Project Sunrise
Virtually every aviation related EBA negotiation over the last decade has ended up being resolved only after PIA was awarded. PIA was initiated after the companies involved failed to negotiate in good faith i.e. The airlines demanded a reduction in pay and conditions in the face of very reasonable requests for improvement from the staff. There is an indelible history of airlines being forced to negotiate in good faith which will eventually lose them favour with the FWC, threatening to “offshore” the operation if the pilots don’t agree to lesser terms is only going to hasten that transition. It’s a NO from me!
I’m not involved but have an opinion.
I reckon you guys need to do whatever it takes to avoid a B scale kind of set up. Once that has its foot in the door time zips past and all of a sudden it’s not the same Airline.
Is there anyone who actually wants to do this kind of flying anyway? The thought of it makes my toes curl.
I reckon you guys need to do whatever it takes to avoid a B scale kind of set up. Once that has its foot in the door time zips past and all of a sudden it’s not the same Airline.
Is there anyone who actually wants to do this kind of flying anyway? The thought of it makes my toes curl.
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I’m not involved but have an opinion.
I reckon you guys need to do whatever it takes to avoid a B scale kind of set up. Once that has its foot in the door time zips past and all of a sudden it’s not the same Airline.
Is there anyone who actually wants to do this kind of flying anyway? The thought of it makes my toes curl.
I reckon you guys need to do whatever it takes to avoid a B scale kind of set up. Once that has its foot in the door time zips past and all of a sudden it’s not the same Airline.
Is there anyone who actually wants to do this kind of flying anyway? The thought of it makes my toes curl.
Like I’ve said previously. The 350 will be on the Qantas AOC. Dick will be the CP. The mainline fleet managers and training managers will acquire the 350 on their books. Just like.......Jetconnect. Jetconnect pilots are essentially mainline pilots......just on a different set of conditions.. This will be NO different.
For anyone in mainline with 15 to 20 years plus left to go it’s a huge gamble to call the companies bluff (and I don’t think for a second that they are bluffing.).
We already have a B scale. It’s called the 787.
I’m not involved but have an opinion.
I reckon you guys need to do whatever it takes to avoid a B scale kind of set up. Once that has its foot in the door time zips past and all of a sudden it’s not the same Airline.
Is there anyone who actually wants to do this kind of flying anyway? The thought of it makes my toes curl.
I reckon you guys need to do whatever it takes to avoid a B scale kind of set up. Once that has its foot in the door time zips past and all of a sudden it’s not the same Airline.
Is there anyone who actually wants to do this kind of flying anyway? The thought of it makes my toes curl.
In basic speak, 2 x 6 day trips a month. 18 days off a month, ok take 4 out for recovery, 14 days off a month. Yep I’ve over simplified it for sure.
However I do not like the idea of 1 Capt only. 2 full crew seems the safest way, yep like SQ.
In basic speak, 2 x 6 day trips a month. 18 days off a month, ok take 4 out for recovery, 14 days off a month. Yep I’ve over simplified it for sure.
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So if you vote No.....there are two possibilities:
a) AIPA and the company negotiate and the offer is improved
b) the company make true their statement of outsourcing the flying where conditions may not be as favourable.
You are voting on which one is more likely.
a) AIPA and the company negotiate and the offer is improved
b) the company make true their statement of outsourcing the flying where conditions may not be as favourable.
You are voting on which one is more likely.
Imagine you were selling a car for $10,000. You’d like $12,000 and can get $7,000 from a dealer.
Someone says to you to take $6000 or they have another car they will buy that’s actually cheaper.
Would you
a) Take $6,000?
b) Tell them they should buy the other car?
c) Wait to see if they come back with a better offer knowing you have $7,000 already?
Aside from being ‘told’ there is a deadline, is there really? Pilots don’t but Qantas have a major history of outright lies and mis truths. I’d suggest if it was a ‘major’ deadline (and not a threat) this deadline and all the contract work would have been worked out many months ago.
Someone says to you to take $6000 or they have another car they will buy that’s actually cheaper.
Would you
a) Take $6,000?
b) Tell them they should buy the other car?
c) Wait to see if they come back with a better offer knowing you have $7,000 already?
