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QANTAS long haul EBA

Old 18th Dec 2018, 09:06
  #201 (permalink)  
 
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Sounds like most elections doesn’t it? You vote the way you feel and then next time an election rolls around you can vote differently or the same. Between elections you are stuck with the elected outcome.

Pretty standard stuff.
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Old 18th Dec 2018, 12:16
  #202 (permalink)  
 
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Or if you are not going to like the result, simply raise the threshold.

How anyone can argue that a majority of members (ie greater than 50%) can not achieve change has me completely bewildered.

And when an organisation behaves this way, it shouldn’t be surprised if it loses membership support over the long term.
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Old 19th Dec 2018, 02:37
  #203 (permalink)  
 
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Great start by the new president . Quoting the company line on fuel saving etc etc. I thought it was an email from flight ops Here go ago again .No wonder there is a break away group whom wants to sit in on negotiations to keep an eye on what’s going on.
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Old 19th Dec 2018, 03:07
  #204 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Danny104 View Post
Great start by the new president . Quoting the company line on fuel saving etc etc. I thought it was an email from flight ops Here go ago again .No wonder there is a break away group whom wants to sit in on negotiations to keep an eye on what’s going on.
Great start by Danny104. Creating a new login to make the QPA seem like it has more members...
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Old 19th Dec 2018, 06:49
  #205 (permalink)  
 
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Word is he has higher ambitions than the previous Ex-President who is now working with the Company. I am sure Qantas Pilots are not keen to sacrifice Terms and Conditions(even more than EA9) in exchange for someone else's career.
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Old 19th Dec 2018, 07:01
  #206 (permalink)  
 
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Yeah bus driver, maybe they could embark on another futile job security campaign and spend millions of dollars on lawyers to get nowherre instead!
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Old 19th Dec 2018, 08:03
  #207 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Justin. Beaver View Post
Yeah bus driver, maybe they could embark on another futile job security campaign and spend millions of dollars on lawyers to get nowherre instead!
Quite right Justin, let his blind ambition be the guiding light.
If Qantas pilots cannot lever a sustained, demonstrated and growing pilot shortage then they ought ask why not?
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Old 19th Dec 2018, 08:06
  #208 (permalink)  
 
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There is no shortage of mainline applicants. Including many from Cathay, virgin and other competitors.

While mainline attrition (non retirement) remains at less than 1 %, I don’t see a whole lot of shortage leverage for mainline.
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Old 19th Dec 2018, 08:57
  #209 (permalink)  
 
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There has never been a shortage of applicants.
Suitable applicants however......
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Old 19th Dec 2018, 09:34
  #210 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Justin. Beaver View Post
There is no shortage of mainline applicants. Including many from Cathay, virgin and other competitors.

While mainline attrition (non retirement) remains at less than 1 %, I don’t see a whole lot of shortage leverage for mainline.


As was stated repeatedly the shortage is being keenly felt all the way up the line, but QF 'mainline' will feel it last.Rest assured IR know there is a problem of supply at the prices they are used to offering.
As you state, Cathay and Virgin are losing pilots too. Where will they and at what price will they secure adequate supply?
Of course there is no shortage if one ignores the cacophony of noise from China, where a 737 Captain can lever themselves contracts at USD$600,000.
US Airline pilots are seeing sustained upwards movement in remuneration, ignoring that too, ignoring the globalised supply argument and perhaps viewing the world from Coward street in the myopic way management would hope, could lead one to believe there is no shortage. Can you confidently assume that 'attrition rates are less than 1%' By the way what is the source of that comment? HR?

https://www.businessinsider.com.au/airlines-pilot-shortage-cancelled-routes-2018-8?r=US&IR=T
The US is facing a serious shortage of airline pilots


There has never been a shortage of applicants.
Suitable applicants however......
The intersection of demand and supply is perhaps the one 'law' of economics worth remembering: More supply is induced when price rises, thereby clearing a market. QF know this.
That is why they are desperate and will spend no expense to preserve a status quo. That status quo is simply not sustainable.

Ask around, many airline management are already re-thinking their relationship with the pilot workforce. A reasonable work life balance, remuneration commensurate with responsibility and the skill set are not foreign concepts.
Unfortunately, where the entire relationship with pilots of airlines like Qantas fails, is that their entire edifice is built on the underlying, albeit erroneous assumption of unlimited supply.

Ask yourself why would QF set up a 'cadet school' Ask why they are quietly establishing a narrative to expand the beach head for foreign pilots, ask yourself why they persist with expanding a business that at best is a poor substitute for what they dream of replacing. Their model is adversarial, it knows no other way. Operating revenue without operating crew is a very novel concept.

