resources that have been allocated to 788 training it’s very likely there will be more than 14 aircraft.

But unfortunately, we need another 30% more work.

Again, no 350 pilot will be worse off than a 787/737/330 pilot is today. Slightly less than the 4 engine aircraft but the vast majority know those conditions are no longer an option.

Additionally, it’s an absolutely horrific mix of ULR AND back of clock 2 man crew flying. Personally, I just do NOT understand how someone could think of criticising anyone for pointing these facts out. If you don’t believe me have a serious talk to your DAME about same. This is not made up stuff. If you can’t talk to your DAME, there’s plenty on YouTube.

Long haul flying has always been detrimental to health. I think people today are more conscious about what they put in their bodies and how they conduct themselves on layovers compared to 20 years ago.

I’ll wager this. Let’s say the 350 was going to be operated under the legacy conditions that give huge overtime payments for each hour an ULH flight goes on. Despite any warning about health don’t you reckon the most senior trips would still be the ones the collected the maximum overtime, just like it’s always been? That a Syd-NYC would be more sought after than a Syd-LAX because of that sweet overtime? I reckon it’d be the same.

[Wingspar]

I remember Geoff Dixon at the Souths Junior meeting early 2000’s.
I believed him when he said, “do you think we wake up every morning thinking how can we screw the pilots?”.
Do you believe the company is holding back buying more 787’s just to screw the pilots?
Seriously?
Look, I bet at the moment they are wishing they had more 787’s to replace ‘380 and 744 routes.
They however go through extreme vetting before they commit to ordering more aircraft and committing capital.
I don’t think that’s such a bad thing!

[Wingspar]

Before anyone else says it, yes I remember what he said about JQ too!

[normanton]

Nice post V-Jet. Some good points in there.

I agree the way the company has gone about it is unacceptable. I'm sure you have read that the heads of AIPA also agree with you also.

What it comes down to is do you think the threat out outsourcing is credible? And for me (and a lot of people including AIPA) that answer is YES. So take your emotion out of it. Look at the facts. The 350's will come to mainline or a new entity. The new hire SO's will come to mainline or a new entity.

It was confirmed yesterday in a webinar that if this EBA gets voted up with a YES vote, there will be wording in the EBA that excludes certain items coming into effect if the 350's are never ordered. Those were: SO pay rates, training freezes, and the mixed fleet flying.

There are some things that will stay i.e. pre-allocaiton of duties. But there is also some GOOD things that will stay. Back pay, 3% pay rises, more allowances, home transport.

It was also communicated that the company will be sending a letter to AIPA confirming that a YES vote will result in mainline pilots flying the 350. Just like they sent a letter to AIPA for the 787.

If you take emotion out of your vote, there really is no reason why you shouldn't be voting YES for this EBA. Not to mention that given the current climate the 3% pay rises isn't something we should snub.

Originally Posted by V-Jet

Additionally, it’s an absolutely horrific mix of ULR AND back of clock 2 man crew flying. Personally, I just do NOT understand how someone could think of criticising anyone for pointing these facts out. If you don’t believe me have a serious talk to your DAME about same. This is not made up stuff. If you can’t talk to your DAME, there’s plenty on YouTube.

Just remember that this is new flying. We don't know the exact consequences of it just yet. The company might be right, extra sleep might help. We don't know.

The flying is opt in only. If you don't want to do it your not being forced to. Just because it doesn't suit you, doesn't mean it wont work for other pilots. Denying them that chance is IMO selfish.

[Guitar Joe]

Originally Posted by normanton

Nice post V-Jet. Some good points in there.

I agree the way the company has gone about it is unacceptable. I'm sure you have read that the heads of AIPA also agree with you also.

What it comes down to is do you think the threat out outsourcing is credible? And for me (and a lot of people including AIPA) that answer is YES. So take your emotion out of it. Look at the facts. The 350's will come to mainline or a new entity. The new hire SO's will come to mainline or a new entity.

It was confirmed yesterday in a webinar that if this EBA gets voted up with a YES vote, there will be wording in the EBA that excludes certain items coming into effect if the 350's are never ordered. Those were: SO pay rates, training freezes, and the mixed fleet flying.

There are some things that will stay i.e. pre-allocaiton of duties. But there is also some GOOD things that will stay. Back pay, 3% pay rises, more allowances, home transport.

It was also communicated that the company will be sending a letter to AIPA confirming that a YES vote will result in mainline pilots flying the 350. Just like they sent a letter to AIPA for the 787.

If you take emotion out of your vote, there really is no reason why you shouldn't be voting YES for this EBA. Not to mention that given the current climate the 3% pay rises isn't something we should snub.


Just remember that this is new flying. We don't know the exact consequences of it just yet. The company might be right, extra sleep might help. We don't know.

The flying is opt in only. If you don't want to do it your not being forced to. Just because it doesn't suit you, doesn't mean it wont work for other pilots. Denying them that chance is IMO selfish.

