Project Sunrise
How does anyone think that will go down with the movers and shakers and other big-swinging-dicks of the Qantas Club? Seriously?
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Personally I still don’t know which way I will vote. I’m relying quite heavily on AIPA and their resources to do all the required due diligence and legal research. Their communication and leadership over them next couple of weeks will probably play a large role in how I vote.
A few things a can’t stomach about the proposal.
New SO pay. Not only are they proposing to limit it to 6 year pay, but they want to replace the current pay scale with an extension of the first 18 months of probation pay. It’s condemning all new SOs to eternal probation pay which is very unfair. “Who cares? Not our problem” is a disappointing view from junior crew who not so long ago were new SOs themselves.
They want the sunrise conditions to extend to all sectors the 350 will do. I understand that for ULR flying, the current overtime rules is probably unrealistic. Why not put a cap on overtime for sunrise flying. But, it’s clear the 350 will also be doing current non sunrise sectors as well eg. Syd-lax, Syd-dfw etc. I don’t see why the conditions need to change for the 350 flying on non sunrise flights. This is pure daylight robbery of our conditions.
On the other hand, I obviously don’t want to see a new scabby entity take our flying. As I mentioned, long term this strategy doesn’t make sense but the airline shut down in 2012 didn’t make sense either, so they are probably capable to doing it.
Personally I would benefit from a yes vote if the company’s promise of growth eventuates but morally, voting yes doesn’t currently sit well.
A few things a can’t stomach about the proposal.
New SO pay. Not only are they proposing to limit it to 6 year pay, but they want to replace the current pay scale with an extension of the first 18 months of probation pay. It’s condemning all new SOs to eternal probation pay which is very unfair. “Who cares? Not our problem” is a disappointing view from junior crew who not so long ago were new SOs themselves.
They want the sunrise conditions to extend to all sectors the 350 will do. I understand that for ULR flying, the current overtime rules is probably unrealistic. Why not put a cap on overtime for sunrise flying. But, it’s clear the 350 will also be doing current non sunrise sectors as well eg. Syd-lax, Syd-dfw etc. I don’t see why the conditions need to change for the 350 flying on non sunrise flights. This is pure daylight robbery of our conditions.
On the other hand, I obviously don’t want to see a new scabby entity take our flying. As I mentioned, long term this strategy doesn’t make sense but the airline shut down in 2012 didn’t make sense either, so they are probably capable to doing it.
Personally I would benefit from a yes vote if the company’s promise of growth eventuates but morally, voting yes doesn’t currently sit well.
1. Does anyone have an estimate of the number of Aust pilots who have been furloughed by overseas carriers.
2. With Virgin Australia shares dropping below 10c is it true VA are looking at dumping their 6 x A330's and adding 1 x B777 to their fleet to reduce losses and costs. This would mean a large number of VA A330 pilots may be offered redundancy and the opportunity to leave a sinking ship and work for a real airline.
2 I do not understand how QF can be seen to operate 2 x B747-8F aircraft using foreign a/c and crews with rumours a third one will be needed soon.
2. With Virgin Australia shares dropping below 10c is it true VA are looking at dumping their 6 x A330's and adding 1 x B777 to their fleet to reduce losses and costs. This would mean a large number of VA A330 pilots may be offered redundancy and the opportunity to leave a sinking ship and work for a real airline.
2 I do not understand how QF can be seen to operate 2 x B747-8F aircraft using foreign a/c and crews with rumours a third one will be needed soon.
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Personally I still don’t know which way I will vote. I’m relying quite heavily on AIPA and their resources to do all the required due diligence and legal research. Their communication and leadership over them next couple of weeks will probably play a large role in how I vote.
A few things a can’t stomach about the proposal.
New SO pay. Not only are they proposing to limit it to 6 year pay, but they want to replace the current pay scale with an extension of the first 18 months of probation pay. It’s condemning all new SOs to eternal probation pay which is very unfair. “Who cares? Not our problem” is a disappointing view from junior crew who not so long ago were new SOs themselves.
They want the sunrise conditions to extend to all sectors the 350 will do. I understand that for ULR flying, the current overtime rules is probably unrealistic. Why not put a cap on overtime for sunrise flying. But, it’s clear the 350 will also be doing current non sunrise sectors as well eg. Syd-lax, Syd-dfw etc. I don’t see why the conditions need to change for the 350 flying on non sunrise flights. This is pure daylight robbery of our conditions.
On the other hand, I obviously don’t want to see a new scabby entity take our flying. As I mentioned, long term this strategy doesn’t make sense but the airline shut down in 2012 didn’t make sense either, so they are probably capable to doing it.
Personally I would benefit from a yes vote if the company’s promise of growth eventuates but morally, voting yes doesn’t currently sit well.
A few things a can’t stomach about the proposal.
