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Qantas Recruitment

Old 29th Aug 2018, 08:57
  #1821 (permalink)  
 
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3rd hand from someone who recently interviewed, they intend to exhaust the current hold pool before recruiting again.
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Old 29th Aug 2018, 21:26
  #1822 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by AerocatS2A View Post
3rd hand from someone who recently interviewed, they intend to exhaust the current hold pool before recruiting again.
Mmmm. Sound planning. I use the same technique with fuel - Unless I’ve got none, I don’t add any. After all; you can put fuel in a jet, or access pilots any time you want. Much like ‘just in time’ recruiting, this type of planning ends in a massive cluster-fuk. At the very least.



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Old 29th Aug 2018, 22:39
  #1823 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by JPJP View Post


Mmmm. Sound planning. I use the same technique with fuel - Unless I’ve got none, I don’t add any. After all; you can put fuel in a jet, or access pilots any time you want. Much like ‘just in time’ recruiting, this type of planning ends in a massive cluster-fuk. At the very least.



I could be wrong but QF Group is very much onboard the Cadet/Trainee bandwagon. I'm sure their intentions are to purely recruit through subsidiary companies with a combination of DE/Cadet/Trainee which will ensure a flow from Subsidiaries to Mainline.
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Old 29th Aug 2018, 22:50
  #1824 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by JPJP View Post


Mmmm. Sound planning. I use the same technique with fuel - Unless I’ve got none, I don’t add any. After all; you can put fuel in a jet, or access pilots any time you want. Much like ‘just in time’ recruiting, this type of planning ends in a massive cluster-fuk. At the very least.



I don't think you can read that much into a third hand account of what someone said during an interview. I doubt they went into specific detail of their fuel reserve policy (to use your analogy).
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Old 29th Aug 2018, 23:17
  #1825 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Brakerider View Post
I could be wrong but QF Group is very much onboard the Cadet/Trainee bandwagon. I'm sure their intentions are to purely recruit through subsidiary companies with a combination of DE/Cadet/Trainee which will ensure a flow from Subsidiaries to Mainline.
However, by doing this they burden themselves with a massive training program as they snake everyone through the now extensive subsidiary ecosystem. This complex of systems is now a dis-economy of scale where pilot skills can no longer be viewed as a disposable commodity, and actually consider incentivizing it with as a genuine career path.

The ultimate solution will probably need to rationalisation and significant reduction in Domestic group complexity to a couple of core common fleets and long term similar pay & career structures as a retention strategy to enable them to keep the aircraft flying. The game of playing one group off against another is now looming as a very large training liability. Until this is understood and internalised as a truth at the most senior levels of the company & Board expect expect a continuous rolling crisis with pilot numbers Domestically across all operations.
Airlines seeing record numbers of passengers but fewer flights.

Airlines seeing record numbers of passengers but fewer flights

Airlines seeing record numbers of passengers but fewer flights

In 2017, the number of passengers who flew domestic U.S. flights broke all previous records for the third straight year, and 2018 appears poised to smash the record yet again.

But even as airlines filled planes with 741 million domestic passengers in 2017, according to the Bureau of Transportation Statistics (BTS), they offered 18.5% fewer flights than at the peak in 2005, a result of the carriers' shift toward larger aircraft in order to reduce costs and toward denser seat configurations to increase revenue.

Between 2007 and 2017, while the number of domestic U.S. air travelers increased by 9.2%, the average number of passengers per flight jumped from 69 to 91, BTS statistics show.

Upgauging -- industry parlance for using larger aircraft -- has been an economic winner for mainline airlines, and it has helped some regional carriers survive a pilot shortage that forced them to drastically increase pilot pay.

Seth Kaplan, managing partner for the newsletter Airline Weekly, said, "The economics on the cost side always favor a larger aircraft." Overall, he noted that there is less pilot cost per passenger. Also, "Upgauging also saves on engine maintenance and airport fees. There are just powerful incentives to try and get more seats per flights."

Larger aircraft also offer benefits to travelers. For example, few flyers would miss having to duck their heads as they walked the aisles of small regional aircraft.

But trading more flights on smaller planes for fewer flights on larger ones can also come at a cost to travelers, most notably in the form of decreased connectivity in smaller markets and a general reduction in route frequencies.