This. Spot on Normanton.

[V-Jet]

I think most don’t see this a being the victim of bullying, rather an acknowledgement that the world has moved on and a small but very vocal minority are trying to keep conditions that the majority of crew know aren’t feasible anymore. The days of SOs making 250k+ plus are over, despite how vigorously a small minority want to fight to keep it. If the company has to use some decisive words to convince them of this then so be it

In the way Qf deal with issues, it most certainly is bullying. Do not for a second think any concessions by crew won't be paid. They will be paid, but not to the crew doing the work.

Misleading. Almost all pilots now flying the 787 gained a pay rise from their previous role.

On the contrary - your comment is misleading. The reason the 78 got up was because the 737 conditions were so bad that anything looked better. But taking your words as you write them you are broadcasting you would have been happy to accept anything. Warrior flight instructor wages aren't that high if you compare previous roles.

Again, no 350 pilot will be worse off than a 787/737/330 pilot is today. Slightly less than the 4 engine aircraft but the vast majority know those conditions are no longer an option.

NIce expression of the Party line! Consider yourself fully versed in the concept of Doublethink! The Company should have had these aircraft 20 years ago. You simply cannot compete against fleets burning 4,500kgs an hour with machines burning 13,000kgs an hour. Using EXACTLY the same argument you state here, but turning it on it's head, crew should be paid MORE because they are FAR more efficient. Despite the fact your pay cuts will be paid (just not to crew) the major saving is fuel, the wages are negligible in comparison. Management will be rewarding themselves for making fuel savings (that pilots were screaming for decades ago) so they should also be rewarding the people actually doing the work.

That a Syd-NYC would be more sought after than a Syd-LAX because of that sweet overtime? I reckon it’d be the same.

On it's own that looks like a fair statement. Except that Qantas has NEVER had pilots doing frequent ULR flying. Combine that with 2 pilot back of clock flying as well and you will be feeling ill the entire time. I know you've heard this before and don't seem to understand but 5 years of the flying I have done and you feel like crap. This new type of combined flying is going to be pure evil for the body clock. AND you are doing MORE HOURS!!

Wingspar - glad you noticed the JQ thing. This is the same deal. Qantas are past masters at lying, obfuscating and being completely slimy. I can't believe people have swept JQ under the carpet and pretending it didn't happen!

Just remember that this is new flying. We don't know the exact consequences of it just yet. The company might be right, extra sleep might help. We don't know.

Doublethink again! This is NOT new flying. Qantas has been flying SYD-JFK for decades, also Mexico, Cairo, Rome, Amsterdam, countless others and that's without even taking their beloved codeshare into account. Totally ridiculous to argue that because a company buys a new aircraft it is 'new' flying. That is what airlines have to do or they aren't airlines!

The flying is opt in only. If you don't want to do it your not being forced to. Just because it doesn't suit you, doesn't mean it wont work for other pilots. Denying them that chance is IMO selfish.

Again, on the surface that looks very reasonable. Except for the old genie and bottle argument. This is a replacement contract with a circa 30% pay cut, on top of the previous 30% pay cut. Once it's out of the bottle it will become the new norm - you can bet your future on that.



Taking emotion out of this debate and boiling everything down, AJ asked crew for a 30% pay cut for the 787. Despite throwing out so many hard fought for and valuable protections (I still can't believe it!) we voted yes. Now AJ has a new aircraft (one that HE wants to order) and guess what? He is asking for a 30% paycut to do it. We were good little pilots and voted yes last time - he would be an absolute idiot not to ask again! I despise AJ because he has simply sold the family silver to line his own pockets and in my opinion is an absolutely incompetent businessman, but an idiot he is not - asking for something he asked for and received before is very easy money!

Here's another thing no one has even contemplated that I've seen on these pages. I know it's a very hard one to pick and does go both ways, but a few short months ago the $AUD/$USD was 0.75. Now it's $0.65. The pundits suggest it is headed lower (which I agree with). Brent Crude price aside (remember the company has focussed on pay and not fuel for this argument) that's around a 15% saving on wages right there. AJ is going to look very clever all around on this.

I do have sympathy for anyone dealing with bat flu. This thing is going to wreak merry hell on economies around the world, but Qantas WILL survive. It has for 100 years and despite AJ's best efforts still has some life left. He has dealt with this by weaponising a nasty situation (that he himself of course isn't dealing with at all - YOU are the frontline there) and turning it against staff. I find that behaviour not out of character, but quite frankly totally revolting.

[V-Jet]

Just remember that this is new flying. We don't know the exact consequences of it just yet. The company might be right, extra sleep might help. We don't know.
Doublethink again! This is NOT new flying. Qantas has been flying SYD-JFK for decades, also Mexico, Cairo, Rome, Amsterdam, countless others and that's without even taking their beloved codeshare into account. Totally ridiculous to argue that because a company buys a new aircraft it is 'new' flying. That is what airlines have to do or they aren't airlines!

