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Qantas Recruitment

Old 23rd Feb 2019, 03:59
  #2161 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Unfortunately not the Orient
Posts: 195
I'm confused? If your Perth based wouldn't you be prepared to be actually based in Perth. ie. not sometimes but always be in Perth?
Just asking
We are talking mainly about guys/gals that have been based in Perth as their initial category who feel that they shouldn’t have to comply with the EA as they would rather be somewhere else. It’s not just the Perth based people either, east coast based pilots are incapable of reading the contract also. I’ve heard of a bloke who was on available days (you know, the ones where you are available to the company) and wouldn’t answer his phone. Crewing called his manager who sent him a text detailing the consequences of not calling him back (back to the dole que), when he called back it turns out he was in Bali on a surfing trip. Tough luck, you are required for a duty, how you get there is your problem. It’s only going to take one getting sacked to wake up the entitled. Problem for these people is that those details stay on your file forever. When it’s time for an upgrade, that stuff is all taken into account. Good luck to the next generation.
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Old 23rd Feb 2019, 05:06
  #2162 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2017
Location: Europe
Posts: 1,410
At the end of the day, if you're Perth based then you are required to be available in Perth under the terms of the EA with regard to standby's and other duties. At the moment, how you get to the airport at the required time and fit for duty is up to you if you choose to commute from elsewhere.
It would be a brave person to stand before a judge and say that commuting across a continent before a long TOD meets the rest requirements.

In the UK, British Airways have banned the use of staff travel on day of operation. Naturally, there are numerous ways around this, however the UK CAA is now looking through not only staff travel but commute times more broadly. The intent is to investigate whether sign on times and rest periods are adequate given, among other things housing costs pushing people further away from the base. Suffice to say the onus presently remains is on the pilot. that BA have acted the way they have may give an insight to the way this responsibility will be handled in the future; joint liability.
Rest assured being fit for duty will be heavily scrutinised in the years to come. It would be an extremely precarious position to explain to His Honour that flying across a continent and then operating a night TOD around 20 hours had as little impact on the performance of one's duties as a short 30 minute drive to sign on.
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Old 23rd Feb 2019, 05:17
  #2163 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Posts: 177
Getting a little more back on topic. According to the Qantas there are currently 151 pilots on the hold file, not counting those assigned to the next four courses up to end of April (about 50). Also 134 pilots currently being processed after assessment days.
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Old 23rd Feb 2019, 07:26
  #2164 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2019
Location: Sydney
Posts: 11
Originally Posted by Rated De View Post
It would be a brave person to stand before a judge and say that commuting across a continent before a long TOD meets the rest requirements.

In the UK, British Airways have banned the use of staff travel on day of operation. Naturally, there are numerous ways around this, however the UK CAA is now looking through not only staff travel but commute times more broadly. The intent is to investigate whether sign on times and rest periods are adequate given, among other things housing costs pushing people further away from the base. Suffice to say the onus presently remains is on the pilot. that BA have acted the way they have may give an insight to the way this responsibility will be handled in the future; joint liability.
Rest assured being fit for duty will be heavily scrutinised in the years to come. It would be an extremely precarious position to explain to His Honour that flying across a continent and then operating a night TOD around 20 hours had as little impact on the performance of one's duties as a short 30 minute drive to sign on.
Sorry RD but you have absolutely no idea what youíre on about. Donít know if youíve ever been a long haul pilot, as you seem to keep your cards close to your chest, but this, to me, seems a lot like someone heckling from the cheap seats.

I actually fly this PER-LHR sector. Iíve tried lots of different options including coming over the day before. For this particular sector, which departs early evening, it works best, for me, to spend a night in my own bed. Get up when I wake up, catch the early afternoon flight to Perth, have a couple of hours to iron a shirt and grab a bite to eat, then go to work. I donít care if I have the first break, or second. It doesnít matter as I either have first break and doze, or second break and have a solid four hour sleep. I actually find that Iím arriving in London ready to start the day. I donít even feel like I need to sleep immediately after getting to the hotel.