Aside from being ‘told’ there is a deadline, is there really? Pilots don’t but Qantas have a major history of outright lies and mis truths. I’d suggest if it was a ‘major’ deadline (and not a threat) this deadline and all the contract work would have been worked out many months ago.
Qantas said there was a firm deadline of the end of 2019, ”No deal then No aeroplanes will be ordered”
Then we got there and they said, ”well actually the deadline is now March, No deal by then and No aeroplanes will be ordered”
Approaching March and, ”well actually we will order the plane with or without a deal but you have a deadline to vote Yes or someone else will fly it”
Notice something about each of these supposedly immovable deadlines??? They were all dreamt up by Qantas as a negotiating tactic to put pressure on the pilots. When they arrived suddenly there was more time to negotiate or the threat didn’t eventuate. Why are you so sure this time they are for real? They could easily order the aircraft and negotiate the EA later while still holding onto their threat of an “external entity”.
The garbage about “needing certainty” before placing an order is clearly false as the external entity plan has ZERO certainty. What is the pay, how will rosters work if only flying ULH, can we find and train enough pilots in time, do the numbers stack up without the MVF, S/O pay cuts and what might Fair Work say if AIPA challenge it based on the Integration Agreement. Definitely no “certainty” on that path.
If it’s a sh1t deal, vote no and go back to the negotiating table.
What everyone should realise is that it doesn’t matter if you work for Qantas or Jetstar or Virgin or Tiger or Rex or anyone, at some point your employer can say “Accept this ****1y deal or we will buy new planes and you won’t fly them”. So as pilots are we automatically doomed to accept whatever is put before us at the first vote? If so then we are all screwed.
Then we got there and they said, ”well actually the deadline is now March, No deal by then and No aeroplanes will be ordered”
Approaching March and, ”well actually we will order the plane with or without a deal but you have a deadline to vote Yes or someone else will fly it”
Notice something about each of these supposedly immovable deadlines??? They were all dreamt up by Qantas as a negotiating tactic to put pressure on the pilots. When they arrived suddenly there was more time to negotiate or the threat didn’t eventuate. Why are you so sure this time they are for real? They could easily order the aircraft and negotiate the EA later while still holding onto their threat of an “external entity”.
The garbage about “needing certainty” before placing an order is clearly false as the external entity plan has ZERO certainty. What is the pay, how will rosters work if only flying ULH, can we find and train enough pilots in time, do the numbers stack up without the MVF, S/O pay cuts and what might Fair Work say if AIPA challenge it based on the Integration Agreement. Definitely no “certainty” on that path.
If it’s a sh1t deal, vote no and go back to the negotiating table.
What everyone should realise is that it doesn’t matter if you work for Qantas or Jetstar or Virgin or Tiger or Rex or anyone, at some point your employer can say “Accept this ****1y deal or we will buy new planes and you won’t fly them”. So as pilots are we automatically doomed to accept whatever is put before us at the first vote? If so then we are all screwed.
And that’s what I’ve said should be pushed for, life is not all about money! Would only work if it was a unanimous want as you know. I know I’ll never be in the position to vote for it! Good luck!!!
If QF does go down the path of engaging a third party to operate the A350s, there won’t be any shortage of qualified Airbus widebody aussie pilots to fill the positions, with Chinese carriers and Hong Kong Airlines furloughing their foreign pilots.
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Timmeeee I’ve got a very good jet job in Australia and consider myself very lucky so no you’re not exactly correct. I do have an interest in making sure the company I work for continues to expand, recruit, promote and remain profitable. To me it’s quite obvious what the outcome will be. If I was AJ I would jump at the chance of breaking the LH contract and setting up a new lower paid entity. Personally I don’t want to give him the ability to do that. I guess everyone just vote for what’s best for themselves and their family and whatever the outcome, go from there. That’s what I will be doing. If people are happy to call their bluff and assume that a better deal will be negotiated then good luck to them. If they are happy with the possibility that the company isn’t bluffing and sends all future growth and recruitment to a new entity not affiliated with the LH award then again, good luck to them.
Good luck to all.
Good luck to all.
Last edited by PPRuNeUser0184; 16th Feb 2020 at 02:06.
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But I agree with you that expats will come back at the drop of a hat to fly a 350.