Faye Malarkey Black, president of the Regional Airline Association (RAA), said, "An airport can gain seats in a way that actually reduces meaningful connectivity. In smaller markets, in particular, it's critical to right-size the aircraft to the passenger base. Frequency and departure options are maintained through use of right-size aircraft."





Upgauging and seat densification have been a common theme across the industry. JetBlue, for example, used to fly only 100-seat Embraer E-190s and 150-seat Airbus A320s. But the carrier took its first delivery of the larger Airbus A321 in 2013, according to the website Planespotters.net, and now has 58 A321s in its fleet, with configurations ranging from 159 to 200 seats.

In the meantime, JetBlue is also in the process of adding two rows to its A320s, boosting the seat count from 150 to 162. And in the years ahead, the carrier plans to replace its E-190s with Airbus A220-300s, which are built to carry between 130 and 160 passengers.

Similarly, at the end of 2007, the Southwest fleet primarily consisted of 137-seat Boeing 737 variants, along with 25 122-seat Boeing 737-500. By the end of last year, Southwest had phased out the 737-500s, added 175-seat 737-800s to its mix, and densified those 137-seat 737-700s to 143 seats.

The Big 3 legacy U.S. carriers Delta, United and American have also upgauged their mainline fleets. But perhaps the most dramatic changes have come in the regional fleets owned both by the Big 3 and by the regional airlines themselves.

According to the RAA, the total number of 36- to 50-seat aircraft in U.S. regional airline fleets declined by half between 2008 and 2017, dropping the portion of the regional fleet those planes comprise from 75% to just more than 40%. Meanwhile, during that same time frame, regional carriers more than doubled their inventory of two-class jets, which seat between 65 and 90 passengers.

According to the trade organization Airlines for America, in 2005, 45% of U.S. domestic flights were operated on aircraft with 50 seats or less. This year that figure is down to 22%.

Symbolic of the upgauging of regional jets was the retirement by American Airlines' regional subsidiary Piedmont in July of its last Bombardier Dash 8 turboprop plane. With that retirement, turboprops are no longer in the fleet of any of the Big 3, according to Brett Snyder, who writes the Cranky Flier blog.

The gradual draw-down of smaller regional aircraft is benefitting consumers, said Mark Drusch, a former Delta senior vice president who is now a vice president in the aviation wing of the consultancy ICF.

Jets in the 70-to-90-seat range, he said, have wider seats and larger lavatories than smaller regional aircraft. They also have full overhead bins and high enough interiors for passengers to stand straight.

"From a comfort perspective, you just have more space," Drusch said.

Larger regional jets also enable airlines to offer a broader product range, including first-class cabins and more basic economy seats, he added.

For regional carriers, which were forced by the nationwide pilot shortage to institute a spate of substantial pay raises and sign-on bonuses beginning in 2015, upgauging has served as something of a lifeline by reducing the aggregate number of pilots needed, said Airline Weekly's Kap-lan.

But as the total number of flights has dropped across the U.S. domestic system, reductions in connectivity have followed.

According to an Airline Weekly analysis of data from the analytics company Diio Mi, the number of domestic city pairs serviced daily by U.S. carriers dropped 11.4% between 2007 and 2017.

Typically, said the RAA's Black, it's the small markets that feel the most impact when airlines reduce departures.

A total of 256 U.S. commercial airports saw a reduction in departures of 10% or more between 2013 and 2017, the RAA said, and 20 airports lost service altogether.

"Increases in seats are practically meaningless if destination options and departures are not also increasing, or at least holding," Black wrote in an email. "Otherwise, a flight with more seats but taking off less often or to fewer destinations is less convenient and less likely to meet individualized traveler needs."

Even with upgauging and the pilot shortage, the news for small U.S. airports has improved somewhat in recent years. Since 2013, the pace of the reductions in total domestic flights has slowed measurably, having dropped less than 2% during that period. Meanwhile, driven by the potential to reap larger profits on routes with less competition, the Big 3 carriers, especially United, have begun placing more focus on regional flying.

Upgauging isn't the only cause of the reduction in domestic flight counts over the past 13 years. Drusch noted that industry consolidation, which brought the number of primary U.S. carriers down from 11 in 2006 to four today, led to the closure of midsize hubs in markets such as Cleveland, Memphis, Pittsburgh and Cincinnati.