What seems to escape some people is that this aircraft flies for 18 hours before arriving in London. You should plan to rest on board. Get a solid four hours sleep in the crew rest and I feel Iím arriving in London relatively fresh. The mindset here is that people should be as fresh as they would be when your average office worker arrives at there desk at 9am after 9 hours sleep in their own bed. This is not possible when your flying back of the clock. What office worker spends 18 solid hours at their desk without sleep? If they do then theyíd be in absolutely no state to drive home, let alone land an aeroplane. Add to that a back of the clock roster and itís imperative that you plan a sleep on board. The best way to achieve that is to plan to sleep, as best you can, when your body clock wants you to sleep. That means being ready to sleep 4-8 hours into this 18 hour sector. By flying over on the day of the flight I find I can achieve this. Fly over on the day before and I canít. Iíd be more than happy explaining this to ďHis HonourĒ.

Some airlines, Emirates is one, have an operating crew and a relief crew. The relief crew are actually encouraged to turn up tired. They are expected to take the first break so it would be pointless turning up fresh as a daisy and not be able to sleep. Qantas has Second Officers so this wonít work. So some latitude must be allowed to achieve your own balance.

I guess the takeout from this is that crew rest is individual. What works for some, might not work for others. By taking BAs cookie cutter approach by banning staff travel on the day of operating would actually make matters a lot more stressful for everyone, especially those who find paxing on the day works best for them. The best way is undoubtedly what Qantas presently does. Leave it up to the individual to make up their own mind on what works best for them. Unfortunately, rules will probably be forced upon us because desk bound self appointed experts think they know better.
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Old 23rd Feb 2019, 08:40
  #2165 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Darwin
Posts: 73
I can see this being a repeat of 2007//2008 for us on the hold ��
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Old 23rd Feb 2019, 09:08
  #2166 (permalink)  
rep
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: adelaide
Posts: 95
Originally Posted by High_To_Low View Post
I can see this being a repeat of 2007//2008 for us on the hold ��
I highly doubt it.

The next 6 x 787's are replacements for the 747 so not really any expansion there. The 'project sunrise' aircraft will be expansion.

More 787 orders which I see happening will mean on-going recruitment for years to come. Management appear very happy with just how well they are doing. They still have another 30 purchase rights.

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Old 23rd Feb 2019, 09:22
  #2167 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Darwin
Posts: 73
Seems to be a huge hold file they are creating nonetheless with numerous holdfilers destined to spend 12+ months waiting which begs the question....why have so many if thereís only say 15/month with courses only Ďconfirmedí up until May
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Old 24th Feb 2019, 00:33
  #2168 (permalink)  
34R
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Brisbane
Age: 48
Posts: 181
Originally Posted by High_To_Low View Post
Seems to be a huge hold file they are creating nonetheless with numerous holdfilers destined to spend 12+ months waiting which begs the question....why have so many if thereís only say 15/month with courses only Ďconfirmedí up until May
I guess because things can change very rapidly.

It's not convenient for those on hold, but the company does need to be in a position to move quickly if the need arises. Compounding the issue will be the next years internal training requirements which are every bit as likely to be as demanding as last years, or thereabouts....

You can't do much more than put yourself in a position to to be available when required, sucks I know. I was on hold for 24 months 13 years ago and out of the blue got the call.

Hang in there.
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Old 24th Feb 2019, 04:57
  #2169 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2019
Location: CNS
Posts: 28
How long does the recruitment process take?
Due to the high number of applications received, processing times may vary. Face to face assessments are likely to commence in May 2018. Face to face assessment through to the final decision usually takes between 4 and 6 weeks.
If I resign from my current entity will this accelerate the process for me applicaiton?
If you resign from your current entity during any stage of the recruitment process your application will be withdrawn.
The above excerpts are from the FAQ document that accompanied the last internal EOIs which were in March 2018.