Smarter people in the room worked out that pilots are strategic assets.
QF will like everything else be late to yet another party, but like the first 787 for QF was heralded (pun intended) as some sort of world first when JQ operated 11 of them and the world over 500, QF will belatedly turn up to this party too.
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Old 19th Dec 2018, 09:41
  #211 (permalink)  
 
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I don’t believe any pilot shortage is being felt in mainline due to insufficient suitable applicants or that will be the case anytime in the foreseeable future. 500 or 600k China contracts have been on offer for a few years now and there has been virtually zero take up by mainline pilota. I heard of one 738 skipper returning early from such a contract. Until mainline attrition actually starts to rise and causes a shortage in mainline, there is no leverage possibility in respect to the mainline eba.
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Old 19th Dec 2018, 10:01
  #212 (permalink)  
 
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I heard of one 738 skipper returning early from such a contract. Until mainline attrition actually starts to rise and causes a shortage in mainline, there is no leverage possibility in respect to the mainline eba.
A sample of one pilot?

Might need a bigger sample as Australian exceptionalism aside, pilots are a globalised commodity. Isn't the campus a place of knowledge?
Might want a more robust sample before generalising that Australia is somehow immune. Ask your masters at the subsidiaries how many qualified applicants they receive, ask about the other entities.
They will quietly confirm that there is not the supply there once was.

You may be right, pilots in Australia may choose to ignore the global demographic elements at play in the structural shortage.
Perhaps Elon Musk can deliver a driver less aircraft by 2020, when apparently living on Mars will be commonplace!
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Old 19th Dec 2018, 10:06
  #213 (permalink)  
 
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I provided an example of one early returnee to illustrate that the 500-600k China contracts may not be all they’re cracked up to be. If you have data to show a significant attrition of mainline pilots to these contracts then please provide it. As far as I know, it is insignificant from mainline.

As for other subsidiaries, from what I know jetstar pilot numbers are not short. I can’t speak for the other subsidiaries but this thread is about mainline EBAs, not subsidiary EBAs. I don’t see how an alleged shortage in Network or QLink is going to assist in leverage in the long haul eba that is not experiencing any supply shortage.
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Old 19th Dec 2018, 20:53
  #214 (permalink)  
 
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Justin,
I am sure the pilots would rather have FWA negotiate on their behalf than the current team. It was much better outcome. The Negotiating team is there for and behalf of the members not themselves! Simple! Chinese Contracts are not worth the paper they are written on. I am glad I am retired.
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Old 19th Dec 2018, 20:55
  #215 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by busdriver007 View Post
Justin,
I am sure the pilots would rather have FWA negotiate on their behalf than the current team. It was much better outcome. The Negotiating team is there for and behalf of the members not themselves! Simple! Chinese Contracts are not worth the paper they are written on. I am glad I am retired.
Well said.
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Old 19th Dec 2018, 22:39
  #216 (permalink)  
 
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from what I know jetstar pilot numbers are not short
Ba ha ha ha ha
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Old 19th Dec 2018, 23:05
  #217 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by busdriver007 View Post
Justin,
I am sure the pilots would rather have FWA negotiate on their behalf than the current team. It was much better outcome. The Negotiating team is there for and behalf of the members not themselves! Simple! Chinese Contracts are not worth the paper they are written on. I am glad I am retired.
The problem with this line of thinking is that FWC specifically declined to insert new type terms and conditions into the determination. I think it’s safe to assume they would do so again for 777/A350. That leaves a negotiated outclme as the only option for new type terms and conditions.
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Old 19th Dec 2018, 23:09
  #218 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by busdriver007 View Post
Justin,
I am sure the pilots would rather have FWA negotiate on their behalf than the current team. It was much better outcome. The Negotiating team is there for and behalf of the members not themselves! Simple! Chinese Contracts are not worth the paper they are written on. I am glad I am retired.
The Fair Work Commission does not negotiate agreements.
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Old 20th Dec 2018, 01:49
  #219 (permalink)  
 
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Justin, they already did and it was between B767 and A330 rates on the LH agreement. Maybe some reading is in order.
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Old 20th Dec 2018, 02:38
  #220 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by busdriver007 View Post
Justin, they already did and it was between B767 and A330 rates on the LH agreement. Maybe some reading is in order.
I think you need to do some reading.

Application by Australian and International Pilots Association [2013] FWCFB 317 (17 January 2013)

Paragraph 349: “we think it better to leave the matters relating to the B787 issue for Qantas and AIPA to address in negotiations for a replacement agreement, when the likelihood of the introduction of B787 aircraft into Qantas’ operations is clearer.”

As I said, the FWC specifically declined to determine terms and conditions on an unordered aircraft. I doubt they’d do differently on an unordered 777/350.
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