Pilot shortage
I think a number of airlines down here have found Direct Entry Command a spin of the roulette wheel. It sounds really appealing for management. But for all the great operators who come in and add spine, there are many who tax the training system or cause a heap of other problems.
Not adjusting to the company culture and rebelling against it seems the most common problem. Coming to L Cost after a 'premium' carrier creates a challenge to adapt to the DIY environment. Some people cope and thrive and a few certainly do not. By far the preference is to promote from within.
Not adjusting to the company culture and rebelling against it seems the most common problem. Coming to L Cost after a 'premium' carrier creates a challenge to adapt to the DIY environment. Some people cope and thrive and a few certainly do not. By far the preference is to promote from within.
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The seniority argument is so short sighted and perpetuated by those that benefit from it. It is probably the single biggest barrier to improved conditions in this country.
I do concede, however, that it is probably necessary because Australian pilots demonstrate time and time again that they will screw their colleagues for their own benefit, or their sons, or brothers etc. Hence seniority is the worst possible system, except for all the others.
Edit: The counter to the drawbacks of seniority is a strong unionised workforce that ensures Companies can't take advantage of the inherent stability that seniority provides management. Anyone seen a strong unionised workforce around here lately??
I do concede, however, that it is probably necessary because Australian pilots demonstrate time and time again that they will screw their colleagues for their own benefit, or their sons, or brothers etc. Hence seniority is the worst possible system, except for all the others.
Edit: The counter to the drawbacks of seniority is a strong unionised workforce that ensures Companies can't take advantage of the inherent stability that seniority provides management. Anyone seen a strong unionised workforce around here lately??
Seniority is only a benefit to the Employer, NOT the employee. It creates a captive workforce-which can never benefit anyone but the employer. Although it has some benefits e.g. transparency the negatives definitely outweigh the positives especially regarding Terms and Conditions. How many other 'professions' are promoted purely on seniority.?? Another stupidity of the industry, especially in Australia is pay based on weight. Given that the larger aircraft generally do less challenging flying than the smaller ones fleet pay is a much more logical way to go. It stops people changing types purely for monetary value. A commander on a 330/340/777/787/744/380 have EQUAL responsibility and should receive equal remuneration. Pay should be narrow-body and wide-body. Before anyone accuses me of personal bias I have zero interest in returning to an Australian airline, these are merely my observations from outside the petrie dish!.
Generally, wide bodies, other than the costs/logistics operating equation, will send many to an early grave from circadian disruption. I am sure an EK participator may shed some light on these effect in modern aviation.
Narrow body, (in Aus) can been hectic although less back of clock, augmented operations through multiple time zones.
It all adds up. We need to remember, that as a vocation, we have a finite window to earn income. Medical standards or lack of them can knock your career on the head earlier these days. There is much risk in becoming a pilot. Little, if any, of it borne by the companies.
Look at insurance premiums for pilots. Actuaries know the real risks. Premium remuneration for this work should relate to the massive risk we take making it our primary income stream.
Narrow body, (in Aus) can been hectic although less back of clock, augmented operations through multiple time zones.
It all adds up. We need to remember, that as a vocation, we have a finite window to earn income. Medical standards or lack of them can knock your career on the head earlier these days. There is much risk in becoming a pilot. Little, if any, of it borne by the companies.
Look at insurance premiums for pilots. Actuaries know the real risks. Premium remuneration for this work should relate to the massive risk we take making it our primary income stream.
Popgun hit the nail on the head. I'm one if those young captains that a lot of Asian and ME carriers are keen to get their hands on and for reasons of keeping my family happy and the rule of law if nothing else, I'm not in the least bit interested in upping sticks from Oz.
Clear to land said:
Why is it so many have lost the capacity to see nuance in reasoned debate. Seniority doesn't come in to play until you are deemed meritorious. Ours is one of the only industries that has BOTH merit and seniority. You might not say the above CTL if you were stuck in the RHS of some dodgy state owned carrier that kept on promoting the bosses mates over you.
Of course we would all agree there are downsides to the seniority system for our EBA negotiations and other reasons.
