Australia, New Zealand & the Pacific Airline and RPT Rumours & News in Australia, enZed and the Pacific

Qantas Recruitment

Old 23rd Feb 2018, 23:00
  #1141 (permalink)  
 
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When Red Q was announced with much fanfare, it seemed irrelevant that there was not a country, nor a base chosen other than 'somewhere in Asia', maybe Singapore, maybe Malaysia.

With Megaphone diplomacy Boston Bruce and the little chap announced JQ would have over 400 aircraft in Asia by 2020. JQ HK didn't meet the prima facie test of the Principal Place of Business criteria. He announced it anyway.

As it is with the death of investigative journalism, the rumour is reported as a given, little scrutiny is conducted and probing questions are discouraged as the advertising spend is vital for what is left of print media. As readership declines the power of any narrative control is lessened.

This idea in our summation is a response to a growing realisation that the shortage is real and sustained. Hastily cobbled together and ill thought out. Somewhere in there will be more corporate welfare.

However they need a new fleet and as far as pilots are concerned they are acknowledging that there is indeed a shortage. That is $20 million that won't be wasted on jollies and favourable press coverage for 'journalists' to go to Seatlle to pick up an aircraft that he describes as game changing, although he doesn't mention there are already 600 flying..
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Old 23rd Feb 2018, 23:14
  #1142 (permalink)  
 
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How many LAMEs also? They won’t screw them on $$ either as they do their present ones.👍👍
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Old 23rd Feb 2018, 23:45
  #1143 (permalink)  
 
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For the best part of three decades management held the upper hand.

  • The employee relations model is ill suited to the reality that demographics are not supportive of adversarial relations.

  • Governments were happy for real wages to decline, that is why wage growth is effectively nil. Employers outsourced, used 457 type visas and fear to control labour unit cost.

These two points have driven many new pilots (and new graduates) elsewhere as terms and conditions no longer provide a reasonable return on investment. One might quip the 'model' was too successful.

As it is in Europe and the USA, it is now in Australia: Qualified Pilots are in short supply.

This is another ill conceived, hastily cobbled together sound bite with as much substance as his other 'game changing' announcements.

The tide is turning.
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Old 24th Feb 2018, 00:03
  #1144 (permalink)  
 
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I note, with sadness, that the late, great Ben Sandilands' shoes are still empty... 😔
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Old 24th Feb 2018, 00:05
  #1145 (permalink)  
 
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Can someone tell me exactly what “non adversarial” industrial relations look like? Apart from gigantic cost blow outs because what it really means is union demands of all QF flight numbers being paid mainline rates or similar? Some details on what this would look like would be helpful - not just motherhood statements about “respect” and “taking your pilots with you” and naive and oversimplified pointing at Southwest Airline, which has recently has plenty of adversarial relations.
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Old 24th Feb 2018, 00:10
  #1146 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Keg View Post
I said previously that BAE Tamworth seemed a good option. Do they have the capacity for 500 residential pilots at the one time? I wouldn’t have thought so. Do they have enough civvie QFIs? Could they even surge that much?

This is going to be a very, very difficult proposition as the issue they’re trying to solve (lack of pilots) is going to impinge on their ability to train the numbers they’re talking about.
October 2017
BAE Systems Australia today announced that it would lease part of its Tamworth training facility to CAE Oxford Aviation Training Academy.
CAE Oxford will use the facility for training its commercial pilot customers. It is looking to expand its business from 2018 onwards to meet future training requirements and BAE Systems' Tamworth facility is ideally suited.

BAE Systems Australia will continue to deliver military training services to its current customers as contracted until December 2019 – the Australian Defence Force, Republic of Singapore Air Force, Royal Brunei Air Force and Papua New Guinea Defence Force.

The lease with CAE Oxford builds on the capability developed by BAE Systems at Tamworth.

BAE Systems Chief Executive Glynn Phillips said:
“We are working collaboratively with local community leaders to consider options for the site that will maximise the use of the facilities. Today’s signing is a great outcome.

“We are also engaging with our current customers and the Australian Defence Force regarding the provision of military training at the site.

CAE Oxford have just about taken over the complete set up

As Keg rightly points out where his figures outline the problems training organisations are unable to supply enough instructors now let alone the future.
Engineering is another significant problem.
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Old 24th Feb 2018, 00:16
  #1147 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2018
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A few points.

1. Q will have to increase the HR department by X to cope with the administration of candidates. It doesn't seem to run that well now from the experience of myself and others.

2. How many CPL/ATPL holders are there in the Australian community that aren't active? An untapped resource perhaps?

3. Personally I'm opposed to any tax payer dollars going to such a program.
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Old 24th Feb 2018, 00:17
  #1148 (permalink)  
 
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Sure Justin.

Plenty of books to read, lots of journal publications too.

If you wanted to understand the 'partnership' versus 'adversarial' model then look no further than Southwest airlines.

The obsession your masters have with labour unit cost is like looking through the wrong end of the telescope, same picture but rather distorted.

Don't fear though, most airlines focus excessively on labour unit cost reductions. Qantas is not alone in that regard, but pick a metric of performance and you will find that a workplace with mutual respect, not in words like most modern corporates, but in action out performs those without.