I got disturbed answering that. I really don't like the 'this is new flying' argument, because commercially it isn't - except Qantas seem to be able to charge a premium customers are happy to pay.

The jet lag thing can't be underestimated. It's the worst of both worlds. Of course extra sleep will help - but you won't be able to when you need to! And you WILL find yourself falling asleep on approach when you most certainly should not.

[normanton]

Your initial post had some merit, but your starting to go off the charts into the scaremongering bandwagon now. A lot of your points aren't even worth replying to as your reasoning is bordering towards ridiculous.

Originally Posted by V-Jet

Additionally, it’s an absolutely horrific mix of ULR AND back of clock 2 man crew flying. Personally, I just do NOT understand how someone could think of criticising anyone for pointing these facts out. If you don’t believe me have a serious talk to your DAME about same. This is not made up stuff. If you can’t talk to your DAME, there’s plenty on YouTube.

Can you let us know when in the Qantas history book we have done 21 hours direct SYD - JFK?

He is asking for a 30% paycut to do it

Please provide proof of this statement.

you can bet your future on that.

The only thing that I'm willing to bet on my future, is that if the 350s don't come to mainline, it WILL be the end of mainline. Progression will stagnate, 380 pilots will be RINd, and we would rely on retirements not to be made redundant as the fleet size further erodes.

The only thing to do to ensure a future at mainline here, is to vote YES.

From your comments you appear to indicate you voted NO for EBA 9. Let's hope the vast majority vote YES again. As it has been pointed out multiple times, it is a pay increase over the 787 fleet. And that's IF you want to do the flying.

As I have said before, easy to vote NO when you are comfortably in the LHS. Perhaps you should heed the advice given from the AIPA President & VP. Better yet, next time you go flying have a good chat to the guys/gals in the back, because your reasoning for voting NO will have a very negative impact on their career path.

[normanton]

Originally Posted by beautiful_butterfly

G
Now that that’s settled, can we look at the facts?

Yes the facts are a NO vote will mean the 350s go to a new entity.

Let us know once you understand that concept.

[Maggie Island]

Pot/Kettle?

Originally Posted by normanton

Your initial post had some merit, but your starting to go off the charts into the scaremongering bandwagon now.


The only thing that I'm willing to bet on my future, is that if the 350s don't come to mainline, it WILL be the end of mainline. Progression will stagnate, 380 pilots will be RINd, and we would rely on retirements not to be made redundant as the fleet size further erodes.

Now theres some right proper fear mongering I can take my tin-foil hat off to!

[normanton]

Originally Posted by Maggie Island

Now theres some right proper fear mongering I can take my tin-foil hat off to!

I'm really sorry if you can't see how this plays out into the future. I recommend going back and reading posts here and on qrewroom. It's been spelt out multiple times.

[normanton]

Originally Posted by beautiful_butterfly

Normie, you keep saying that? Can you try a new approach? One not laced in lies?

A positive campaign to convince the masses?

A NO vote will be a very positive outcome for all involved.

The company will immediately come back to the table with AIPA, and offer 380 rates for all current and future hires of the 350. Furthermore he was just bluffing, the 350's are still coming to mainline.

Tino now understands that AIPA and the mass NO voters had the leverage all the time, and he won't ever dare try that approach again. The webinars will immediately stop on all fronts.

Training freezes, S/O pay scales, and 330/350 flying is completely removed from the EBA. However, the company is happy to leave the improved conditions for us as a token of respect.

With such low oil prices currently hitting the market, Tino busts the 350 replacement for 380 rumour, by ordering another 100 x 380s in an attempt to battle Emirates head on post coronavirus.

Have a great day.

[dragon man]

Let’s move on, the EBA will get up. We have the best management of any airline in the world. The virus and it’s economic effects will be all gone in 6 months according to Qantas , many airlines will be broke ( governments of course will not bail out their flag carriers) and Qantas will be bigger and stronger than ever. The 380s will be flying 24/7 record bonuses will be paid.🐖🐖🐖🐖 might fly to

[Sunfish]

Don’t forget the tax implications.

[ruprecht]

I am a reformed no voter.

With both Tino’s emails, I was an automatic no vote. Why? Because “f#ck you, that’s why.” The audacity to circumvent AIPA was what put me offside. I hate the tactics used, and the fact that a former president of AIPA is involved pisses me off no end.

BUT, I am under no illusions with what and who I am dealing with here. It comes down to risk and reward. If we vote no, there will be a separate entity created. It’s that simple. Tino has stated it to be the case and I cannot imagine anyone in QF management making a threat like that without having done a lot of research beforehand, and they will do it REGARDLESS of the cost. We will not have business or public support in any fight with QF over this. We need to gather up what remains of our unit, stay united and fight another day. This is not the hill to die on.

Remember, you should only gamble with what you are prepared to lose... and for that reason I will be voting yes.

Normanton is correct, there is no clear path forward for the no camp.

ruprecht