Kaplan said consolidation has also enabled carriers to reduce frequencies on some routes.

"When you don't have as many competitors, it's easy for an airline to get away with having fewer frequencies," he said.

Correction: Seth Kaplan, managing partner for the newsletter Airline Weekly, said the economics of larger aircraft led to less pilot cost per passenger. He was misquoted in an earlier version of this article as saying it led to less cost per pilot.
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Old 30th Aug 2018, 00:49
  #1826 (permalink)  
Keg

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Originally Posted by Flyboy1987 View Post
Keg, any reason why the application portal isn’t just left open?

So that applicants who meet mins/people who wish to change employers/ former applicants with a defer period now over can reapply?

Why does qf recruitment have to be such a big secret?.
All good questions. Sadly I can’t provide any firm answers. I suspect that having not recruited for so long they’re now caught in this cycle of opening and closing recruitment. I know of a few quality applicants who didn’t have the requirements in September 2016 but did early2017 and we’ve lost them to other carriers.

Personally I’d do it differently by leaving it open and then every two months or so re-ordering the priority of who I want to look at based upon new or updated applicants but being up front with each individual that we aren’t going to be looking at you for (perhaps) 6 months. But I don’t run pilot recruitment.
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Old 30th Aug 2018, 00:53
  #1827 (permalink)  
Keg

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Originally Posted by JPJP View Post


Mmmm. Sound planning. I use the same technique with fuel - Unless I’ve got none, I don’t add any. After all; you can put fuel in a jet, or access pilots any time you want. Much like ‘just in time’ recruiting, this type of planning ends in a massive cluster-fuk. At the very least.



Taking it WAY too literally! Of course they’ll open up recruitment again before they’ve completely exhausted the hold file. However. Suspect next time they’ll open it up when their are less on hold than they did this time. Of course they also got snookered because the intake courses basically halved in size due to training capacity. So it seems they could have held off a few extra months before starting again in 2018 but didn’t know that at the time.
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Old 30th Aug 2018, 09:00
  #1828 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2016
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Originally Posted by Brakerider View Post
I could be wrong but QF Group is very much onboard the Cadet/Trainee bandwagon. I'm sure their intentions are to purely recruit through subsidiary companies with a combination of DE/Cadet/Trainee which will ensure a flow from Subsidiaries to Mainline.
Yeah we’ll see how that goes. They treated their last batch of cadets soooo well.
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Old 31st Aug 2018, 18:11
  #1829 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Keg View Post


Taking it WAY too literally! Of course they’ll open up recruitment again before they’ve completely exhausted the hold file. However. Suspect next time they’ll open it up when their are less on hold than they did this time. Of course they also got snookered because the intake courses basically halved in size due to training capacity. So it seems they could have held off a few extra months before starting again in 2018 but didn’t know that at the time.

I was being a smartarse ...... mostly. Your post below reflects a competent and forward looking recruiting process. I don’t think Qantas will ever have difficulty recruiting pilots.

I see the challenge being the constant feeding of the entry level positions within the group (Dash 8 etc.). Regarding Alans cadet schemes - The fruit of his loins will take years to flower, and produce mini-Alans in pilot uniforms. He’ll be gone when the real shortage appears in Oz. His successor will find themselves saddled with a pilot problem, along with a massive requirement for CapEx on new aircraft.

Cheers

Personally I’d do it differently by leaving it open and then every two months or so re-ordering the priority of who I want to look at based upon new or updated applicants but being up front with each individual that we aren’t going to be looking at you for (perhaps) 6 months. But I don’t run pilot recruitment.
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Old 1st Sep 2018, 01:21
  #1830 (permalink)  
 
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almost think they have plenty after interviewing 260 plus internals. They could just rely on QLink JQ EFA to keep recruiting for their own operation.
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Old 1st Sep 2018, 04:13
  #1831 (permalink)  
Keg

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Yes but that’d be a spectacularly dumb move! It’s good to get people with perspectives and experiences external to ‘the group’.

I’m all for giving opportunities to those within the group but let me throw a scenario out there.