By way of an example, Mr Joyce made a statement circa 2004 when handed the reins of Jetstar by Mr Dixon.

He copied the Ryan Air playbook of employee relations paraphrasing Ryan air doctrine;

'The idea was to recruit a vibrant start up team, burn them out, then get rid of them and put in a fresh team'.

Look through the list at Qantas in HR/IR many of the office holders have affiliations with Ryan air.

We would not expect any public change of sentiment, Mr Joyce and his structure detests pilots, but with supply dwindling and retirement rates increasing, Qantas like many modern adversarial structured IR/HR airlines will be dragged kicking and screaming to the modern reality; You need qualified pilots and treating them with contempt is not something you can actually afford anymore!


BAE Systems Australia today announced that it would lease part of its Tamworth training facility to CAE Oxford Aviation Training Academy.
Think practically, given Air Services deactivated the VOR and NDB network, where do training aircraft conduct ILS approaches on the east coast? Avalon in Victoria and Tamworth are about it. Essendon has overshoot issues off runway 26, depending upon configuration at nearby Melbourne.

Back to the story Alan, pilot shortage solved!
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Old 24th Feb 2018, 00:26
  #1149 (permalink)  
 
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What a typically vague, meaningless and motherhood-laden reply. Please feel free to share links or names of these articles. Southwest has had lots of industrial unrest with pilots in recent years.

The only “non adversarial” approach you mean is one where constraints are put on managerial prerogative. Why not just say so?
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Old 24th Feb 2018, 00:57
  #1150 (permalink)  
 
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Hasn't this idea of a pilot training college been floated by Qantas previously? I think it may have been sometime around 2010-2012 but it may have been earlier. Once again it was a statement made at an AGM or a results briefing and then nothing ever came of it.
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Old 24th Feb 2018, 01:36
  #1151 (permalink)  
Seagull201
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Listening to the QF bloke yesterday, where he spoke on both Channel's 7 and 9 morning shows,
QF are hoping to attract to the training programme, Year 12 HSC achievers with high marks or University educated people.

I'd guess the company will be swaying towards high academic qualifications during the initial and subsequent waves of recruitment for this type of programme,
due to the stakes being high, as a person will have to sign up (or through HECS) for a debt, i reckon of at least 120k, that's up to frozen ATPL level.
Not sure who will pick up the accommodation and daily meal allowance over 18 months, that does cost.

The rewards are high for anyone that is accepted and finishes the programme, they will more than likely be an F/O on an aircraft type, but if a person
fails any part of the theory or flying portion, then it could be a financial nightmare or stuck with a nice HECS debt and more than likely, will possibly have to complete
the rest of the training as an external student, meaning extra funds will be needed and the original job offer, may not be on offer anymore.

Remember all the CASA exams are computer based and a result is printed on completion, although the CPL exams aren't much of a challenge these days,
the Instrument Rating exam and some of the ATPL exams, especially flight planning can be a challenge and stretch most persons.

Most companies only give an applicant three attempts to make the grade for any given test, whether it's a written, flight test or aircraft type rating/endorsement.
If the grade isn't achieved in the required time frame, then the event is recorded as a fail.
What happens after that, is heartache, more money, study and the question, "does a person still want to continue"or what are the remaining options".

Although 5,000 people may have enquired for this new QF venture with the hope of being a QF pilot, it's not that straight forward, a person needs to meet the medical
and educational requirements, be able to commit to a massive debt that won't disappear overnight and have the ability to pass all aspects of the theory and achieve the required flying standards,
within the allocated time frame.

What i see happening is, the company will more than likely accept applicants that meet the entry requirements for this programme that have high academic qualifications, then once
they have exhausted this pool, they will possibly start lowering the entry educational requirements, just to maintain the training numbers, to enable the training business venture to continue being viable.

There could well be 5,000 enquiries now for this new programme, but once serious players get all the facts and understand what's really involved to be a pilot, the original number of enquiries will drop.
I can never see QF reaching the proposed 500 student training level at any single facility in a 12 month period, maybe just 100 or 150 and that's with a full strength of staff and training fleet.

Look at the example of all the major flying schools in the country, there's a shortage of grade 1 instructors in the market, now they're mostly advertising for grade 2 and three instructors, check the afap jobs section.
A similar thing will probably happen with this training programme over time, just to attract new students.
 
Old 24th Feb 2018, 06:52
  #1152 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2017
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What a typically vague, meaningless and motherhood-laden reply. Please feel free to share links or names of these articles. Southwest has had lots of industrial unrest with pilots in recent years.

The only “non adversarial” approach you mean is one where constraints are put on managerial prerogative. Why not just say so?
Management prerogative can be a two way street. Most effective organisations choose to partner with their staff.

Have a read of this,



View the IR journals, start with the Asia Pacific directory. If you need more empirical evidence keep reading. As always, do what your types do and rush back to 'the Campus'. A campus is a place of knowledge, so do some reading.

Gittell, J. H., von Nordenflycht, A., Kochan, T. A., McKersie, R., & Bamber, G. J. (2009). Labor relations and human resource management in the airline industry. The Global Airline Industry, 275.