New SO pay. Not only are they proposing to limit it to 6 year pay, but they want to replace the current pay scale with an extension of the first 18 months of probation pay. It’s condemning all new SOs to eternal probation pay which is very unfair. “Who cares? Not our problem” is a disappointing view from junior crew who not so long ago were new SOs themselves.
They want the sunrise conditions to extend to all sectors the 350 will do. I understand that for ULR flying, the current overtime rules is probably unrealistic. Why not put a cap on overtime for sunrise flying. But, it’s clear the 350 will also be doing current non sunrise sectors as well eg. Syd-lax, Syd-dfw etc. I don’t see why the conditions need to change for the 350 flying on non sunrise flights. This is pure daylight robbery of our conditions.
On the other hand, I obviously don’t want to see a new scabby entity take our flying. As I mentioned, long term this strategy doesn’t make sense but the airline shut down in 2012 didn’t make sense either, so they are probably capable to doing it.
Personally I would benefit from a yes vote if the company’s promise of growth eventuates but morally, voting yes doesn’t currently sit well.
I guess it comes down to how credible you think Tino's threat it.
I believe they will do it. For that reason, the SO's are better employed under mainline instead of a new entity.
Eating your young. Throwing SOs under the bus, whatever you want to call it. IMO its the lesser of two evils.
Ahhh is this the ole sky god attitude of only QF pilots are good enough?
I am sure returning expats more than capable of flying aircraft.
I am not saying that a new entity is a good option, merely questioning the ole attitude.
I apologise if I am barking up the wrong tree as haven’t read all recent posts.
I am sure returning expats more than capable of flying aircraft.
I am not saying that a new entity is a good option, merely questioning the ole attitude.
I apologise if I am barking up the wrong tree as haven’t read all recent posts.
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What’s the end game? Is it straight 330 rate and conditions to carry over onto the 350, leave all the night credits and AFDP’s as they are? What about 747 rate? What about 380 rate?
Removal of new hire SO rate?
Removal of 4 year training freeze?
Removal of pre allocated training?
Should the 350 just be a completely seperate type to replace the 747 in the rank structure to allow continued bidding between fleets for Captains and Fo’s?
Do we just roll over EBA 9 into EBA 10 and take 3% and say **** your 350?
What would make the Majority vote yes?
I’m just curious as to how far off the mark we are in their mind?
Personally I’d love to see them leave everything as is and see the 350 become the new 747... but I’m not so delusional as to believe we will ever see those terms be renewed for a new aircraft. At best we can hope to equal or slightly surpass 787 pay.
Correct me if my logic is flawed.
Ahhh is this the ole sky god attitude of only QF pilots are good enough?
I am sure returning expats more than capable of flying aircraft.
I am not saying that a new entity is a good option, merely questioning the ole attitude.
I apologise if I am barking up the wrong tree as haven’t read all recent posts.
I am sure returning expats more than capable of flying aircraft.
I am not saying that a new entity is a good option, merely questioning the ole attitude.
I apologise if I am barking up the wrong tree as haven’t read all recent posts.
747-8f
1. Does anyone have an estimate of the number of Aust pilots who have been furloughed by overseas carriers.
2. With Virgin Australia shares dropping below 10c is it true VA are looking at dumping their 6 x A330's and adding 1 x B777 to their fleet to reduce losses and costs. This would mean a large number of VA A330 pilots may be offered redundancy and the opportunity to leave a sinking ship and work for a real airline.
2 I do not understand how QF can be seen to operate 2 x B747-8F aircraft using foreign a/c and crews with rumours a third one will be needed soon.
2. With Virgin Australia shares dropping below 10c is it true VA are looking at dumping their 6 x A330's and adding 1 x B777 to their fleet to reduce losses and costs. This would mean a large number of VA A330 pilots may be offered redundancy and the opportunity to leave a sinking ship and work for a real airline.
2 I do not understand how QF can be seen to operate 2 x B747-8F aircraft using foreign a/c and crews with rumours a third one will be needed soon.
Theeeeere we go. Finally, the truth. And the only real motivation for the long string of manic posts.
“Truth is stranger than fiction, but it is because fiction is obliged to stick to possibilities; Truth isn’t” - Mark Twain.
“Truth is stranger than fiction, but it is because fiction is obliged to stick to possibilities; Truth isn’t” - Mark Twain.
The Mark Twain quote is very apt.
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That's the real truth here.
But please, continue with your scaremongering comments.
Il vote my way you vote your way , to be honest I don’t care much any more but by 2025 if you haven’t gotten 400 new pilot positions over and above retirements and 1000 training positions don’t say you weren’t told and also realise that you are now paying for your training thru the last EBA changes. As for Rated D he has retired due to ill health, personally I miss his comments he is no fool.
~400 new pilot positions, and ~1000 training positions within mainline.
That's the real truth here.
That's the real truth here.