Someone does a cadetship at age 18. A couple of years later they’re a Dash 8 F/O. At age 25 they’re a Dash 8 Captain and a year or two later they’re now part of the hiring process for the regional. So without any knowledge of long haul (or short haul) jet operations, what it involves or even any significant industry experience (7 years in a regional is hardly ‘significant industry experience’), they’re now hiring people into a regional. People here seem to be suggesting that this is the only pool of candidates mainline should be looking at? No freaking way.

I’d like to be taking people from other airlines, people from the RAAF, people who have been C&T on Dash’s and other small turboprops for smaller operators. The wider the level of experience (with experiences across technical, management, etc) that comes into mainline the less chance of it being insular and inward looking and ultimately that builds strength.

So sure give opportunities for progression into mainline from within the group but let’s not consider it a fait accompli. Just because you wear the same uniform or work within the same ‘group’ doesn’t mean that you’ve necessarily demonstrated that you can take the next step. That sort of entitled attitude has already brought a few S/Os undone.

In fact, were they not so desperate to retain crew in QLink and the other group entities they wouldn’t even be setting aside as many positions as they have so let’s not kid ourselves that the Qantas group is offering these positions out of their desire to offer pilots ‘progression’ within the group. It’s a means to an end. Don’t confuse that with you having demonstrated the required standard to progress or you ‘deserving’ to be in mainline. You deserve nothing more than the opportunity to show your stuff and if you’re good enough and better than the next candidate (internal or external), you’re in.
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Old 1st Sep 2018, 11:53
  #1832 (permalink)  
 
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Yeh good points Keg especially the last paragraph... it's all about keeping the money-earners (aircraft) moving so they can keep earning the $$$.
Pilots? They're a liability as Jimmy-bow-tie once slipped out by mistake at an AGM many years back.

The key phrase is though, something you said earlier:
and we’ve lost them to other carriers.
Yes, QF may be gloating that they have many applicants but those applicants now have many options, depending on their lifestyle choice or needs. It's a global market and QF isn't "top of the pops" anymore. This availability of choice for the pilots hasn't happened in decades and it's obvious many HR departments & Airline managements are struggling with the shift in power (so is AIPA and AFAP!!!). The QF Group will continue to lose applicants to other airlines, until they match what's on offer with the airlines they've 'lost them to" and also clean up the "divide & conquer" EBA mess that is Sunnies v Eastern; Jetstar v Mainline; Network v Cobham etc etc etc (Engineering is the same, sadly).
I don't know where people have their heads but they're certainly not seeing what I'm seeing or reading the journals I am because there's a DESPERATE shortage of pilots everywhere now.
Name a continent and I'll give you half a dozen airlines immediately screaming for crew. Legacy carriers are now in the mix too. It's not rocket science... pay more $$$! Share you Managerial Bonuses around, to those at the coal-face instead of what amounts to blackmail bonuses.
Perth is a classic example that shows the shortage well. When I fly in I see so many Skippers/Cobham/Network/VARA aircraft on the ground... and it's peak morning or afternoon time when they are meant to be flying. Heck QF even have their B747 running a domestic run each day (great for punters and yes I'm aware of the "training bottle-neck").

OPINION: Pilot shortage has no easy solution
Shame on them for wishing another downturn! What bastards to even think it and the realities of what happens to millions of families!

Last edited by Chocks Away; 1st Sep 2018 at 12:25.
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Old 2nd Sep 2018, 01:44
  #1833 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2018
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Originally Posted by sta5fhl View Post
Does anyone here have an idea of how many SO's Jetstar still need to recruit for the 787. I've noticed an entire cohort of cadets have just started training on the 787, with another round of cadets finishing late this year and then mid next year. Whats the likelihood of all SO positions being filled by these cadets, would future JQ cadets expect the A320?
The initial 787 SO cadets that were hired are coming close to their 3 years of service and thus will be able to bid to A320 FO. So these 20-30 positions will need to be filled by new SO cadet hires. In years gone by there have been split intakes of cadet A320 F/O and B787 SO. I believe that this will continue to be the case, unless the new FRMS (which has been due ‘in a couple of months’ for the past 4 years) dictates that many of the south East Asian routes we fly will require 3 crew, in which case the SO numbers will need to increase dramatically. Jetstar being Jetstar, I’m sure they will find a way to keep the routes 2 crew.