Turnbull, P., Blyton, P., & Harvey, G. (2004). Cleared for take-off? Management-labour partnership in the European civil aviation industry. European Journal of Industrial Relations, 10(3), 287-307.

Peterson, R. B., & Tracy, L. (1988). Lessons from labor-management cooperation. California Management Review, 31(1), 40-53.

Eaton, S. C., Rubinstein, S. A., & McKersie, R. B. (2004). Building and sustaining labor-management partnerships: Recent experiences in the US. In Advances in Industrial & Labor Relations (pp. 137-156). Emerald Group Publishing Limited.

Google scholar may provide you with endless references and empirical studies, careful though dissenting views are not welcome in a dystopian workplace!
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Old 24th Feb 2018, 09:13
  #1153 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
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Hey guys,

How strict are the QF minimum requirements? I have near 500hr P1(U/S) and 1500hr multi crew exp. on B777 at CX, but unfortunately only 75ish hours P1 in a single engine (Cadet course).

Does that mean I have to hire a silly little single engine and fly around for another 100 hours? That would suck.

Last edited by lucky86; 24th Feb 2018 at 14:04.
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Old 24th Feb 2018, 10:13
  #1154 (permalink)  
 
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Do that mean I have to hire a silly little single engine and fly around for another 100 hours? That would suck.
They are also quite picky about grammar, you know like words and stuff.

that's up to frozen ATPL level.
I see this phrase creeping into use in Australia. There is no such beast under our system of licensing.
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Old 24th Feb 2018, 12:58
  #1155 (permalink)  
 
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Icarus, we all know "Frozen ATPL" isn't a thing here, but it's shorter than typing "Passes in all ATPL Subjects" and we all know what they mean, it's a colloquial term when used here.

Am I the only one who thinks these colleges are a terrible idea? I went through a semester at Griffith Uni about 10 years ago and the number of people who joined because "It looked cool" was staggering, many I wouldn't have thought should be in a cockpit back then and just as many now that I definitely don't think should be, a lot who dropped out after a year or so when they realised what it really involved.

I can see a Qantas run "Flight College" as being full of heartache, regrets and debt. There will of course be those who want it and will always want it, they'll go through and be happy as larry, but there will be many who drop out along the way with massive debt to their name or realise that Aviation is more than just high exit scores.

I'm all for people getting the opportunity to follow their dreams and having access to VET-FEE, HECS etc... but I really hope the people doing the recruiting are more than just your usual HR flunkies and that the reality of Aviation is clearly explained to these recruits beyond just flashy advertising showing shiny jets, shiny hats and good looking hosties.
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Old 24th Feb 2018, 13:18
  #1156 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Ixixly View Post
I really hope the people doing the recruiting are more than just your usual HR flunkies...
HA! Genuinely funny stuff Ixixly!
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Old 24th Feb 2018, 14:12
  #1157 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Ixixly View Post
I can see a Qantas run "Flight College" as being full of heartache, regrets and debt. There will of course be those who want it and will always want it, they'll go through and be happy as larry, but there will be many who drop out along the way with massive debt to their name or realise that Aviation is more than just high exit scores.
No doubt this will be spun-off into a multi-part series documenting the trials and tribulations of these folk. Channel 7 will pay for the ‘exclusive access’ and a number of Q managers will get a handsome bonus when the final edit is nothing more than a fluff piece that highlights the 1:1 female to male trainee ratio and recent graduates living the high life in Sydney’s eastern suburbs.

I’m programming the DVR in anticipation!
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Old 24th Feb 2018, 14:20
  #1158 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Rated De View Post
As always, do what your types do and rush back to 'the Campus'. A campus is a place of knowledge, so do some reading.
Rated, you made my day, Bravo
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Old 24th Feb 2018, 22:00
  #1159 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Justin. Beaver View Post
Can someone tell me exactly what “non adversarial” industrial relations look like? Apart from gigantic cost blow outs because what it really means is union demands of all QF flight numbers being paid mainline rates or similar? Some details on what this would look like would be helpful - not just motherhood statements about “respect” and “taking your pilots with you” and naive and oversimplified pointing at Southwest Airline, which has recently has plenty of adversarial relations.
Define ‘window licker’. Most of what you just wrote is either incorrect, lacks perspective or is driven by an agenda.
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Old 25th Feb 2018, 00:11
  #1160 (permalink)  
 
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Although 5,000 people may have enquired for this new QF venture with the hope of being a QF pilot, it's not that straight forward, a person needs to meet the medical
and educational requirements, be able to commit to a massive debt that won't disappear overnight and have the ability to pass all aspects of the theory and achieve the required flying standards,
within the allocated time frame.
It was just another sound bite for the ever dwindling readership of the mainstream media to reprint, let's them spend column width on something other than Domain adverts or Kim Kardashian tales...

They haven't turned a sod of earth, got an approval in place, a manual written just more words.

Just like JQ Hong Kong they rushed around with megaphone proclaiming they were gunna do this and that, when their application didn't even comply with the existing HK rules for Place of incorporation (Principal Place of Business) legislation.
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