People from that application window that diligently prepared CVs and cover letters, that traveled(usually the day before) at their own expense to Sydney on two occasions for both the interviews and simulator assessments racking up probably close to $1000 on airfares and accommodation.
Then there was the whole suite of medical examinations required to be done at 'qantas approved' examiners costing anywhere from $500 to $1000. Mind boggling when you're already a group pilot, you are already on file at qantas medicals yet they want you to do one again?

So there you have ~$2000 of incurred expenses and 7 days out of your life gone just to apply for a position.

After all that, 11 months later there are still candidates awaiting information from 'TALENT ACQUISITION' whether or not they have been put on 'active hold', the term itself being quite the fabulous oxymoron.

It's really despicable what that department is doing. This all could easily be seen as retention inducing dangling carrot.

I get it, few positions, plenty of people wanting to work there. Do the right thing and at least narrow down the application criteria so you don't waste peoples time and money. Or maybe even move towards looking at a certain thing called MERIT. M-E-R-I-T.
Of some of the people that have received negative outcomes its unbelievable how many of them are good LHS operators.

Lies and deceit. Thats the spirit of australia apparently. That department needs a proper overhaul.
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Old 24th Feb 2019, 20:37
  #2170 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: elsewhere
Posts: 173
Originally Posted by spektrum View Post
Or maybe even move towards looking at a certain thing called MERIT. M-E-R-I-T.
Of some of the people that have received negative outcomes its unbelievable how many of them are good LHS operators.

Lies and deceit. Thats the spirit of australia apparently. That department needs a proper overhaul.
iím guessing all the internal ďnoísĒ were white males?
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Old 25th Feb 2019, 00:30
  #2171 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2017
Location: Australia
Posts: 20
Throw in another $1000++ for online/interview/sim prep, because knowing your stuff just isnít important these days, you really need to know how to manage some angry customers at a restaurant though.
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Old 25th Feb 2019, 04:57
  #2172 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2019
Location: Goldie
Posts: 2
Jeez spektrum you have a wild view on this process.

People from that application window that diligently prepared CVs and cover letters, that traveled(usually the day before) at their own expense to Sydney on two occasions for both the interviews and simulator assessments racking up probably close to $1000 on airfares and accommodation.
Do you think it's unusual for employers require candidates to travel to sit interviews/assessments? Because it's pretty normal in any other industry. Of course it's nice when an employer is doing well enough to offer to pay for those expenses. But do you seriously think Qantas are going to CHOOSE to pay for candidate's transport when they are well aware of the extent people are willing to go to for success in this process? And why are they so willing? Because the job is worth it on the other side of the assessment process. I mean come on. This isn't a poor business decision. It's just not to your liking.

Internal applicants were rostered paid days off in order to attend their assessments. A luxury that did not have to be afforded to any of them but it's still an advantage that many externals would have appreciated from their respective employers because this is usually a serious hurdle to overcome for pilots attending interviews from other airlines.

Then there was the whole suite of medical examinations required to be done at 'qantas approved' examiners costing anywhere from $500 to $1000. Mind boggling when you're already a group pilot, you are already on file at qantas medicals yet they want you to do one again?
I agree with this. I cannot find logic in their demands for a medical if you already hold a CASA class 1. However, liability is a complicated thing and may governed this process but I am not sure.

Or maybe even move towards looking at a certain thing called MERIT. M-E-R-I-T.
And I suppose you would qualify? Of course. Because 95% of pilots think they perform above average. The people who throw around "merit" are likely the ones who think they deserve for Qantas to pay for their transport and accomodation because they are so fortunate to have those people applying to work there. Since you were happy to spell the word out for us, why don't you suggest a way to measure "merit" across the entire group in a way that everyone finds fair? Sounds easy enough to figure out the way you write about this stuff.