Either way way you will get a seniority number, which is all that really matters. Take the first thing Jetstar offers you. Sitting in the back of a 787 to Honolulu 2-3 times a month isn’t the worst job in the world.

One last point, I’m not sure if you are a Jetstar cadet or looking at getting a job externally but whatever you do, if you want to be in Australia DONT AGREE TO GO TO NEW ZEALAND, as there is no pathway to get back to Australia and even if you did you would have to go to the bottom of the seniority list. Many people have been caught out by this.


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Old 2nd Sep 2018, 02:50
  #1834 (permalink)  
 
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. Shame on them for wishing another downturn! What bastards to even think it and the realities of what happens to millions of families
This Pilot shortage was well on its way back in 07/08, then the GFC hit and it saved their bacon big time.

A downturn/correction Will happen again, who knows when though, and to what extent. I’d wager good money that it is being countined on to eventually help iron out the Pilot Shortage a little bit.
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Old 2nd Sep 2018, 03:27
  #1835 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by ExtraShot View Post


This Pilot shortage was well on its way back in 07/08, then the GFC hit and it saved their bacon big time.

The GFC was a definite factor, however, the ICAO moved to extend the mandated retirement age from 60 to 65 in Dec 2006, and the US implemented it in 2009. That is really what saved their bacon.

The industry response? Extend and pretend, capturing the value of the age extension through reduced training costs. Almost ZERO in the way of investment to overcome the demographic challenges that would inevitability occur. Demographics is about the closest thing there to a sure bet, there is no uncertainty about when someone will have a birthday at a particular age. You can model the best case outcome for a cohort to reach mandated retirement age with a good degree of accuracy.

Once again, extension to 67 is proposed, however, there is likely to be an exponential decline in pilots who can hold a medical post 65 and make it all the way to 67. There are going to be tiny incremental gains in pilot number should that come to pass. That is before the "will to continue" is taken into account.

Unfortunately for the managers, the demographic dividend is now about to become an enormous liability for which they are completely unprepared.
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Old 2nd Sep 2018, 04:45
  #1836 (permalink)  
 
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There is another factor which is going to come into play into a pilot shortage - an instructor shortage.

I have a mate who wants to do his MECIR as part of a student loans diploma and had his name down at 2 places for intakes this month, both have been delayed until next year due to lack of instructors for new intakes. This is happening while Asian Airlines continue to increase training in Australia demanding more instructors and 'taking them away' from training Australia students. This is without any real significant shortage at the regional's of applicants, now imagine every instructor who has the minimums for qlink applies and gets in. Unless something changes this will severly limit the number of people training.
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Old 2nd Sep 2018, 05:29
  #1837 (permalink)  
 
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Maybe charging 25k for an instructor rating needs to be addressed? Then paying another 6k for instrument instructor privaliges then 8k for multi training approval might be deterring people?

Oh and schools only paying you per flying hour and expecting you to man reception for free?

This is why nobody wants to instruct.
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Old 2nd Sep 2018, 07:20
  #1838 (permalink)  
 
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Unfortunately for the managers, the demographic dividend is now about to become an enormous liability for which they are completely unprepared.
With relationship models derived from a perception of unlimited supply, airline management were able to push otherwise internal costs (like training, car parking and indeed uniforms) at employees. Study of the Ryan air model of employee relationship details how much of that otherwise corporate overhead was pushed outside the cost centre.
The Ryan air template has been borrowed by new start and established airlines alike. It was argued by former CFO Qantas Gregg, that JQ was designed to drive competitive tensions ‘across the group’ and as it was modelled on the Ryan air template, as many costs including pilot training pushed at a potential employee unit cost fell. This trend has been part of the industry dynamic for over three decades but hidden in plain sight is the message that a significant departure in the employee employer relationship had surfaced. Airlines were to have very little sunk cost in pilots: pilots funded not only their CPL training but increasingly endorsements and bonding was the norm. Airlines invested in privatised training, thereby deriving a 'profit' from self funded applicants where previously, there was a sunk cost: endorsement of their company pilots.

In demographics is destiny. A sure bet but long tails. As CT correctly alludes to, it is very predictable yet takes a long time to feed through the economy.