Timmeeee I’ve got a very good jet job in Australia and consider myself very lucky so no you’re not exactly correct. I do have an interest in making sure the company I work for continues to expand, recruit, promote and remain profitable. To me it’s quite obvious what the outcome will be. If I was AJ I would jump at the chance of breaking the LH contract and setting up a new lower paid entity. Personally I don’t want to give him the ability to do that. I guess everyone just vote for what’s best for themselves and their family and whatever the outcome, go from there. That’s what I will be doing. If people are happy to call their bluff and assume that a better deal will be negotiated then good luck to them. If they are happy with the possibility that the company isn’t bluffing and sends all future growth and recruitment to a new entity not affiliated with the LH award then again, good luck to them.
Good luck to all.
Good luck to all.
Vanity in front of Profits
First of all the Company threatened the pilots by saying without a deal they won't order the aircraft for the Sunrise route.
Then then the Company threatened the pilots by saying without a deal, they will order the aircraft but invent some subsidiary company and pilots to fly the route.
So who wants the goddamed Project Sunrise route anyway? The commercial reality is that the economics of the route will dictate that it will make meager profits at best and maybe never break even.
Its pretty obvious to all and sundry that the Company wants the route as a vanity PR thing to wave around in front of the other big swinging dicks of the airline world.
But do the pilots want Project Sunrise? They sure as heck don't want it if it screws up the hard fought for terms and conditions agreement which has taken years to hone and perfect.
Tell the Company pay up what is reasonable for a truly dreadful sector length and work pattern, or just forget about Project Sunrise happening with real Qantas pilots.
First of all the Company threatened the pilots by saying without a deal they won't order the aircraft for the Sunrise route.
Then then the Company threatened the pilots by saying without a deal, they will order the aircraft but invent some subsidiary company and pilots to fly the route.
So who wants the goddamed Project Sunrise route anyway? The commercial reality is that the economics of the route will dictate that it will make meager profits at best and maybe never break even.
Its pretty obvious to all and sundry that the Company wants the route as a vanity PR thing to wave around in front of the other big swinging dicks of the airline world.
But do the pilots want Project Sunrise? They sure as heck don't want it if it screws up the hard fought for terms and conditions agreement which has taken years to hone and perfect.
Tell the Company pay up what is reasonable for a truly dreadful sector length and work pattern, or just forget about Project Sunrise happening with real Qantas pilots.
Anything over 15 hours flight is a health hazard. Ask the ex AN pilots who flew the SQ A340-500 SIN-EWR-SIN. In fact one of them is being buried in MEL on Tuesday 18 Feb.
It is generally accepted that a single cigarette reduces ones life between 7 and 11 minutes. I would like to know the reduction in life for one ULH flight. We know the radiation dose at FL350 is 0.003 millisievirts per hour. There are other health hazards in addition to radiation for long duty periods.
It is generally accepted that a single cigarette reduces ones life between 7 and 11 minutes. I would like to know the reduction in life for one ULH flight. We know the radiation dose at FL350 is 0.003 millisievirts per hour. There are other health hazards in addition to radiation for long duty periods.
I think you’re correct Kiwi. The days of the legacy terms and conditions are on the way out. How anyone can justify the pay that a SO gets on an A380 is beyond me. Sure, pay your Captain and FO reasonable salaries, but the dude in the back is merely a seat warmer, he doesn’t need $180k a year.
The pilots have a lot up their sleeve. If it was that easy to setup a crewing company to bypass the EA then why haven’t the company done it yet?
Look, the execs have always hated the pilots. Bunch of overpaid huff ‘n’ puffs! Always have.
But they will always take the path that achieves their end with the least risk.
Even GD said words to that affect some time ago.
There is an open EA.
Do you think it wise to start on an obviously very inflammatory path with your pilots with an open EA?
The Board would quite rightly be asking AJ to explain himself!
Oh that’s right because they hate the pilots!
Look, the execs have always hated the pilots. Bunch of overpaid huff ‘n’ puffs! Always have.
But they will always take the path that achieves their end with the least risk.
Even GD said words to that affect some time ago.
There is an open EA.
Do you think it wise to start on an obviously very inflammatory path with your pilots with an open EA?
The Board would quite rightly be asking AJ to explain himself!
Oh that’s right because they hate the pilots!