I get it, few positions, plenty of people wanting to work there.
I don't think you do get it.

It's really despicable what that department is doing.
Lies and deceit. Thats the spirit of australia apparently.
Now come on. When were you lied to and deceived? You're poisoning the well here and does nothing for your argument other than appeal to your spite.
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Old 25th Feb 2019, 08:37
  #2173 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2019
Location: CNS
Posts: 28
I probably should have made it clear that I don't see an issue with funding your own travel costs when applying for a job. The crux of the matter is the fact that they expect one to jump through a plethora of hurdles, spending not negligible amounts of money and the department still can't give you a verdict on the outcome of your application 11 months later.
Do you personally think that is reasonable Friednick? What is your current position if I may ask?
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Old 25th Feb 2019, 11:28
  #2174 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Sydney
Posts: 1
Originally Posted by spektrum View Post
Or maybe even move towards looking at a certain thing called MERIT. M-E-R-I-T.
How did the process not measure 'merit' ?

They looked at your experience via your CV. The looked at your motivation in your cover letter. They looked at your psychometric ability with 2 rounds of testing. They looked at your decision making model and attitude via the behavioral interview. They looked at your flying ability in the sim. They looked at your reputation via your references.

What did they miss? Did they forget to ask if you can juggle?

Airline interviews have always been a shitshow, how this is a surprise to anyone is a surprise to me.
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Old 26th Feb 2019, 11:22
  #2175 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Gladstone
Age: 43
Posts: 48
Originally Posted by IsDon01 View Post


Sorry RD but you have absolutely no idea what youíre on about. Donít know if youíve ever been a long haul pilot, as you seem to keep your cards close to your chest, but this, to me, seems a lot like someone heckling from the cheap seats.

I actually fly this PER-LHR sector. Iíve tried lots of different options including coming over the day before. For this particular sector, which departs early evening, it works best, for me, to spend a night in my own bed. Get up when I wake up, catch the early afternoon flight to Perth, have a couple of hours to iron a shirt and grab a bite to eat, then go to work. I donít care if I have the first break, or second. It doesnít matter as I either have first break and doze, or second break and have a solid four hour sleep. I actually find that Iím arriving in London ready to start the day. I donít even feel like I need to sleep immediately after getting to the hotel.

What seems to escape some people is that this aircraft flies for 18 hours before arriving in London. You should plan to rest on board. Get a solid four hours sleep in the crew rest and I feel Iím arriving in London relatively fresh. The mindset here is that people should be as fresh as they would be when your average office worker arrives at there desk at 9am after 9 hours sleep in their own bed. This is not possible when your flying back of the clock. What office worker spends 18 solid hours at their desk without sleep? If they do then theyíd be in absolutely no state to drive home, let alone land an aeroplane. Add to that a back of the clock roster and itís imperative that you plan a sleep on board. The best way to achieve that is to plan to sleep, as best you can, when your body clock wants you to sleep. That means being ready to sleep 4-8 hours into this 18 hour sector. By flying over on the day of the flight I find I can achieve this. Fly over on the day before and I canít. Iíd be more than happy explaining this to ďHis HonourĒ.

Some airlines, Emirates is one, have an operating crew and a relief crew. The relief crew are actually encouraged to turn up tired. They are expected to take the first break so it would be pointless turning up fresh as a daisy and not be able to sleep. Qantas has Second Officers so this wonít work. So some latitude must be allowed to achieve your own balance.