As real wages fall and nominal outcomes (from contract negotiations) were limited in upside, slowly but surely the ‘signal’ sent to 'aspirational' pilots was that so much cost had to be borne with limited upside (financially) that the rational participants declined the ‘opportunity’ to commit huge funds to such a pursuit.For a country with a geographical landmass the size of Australia, this strategy was always eventually bound to struggle. Qantas is without doubt the largest employer and indeed remains an aspirational goal for pilots, however without significant improvement in real terms and conditions, whether it be a pilot academy with a nice little dose of corporate welfare, or skill shortage visas unless there is a real change to the relationship model, which includes remuneration the problem will continue to grow in magnitude.

Make no mistake Qantas are acutely aware of the magnitude of the shortage, they are attempting to induce more supply with another externality; more migration. The industry is a long way from addressing the real reduction in terms and conditions that has precipitated the last three decades.
The externality borne by GA and the community will eventually see a return to mean, whereby gradual improvements will signal more supply of pilots. With airline management focused on the next KPI until operating revenue decline noticeably, airlines will do everything before doing the right thing!
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Old 2nd Sep 2018, 07:34
  #1839 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Chocks Away View Post
Yeh good points Keg especially the last paragraph... it's all about keeping the money-earners (aircraft) moving so they can keep earning the $$$.
Pilots? They're a liability as Jimmy-bow-tie once slipped out by mistake at an AGM many years back.

The key phrase is though, something you said earlier:
Yes, QF may be gloating that they have many applicants but those applicants now have many options, depending on their lifestyle choice or needs. It's a global market and QF isn't "top of the pops" anymore. This availability of choice for the pilots hasn't happened in decades and it's obvious many HR departments & Airline managements are struggling with the shift in power (so is AIPA and AFAP!!!). The QF Group will continue to lose applicants to other airlines, until they match what's on offer with the airlines they've 'lost them to" and also clean up the "divide & conquer" EBA mess that is Sunnies v Eastern; Jetstar v Mainline; Network v Cobham etc etc etc (Engineering is the same, sadly).
I don't know where people have their heads but they're certainly not seeing what I'm seeing or reading the journals I am because there's a DESPERATE shortage of pilots everywhere now.
Name a continent and I'll give you half a dozen airlines immediately screaming for crew. Legacy carriers are now in the mix too. It's not rocket science... pay more $$$! Share you Managerial Bonuses around, to those at the coal-face instead of what amounts to blackmail bonuses.
Perth is a classic example that shows the shortage well. When I fly in I see so many Skippers/Cobham/Network/VARA aircraft on the ground... and it's peak morning or afternoon time when they are meant to be flying. Heck QF even have their B747 running a domestic run each day (great for punters and yes I'm aware of the "training bottle-neck").

OPINION: Pilot shortage has no easy solution
Shame on them for wishing another downturn! What bastards to even think it and the realities of what happens to millions of families!
Very Well said Chocks Away.
Global airline pay has increased dramatically and will continue to for experienced crew. It’s only going to get worse for airline executives. The US was a bloodbath post 9/11. Now US major airline pay exceeds that of QF and Cathay.
If you look at Ryanair, O Leary used to openly ridicule his flight crew whilst a steady supply kept knocking on his door.
He looks a fool now as pilot shortages cancel thousands of flights. He has even recognised the role of pilot unions . Joyce modelled Jetstar on Ryanair as Dixon’s servant. He may well pay to heed what has happened in Ryanair which despite the Prior Aggression pays far higher than Jetstar.
Economics is supply and demand. The peak retirement wave breaking globally will be greater than the effect of any potential downturn.
I don’t think the unions know how strong a position they are in. For current entrants they will ride a wave like the fortunate joiners around 1988/89. Either that or they can gain experience in any Qantas group entity and make lucrative global contracts work for them.
Regardless the pilot shortage is very real and getting worse.



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Old 2nd Sep 2018, 08:06
  #1840 (permalink)  
 
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The last 10 posts here at least have been so bang on correct I just shake might head at those in positions of power who still don’t think any of these things are an issue. I’m not so sure they have completely removed their heads from their backsides yet. To an extent they have but not enough.
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