That’s the funniest thing I’ve ever read. Geoff Dixon promised every FO they’d be a Captain within 3 years about 15 years ago.
QF was supposed to get 100 787s. Unicorns and payrises for all.
There are a number of reasons to vote yes (as there are to vote no)but this complete and utter BS is not one of them.
Last edited by DirectAnywhere; 4th Mar 2020 at 04:50.
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BWAHAHAHHAHAHAHHAAH!!!!😂😂😂😂
That’s the funniest thing I’ve ever read. Geoff Dixon promised every FO they’d be a Captain within 3 years about 15 years ago.
QF was supposed to get 100 787s. Unicorns and payrises for all.
There are a number of reasons to vote yes but this utter BS is not one of them.
That’s the funniest thing I’ve ever read. Geoff Dixon promised every FO they’d be a Captain within 3 years about 15 years ago.
QF was supposed to get 100 787s. Unicorns and payrises for all.
There are a number of reasons to vote yes but this utter BS is not one of them.
“But didn’t you hear Tino, he said there would be!” 😆😆😆😆
Normanton we can see you quivering in the corner through the way you’re responding. Settle down a bit mate, you’ll still get an FO gig one day! With either a YES or NO it’s going to be a lot longer than when you’ve been promised by Tino though!
a YES vote doesn’t guarantee PS will even get off the ground nor continue to operate. But those new conditions you’re signing up for will.
a NO vote doesn’t guarantee the company will do what it is threatening. But it might. 🤷♂️
Welcome to the world of IR.
Qantas isn’t going to cease flying aircraft around if a NO vote eventuates. Before you jump in with “RIN”, you’re getting one of those either way you vote in the next decade.
If Tino is so sure the project is going ahead then just order the aircraft already. Maybe holding the finalised sale contracts up for the world to see might have a bit more impact on the vote? But all these threats are just that, threats.
Maybe I’d be more inclined to vote YES if Management forewent their bonuses for a couple of years and accept being paid their salary to do the job they were contracted to do. “Help meet the business case”
The COM will have a well informed decision (I bloody hope) for us all next week. This will have a major impact not only on the vote, but also the future of AIPA I suspect?
Until then, stop being so defensive to everyone’s views. Chill out.
Without prejudice, just for hypothetical..
“In breaking news today, the QANTAS share price dropped below $1:50 for the first time in years, wiping millions off the share price. The S and P downgrade followed the departure of the CEO international after the ongoing feud between QANTAS and the AIPA in reaching an agreement with its future ULH operations. The head of AIPA stated, “we still believe we should fly the aircraft on the 787 contract with an added percentage, unfortunately, it was QANTAS who played the outsource card. We have done and will continue to do everything in our power to help our customers get to their destination on time and on schedule. They cannot ground the fleet whilst we are delivering the usual product, albeit a little more expensively. The increase in cost is only due to the existential threat QANTAS imposed on its workforce who feel they own part of the goodwill of the brand.”
It was noted by local share broker and aviation EXPERT Jeffro Thomarse, that there are no share buy backs in a tumbling market, the covid-19 virus is still causing havoc and the recession that Australia has had for the first time in 26 years has lead to increasing pressure on the board to come to a deal with its remaining pilots. When asked for comment QANTAS refused. We await further on the update from the latest talks with Jetstar, over to you Jenny.”
“In breaking news today, the QANTAS share price dropped below $1:50 for the first time in years, wiping millions off the share price. The S and P downgrade followed the departure of the CEO international after the ongoing feud between QANTAS and the AIPA in reaching an agreement with its future ULH operations. The head of AIPA stated, “we still believe we should fly the aircraft on the 787 contract with an added percentage, unfortunately, it was QANTAS who played the outsource card. We have done and will continue to do everything in our power to help our customers get to their destination on time and on schedule. They cannot ground the fleet whilst we are delivering the usual product, albeit a little more expensively. The increase in cost is only due to the existential threat QANTAS imposed on its workforce who feel they own part of the goodwill of the brand.”
It was noted by local share broker and aviation EXPERT Jeffro Thomarse, that there are no share buy backs in a tumbling market, the covid-19 virus is still causing havoc and the recession that Australia has had for the first time in 26 years has lead to increasing pressure on the board to come to a deal with its remaining pilots. When asked for comment QANTAS refused. We await further on the update from the latest talks with Jetstar, over to you Jenny.”
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I reckon we're on a similar-ish page on most issues about this vote, but I'm certainly not counting on that many new positions! For me, it's all about whether I (A380 SO) and other early and mid-career types can be confident of a future in mainline. I'm an optimist about PS being a serious competitive advantage for Qantas, and the B787/A350 combo being able to open up more routes than the B747/A380, which could lead to growth for Qantas and hopefully a promotion for me (subject to all of the things, of course). But that's not the deciding factor for me.