I guess the takeout from this is that crew rest is individual. What works for some, might not work for others. By taking BAs cookie cutter approach by banning staff travel on the day of operating would actually make matters a lot more stressful for everyone, especially those who find paxing on the day works best for them. The best way is undoubtedly what Qantas presently does. Leave it up to the individual to make up their own mind on what works best for them. Unfortunately, rules will probably be forced upon us because desk bound self appointed experts think they know better.
Out of curiosity, how do the rest periods run on board? One at a time, SO/CPT at the same time ect
Is it a single 4 hour block?
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Old 26th Feb 2019, 15:50
  #2176 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2019
Location: Sydney
Posts: 11
Originally Posted by Fujiroll76 View Post


Out of curiosity, how do the rest periods run on board? One at a time, SO/CPT at the same time ect
Is it a single 4 hour block?
The only requirement is that either Capt or F/O must be on duty with one of the S/Os. Essentially that means the two S/Os sort out between them whoís on duty and whoís resting and the Capt and F/O do the same.

Usually you you get two breaks each. A short and a long. Depending on the sector and whether your body is ready to sleep the first break could either be the short or the long. Itís flexible. Some guys prefer to say just let me sleep for a maximum of five hours. If I canít sleep Iíll be back after 3. If the guy on duty feels tired then he just calls his mate back earlier.

Usually on the PER-LHR each of you will get a total of 8 hours in the bunk. Manage it well and your quite ok at the other end.
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Old 26th Feb 2019, 20:34
  #2177 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Gladstone
Age: 43
Posts: 48
Originally Posted by IsDon01 View Post


The only requirement is that either Capt or F/O must be on duty with one of the S/Os. Essentially that means the two S/Os sort out between them whoís on duty and whoís resting and the Capt and F/O do the same.

Usually you you get two breaks each. A short and a long. Depending on the sector and whether your body is ready to sleep the first break could either be the short or the long. Itís flexible. Some guys prefer to say just let me sleep for a maximum of five hours. If I canít sleep Iíll be back after 3. If the guy on duty feels tired then he just calls his mate back earlier.

Usually on the PER-LHR each of you will get a total of 8 hours in the bunk. Manage it well and your quite ok at the other end.
Thanks Don. Great insight into the long haul life
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Old 26th Feb 2019, 22:14
  #2178 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2017
Location: Europe
Posts: 1,410
Originally Posted by IsDon01 View Post


Sorry RD but you have absolutely no idea what you’re on about. Don’t know if you’ve ever been a long haul pilot, as you seem to keep your cards close to your chest, but this, to me, seems a lot like someone heckling from the cheap seats.

I actually fly this PER-LHR sector. I’ve tried lots of different options including coming over the day before. For this particular sector, which departs early evening, it works best, for me, to spend a night in my own bed. Get up when I wake up, catch the early afternoon flight to Perth, have a couple of hours to iron a shirt and grab a bite to eat, then go to work. I don’t care if I have the first break, or second. It doesn’t matter as I either have first break and doze, or second break and have a solid four hour sleep. I actually find that I’m arriving in London ready to start the day. I don’t even feel like I need to sleep immediately after getting to the hotel.

What seems to escape some people is that this aircraft flies for 18 hours before arriving in London. You should plan to rest on board. Get a solid four hours sleep in the crew rest and I feel I’m arriving in London relatively fresh. The mindset here is that people should be as fresh as they would be when your average office worker arrives at there desk at 9am after 9 hours sleep in their own bed. This is not possible when your flying back of the clock. What office worker spends 18 solid hours at their desk without sleep? If they do then they’d be in absolutely no state to drive home, let alone land an aeroplane. Add to that a back of the clock roster and it’s imperative that you plan a sleep on board. The best way to achieve that is to plan to sleep, as best you can, when your body clock wants you to sleep. That means being ready to sleep 4-8 hours into this 18 hour sector. By flying over on the day of the flight I find I can achieve this. Fly over on the day before and I can’t. I’d be more than happy explaining this to “His Honour”.

Some airlines, Emirates is one, have an operating crew and a relief crew. The relief crew are actually encouraged to turn up tired. They are expected to take the first break so it would be pointless turning up fresh as a daisy and not be able to sleep. Qantas has Second Officers so this won’t work. So some latitude must be allowed to achieve your own balance.