Nevertheless under a seniority system I always felt comfortable as an FO to stand up to management when I felt that they were taking the piss. I could defend my actions in the light of the regulator and company policy and given that I maintained a good standard of merit, the command came when my number came up simple as that.
Seniority has afforded me and my clients a level of unconflicted safety that allows all and sundry to go home to our wives and children each night. Its not the only way to keep things safe but as you say yourself it adds a great degree of "transparency" to the system and that comforts me very much.
Clear to land said:
Seniority is only a benefit to the employer NOT the employee
Of course we would all agree there are downsides to the seniority system for our EBA negotiations and other reasons.
Nevertheless under a seniority system I always felt comfortable as an FO to stand up to management when I felt that they were taking the piss. I could defend my actions in the light of the regulator and company policy and given that I maintained a good standard of merit, the command came when my number came up simple as that.
Seniority has afforded me and my clients a level of unconflicted safety that allows all and sundry to go home to our wives and children each night. Its not the only way to keep things safe but as you say yourself it adds a great degree of "transparency" to the system and that comforts me very much.
Last edited by Willie Nelson; 5th Dec 2016 at 02:16. Reason: Incapacity to spell.
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Popgun hit the nail on the head. I'm one if those young captains that a lot of Asian and ME carriers are keen to get their hands on and for reasons of keeping my family happy and the rule of law if nothing else, I'm not in the least bit interested in upping sticks from Oz.
Clear to land said:
Why is it so many have lost the capacity to see nuance in reasoned debate. Seniority doesn't come in to play until you are deemed meritorious. Ours is one of the only industries that has BOTH merit and seniority. You might not say the above CTL if you were stuck in the RHS of some dodgy state owned carrier that kept on promoting the bosses mates over you.
Of course we would all agree there are downsides to the seniority system for our EBA negotiations and other reasons.
Nevertheless under a seniority system I always felt comfortable as an FO to stand up to management when I felt that they were taking the piss. I could defend my actions in the light of the regulator and company policy and given that I maintained a good standard of merit, the command came when my number came up simple as that.
Seniority has afforded me and my clients a level of unconflicted safety that allows all and sundry to go home to our wives and children each night. Its not the only way to keep things safe but as you say yourself it adds a great degree of "transparency" to the system and that comforts me very much.
Clear to land said:
Why is it so many have lost the capacity to see nuance in reasoned debate. Seniority doesn't come in to play until you are deemed meritorious. Ours is one of the only industries that has BOTH merit and seniority. You might not say the above CTL if you were stuck in the RHS of some dodgy state owned carrier that kept on promoting the bosses mates over you.
Of course we would all agree there are downsides to the seniority system for our EBA negotiations and other reasons.
Nevertheless under a seniority system I always felt comfortable as an FO to stand up to management when I felt that they were taking the piss. I could defend my actions in the light of the regulator and company policy and given that I maintained a good standard of merit, the command came when my number came up simple as that.
Seniority has afforded me and my clients a level of unconflicted safety that allows all and sundry to go home to our wives and children each night. Its not the only way to keep things safe but as you say yourself it adds a great degree of "transparency" to the system and that comforts me very much.
For the record, Clear to Land's assertion that promotion in our industry is based purely on Seniority does not apply in QF.
One must pass muster through the Command Assesment Committee before actually having the experience, skill and mettle to successfully complete the Command training program.
Having the seniority for Command and actually achieving it are two seperate things.
One must pass muster through the Command Assesment Committee before actually having the experience, skill and mettle to successfully complete the Command training program.
Having the seniority for Command and actually achieving it are two seperate things.
Also for the record J* has a Command Upgrade program that a person has to go through before they can commence command training. Its not compulsory, but you don't get to start command training unless you have successfully completed it. In other words, you have to want it before you can get it, in addition to your position on the seniority list.
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For the record, Clear to Land's assertion that promotion in our industry is based purely on Seniority does not apply in QF.
One must pass muster through the Command Assesment Committee before actually having the experience, skill and mettle to successfully complete the Command training program.
Having the seniority for Command and actually achieving it are two seperate things.