I guess the takeout from this is that crew rest is individual. What works for some, might not work for others. By taking BAs cookie cutter approach by banning staff travel on the day of operating would actually make matters a lot more stressful for everyone, especially those who find paxing on the day works best for them. The best way is undoubtedly what Qantas presently does. Leave it up to the individual to make up their own mind on what works best for them. Unfortunately, rules will probably be forced upon us because desk bound self appointed experts think they know better.
Whether it suits your company or not is immaterial. That it works for you is great, however leaving aside the practicality have you considered how the court would view it?

British Airways are not banning leisure travel on the day of operation to be petty. They have likely acted in response to the perceived shared legal responsibility for adequate rest before flight. In other words they probably recognise the potential for liability in the event of an accident and the court deciding a pilot involved was consented to commute on day of operations.
Perhaps the distinction is a little nuanced, however what may work for you personally, and appear to have the tacit approval of the company, may be a risky position to adopt in the event that there is a serious operational incident.
Asking your employer for their consent, in writing, to position of day of operations prior to an arduous tour of duty may not elicit a favourable response.
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Old 26th Feb 2019, 22:55
  #2179 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2019
Location: Sydney
Posts: 11
Originally Posted by Rated De View Post
Whether it suits your company or not is immaterial. That it works for you is great, however leaving aside the practicality have you considered how the court would view it?

British Airways are not banning leisure travel on the day of operation to be petty. They have likely acted in response to the perceived shared legal responsibility for adequate rest before flight. In other words they probably recognise the potential for liability in the event of an accident and the court deciding a pilot involved was consented to commute on day of operations.
Perhaps the distinction is a little nuanced, however what may work for you personally, and appear to have the tacit approval of the company, may be a risky position to adopt in the event that there is a serious operational incident.
Asking your employer for their consent, in writing, to position of day of operations prior to an arduous tour of duty may not elicit a favourable response.
As already stated, I am more than happy to justify my position to the judge.

Despite your concerns, I donít believe Qantas would have any issues either. They recognise the irrefutable fact that fatigue is a very personal thing. What works for one person, doesnít work for someone else. To stringently legislate a set of protocols to cover commuting would actually adversely affect those, like me, who find the paxing on the day option results in less fatigue on arrival in London. By legislating a tight set of protocols as BA have done may actually open them up to liability rather than protect them from it. You canít legislate out fatigue. A pilot in an incident could say that he was forced to operate in a method dictated by BAs restrictions which was sub optimal for him personally. Accordingly, your honour, I was actually more fatigued due to BAs restrictions than I would be if given the latitude to commute when it suited me.

The Colgan Air accident highlighted the fatigue issues relating to commuting before operating and is often trotted out to justify the position of the armchair critics such as yourself. There is a world of difference between commuting across the country and then operating a 2 pilot 4 sector domestic day, and paxing to operate a 4 pilot single sector day with 8 hours rest in the bunk en route. A 2 pilot 4 sector domestic day is tiring even without commuting. I would never consider paxing across the country immediately prior to operating this duty day. A single sector 4 pilot duty is totally different, and requires a different approach.

i understand you not getting it RD as you donít have a frame of reference.
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Old 27th Feb 2019, 01:18
  #2180 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: 3rd Rock
Posts: 85
Asking your employer for their consent, in writing, to position of day of operations prior to an arduous tour of duty may not elicit a favourable response.
Apparently this is the process for the Air NZ boys and girls who commute. Apparently he current mood is to approve commuting although the company have flip flopped on thier view of this over time.
I think part of the reluctance to allow it was a fear of the regulator pushing for greater recognition of commute times which never really eventuated, and instead the reality that a commuter flying in from the regions would have a shorter journey to work than someone driving through rush hour traffic cause the company to relent?
Either way, it is ultimately the pilots responsibility to arrive fit for duty, and you can be sure the company will do thier best to hang you out if there is ever to be a perceived liability on thier part.
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