One must pass muster through the Command Assesment Committee before actually having the experience, skill and mettle to successfully complete the Command training program.
Having the seniority for Command and actually achieving it are two seperate things.
Pilot shortage or no pilot shortage, it will have no effect on our terms and conditions in Australia unless we remove our dependence on seniority. The pros are of course horizontal movement of pilots between airlines. And the cons are of course well known.
Only the departure of pilots in large numbers will make a difference, and this will never happen so long as a return means starting again at the bottom.
If we make no changes to the way we operate, Asia Pac could need 2 million pilots in the next 3 years, threads like this would continue to appear, and yet it would make no difference to us here in Oz.
Only the departure of pilots in large numbers will make a difference, and this will never happen so long as a return means starting again at the bottom.
If we make no changes to the way we operate, Asia Pac could need 2 million pilots in the next 3 years, threads like this would continue to appear, and yet it would make no difference to us here in Oz.
Haven't been here for a while but utter rubbish.
When I was an Ansett F/O there were clowns who came back to Australia and were training captains at Virgin Blue for less pay than an Ansett F/O.
Now, I'm still south 50, can retire though enjoy the $500,000 AUD a year at 15% tax. Remove seniority ( and standards ) and Filipino and Australian pilots would flock to do my job at a considerable cheaper rate.
The enemy of Australian pilots is not seniority but other Australian pilots. Have a look at the first 30 to 50 on the seniority list at Virgin perhaps, or the Impulse guys.
When I was an Ansett F/O there were clowns who came back to Australia and were training captains at Virgin Blue for less pay than an Ansett F/O
The enemy of Australian pilots is not seniority but other Australian pilots. Have a look at the first 30 to 50 on the seniority list at Virgin perhaps, or the Impulse guys.
To make it easier, without debating the Ansett business model, politics nor the very good luck of Virgin, don't forget the cheap-charlies at Virgin Blue were undercutting QF International and Domestic pilots too. And just to remind you, First Officers at the incumbent Australian carriers were better paid than training captains at Virgin.
It is comical, that now these low paid pilots live in hope of a pilot shortage and spray the age old BS that it's seniority that's keeping them in a lower middle class. A no-seniority industry would erode their wages further as massively cashed up expatriates could come home and under cut their jobs as east coast Australian cities would be a lifestyle base. I bet the QF guys aren't putting forward this absurd philosophy.
I don't get your jealousy jibe. As a rule, VB pilots don't live in the choice Australian suburbs I would, nor send their kids to the choice schools I would, nor blow a 100k on a holiday or 10k on a dinner. I know for many it's a bit of a struggle.
But yes, the QF guys I do envy in some ways, but good luck to them.
It is comical, that now these low paid pilots live in hope of a pilot shortage and spray the age old BS that it's seniority that's keeping them in a lower middle class. A no-seniority industry would erode their wages further as massively cashed up expatriates could come home and under cut their jobs as east coast Australian cities would be a lifestyle base. I bet the QF guys aren't putting forward this absurd philosophy.
I don't get your jealousy jibe. As a rule, VB pilots don't live in the choice Australian suburbs I would, nor send their kids to the choice schools I would, nor blow a 100k on a holiday or 10k on a dinner. I know for many it's a bit of a struggle.
But yes, the QF guys I do envy in some ways, but good luck to them.
Still typically sensitive there. I'm sure you've paid off that endorsement you had to buy for the job buzzy, but mortgaged to the hilt out there in Brown's Plains must give Virgin a GA feel, if your camel-brown pants don't.
I'd do your job for a golf membership.
I'd do your job for a golf membership.
And I wonder why I bother reading this forum ............
What a disgrace!
PROFESSIONAL! NOT!!!
Slam click!
What a disgrace!
PROFESSIONAL! NOT!!!
Slam click!
Do you think a self-funded endorsement is more professional than a legacy carrier investment in training?
Perhaps choose your words more discerningly.
Bogan aviators……..
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I have to agree with that. I don't like seniority either but if you were to remove it watch all the ME drivers flock back and take any job on offer at the lowest rate. It would be a disaster.