Qantas 787 recruitment for cadetship
I reckon if JQ guys really do want a wide body QF Command they'll need to take the slot when they can, into whatever category they can, and wait it out in QF.
If too many JQ guys start taking up MOU slots, then AIPA will just get into bed with QF to create a new Nhulunbuy base, won't they? That would be the mature approach to the scenario.
And further, if any Q blokes decide that it actually suits them to take a promotional slot in Nhulunbuy, then we will all carry on and cast them aside for 'screwing the rest of us over'.
Surely thats how this works? .... Right?
Enough with the thread drift. Back to the QF recruitment topic.
And further, if any Q blokes decide that it actually suits them to take a promotional slot in Nhulunbuy, then we will all carry on and cast them aside for 'screwing the rest of us over'.
Surely thats how this works? .... Right?
Enough with the thread drift. Back to the QF recruitment topic.
The issue with the MOU is that the company (QF Group) has always abused the use of it to fit their shifting needs.
For years there was extremely limited access to JQ A320 slots even when they were rapidly expanding. There was almost no access directly to A330 slots (that I am aware of), guys had to go to the 320 and then wait for an internal transfer. No access to 787 slots. A320 slots that were available would be limited to specific and undesirable bases while the other bases were quarantined for JQ pilots.
Sometimes these decisions were for the benefit of Qantas who did not want to lose their pilots. Sometimes these were decision made to quell the anger of JQ pilots who felt aggrieved by the MOU positions. And sure enough when it suited the Group financially to allow the movement to flow from QF to JQ to relieve the surplus, the taps were opened.
So despite what the MOU actually says, the company will do whatever it wants in terms of making vacancies available under the MOU. If they don't feel they can spare the crew, then don't expect any vacancies to be available to JQ guys. Given they are already losing a significant number of returning QF MOU guys, they may decided they can't lose anymore pilots.
It is a very unfair situation but given the agreement spans multiple employers, unions and pilot bodies, it is very hard to fight the misuse of the MOU.
For years there was extremely limited access to JQ A320 slots even when they were rapidly expanding. There was almost no access directly to A330 slots (that I am aware of), guys had to go to the 320 and then wait for an internal transfer. No access to 787 slots. A320 slots that were available would be limited to specific and undesirable bases while the other bases were quarantined for JQ pilots.
Sometimes these decisions were for the benefit of Qantas who did not want to lose their pilots. Sometimes these were decision made to quell the anger of JQ pilots who felt aggrieved by the MOU positions. And sure enough when it suited the Group financially to allow the movement to flow from QF to JQ to relieve the surplus, the taps were opened.
So despite what the MOU actually says, the company will do whatever it wants in terms of making vacancies available under the MOU. If they don't feel they can spare the crew, then don't expect any vacancies to be available to JQ guys. Given they are already losing a significant number of returning QF MOU guys, they may decided they can't lose anymore pilots.
It is a very unfair situation but given the agreement spans multiple employers, unions and pilot bodies, it is very hard to fight the misuse of the MOU.
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Would someone buy that Baron a beer! Nailed it. The MOU is the omnibus of agreements, whatever QF want it to be, just the way QF have always intended it to be used. They would never have agreed to lock themselves into any type of perceived inflexibility.
Everyone else is just along for the ride.
Everyone else is just along for the ride.
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Spot on BB.
It must be realised that the respective Flight Ops departments of QF and JQ have to agree to activate the MOU, and I'm certain upper management of the group get the final say.
You can't just blame one group for the failing of the MOU system when there are so many parties at the table.
JQ and QLink guys can take some comfort from a statement made by management at a recent roadshow briefing within the last couple of weeks that I attended. It was acknowledged that, in the past, there was an understanding not to poach pilots from JQ and QLink. It was categorically stated that this WILL NOT be the case this time around. It was acknowledged that it is far better to keep our people within the group by allowing them to move to QF if they wish, rather than see that talent pool disappear to the desert, or some other competitor.
Very logical IMHO. If our people see they have job progression within the whole Qantas group they are more likely to stay.
It must be realised that the respective Flight Ops departments of QF and JQ have to agree to activate the MOU, and I'm certain upper management of the group get the final say.
You can't just blame one group for the failing of the MOU system when there are so many parties at the table.
JQ and QLink guys can take some comfort from a statement made by management at a recent roadshow briefing within the last couple of weeks that I attended. It was acknowledged that, in the past, there was an understanding not to poach pilots from JQ and QLink. It was categorically stated that this WILL NOT be the case this time around. It was acknowledged that it is far better to keep our people within the group by allowing them to move to QF if they wish, rather than see that talent pool disappear to the desert, or some other competitor.
Very logical IMHO. If our people see they have job progression within the whole Qantas group they are more likely to stay.
I have been trying to tell that very thing BB to anyone whinging about lack of access to the MOU. It was put in place for the companies benefit not the pilots. When JQ first got the 330 there were some DEC available under the MOU but I think they had to be existing 330 pilots. The PIC of the 330 that diverted into Guam because of a window overheat was QF and I think he went back after the 3 years to a 380 F/O slot.
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IsDon
I'm not sure, but I suspect, that it is Andrew David who is responsible for changing many of QF's executive toxic attitudes towards pilots such as this that have pervaded over the many years. If indeed that is true, hats' off to the man. Historically in this company, any attempt at upward management is usually rewarded with the sack.
An attitude as simple as actually attempting to provide group employees with some form of career progression to generate and maintain loyalty is simple Business 101 in most companies, but sadly not this one.
JQ and QLink guys can take some comfort from a statement made by management at a recent roadshow briefing within the last couple of weeks that I attended. It was acknowledged that, in the past, there was an understanding not to poach pilots from JQ and QLink. It was categorically stated that this WILL NOT be the case this time around. It was acknowledged that it is far better to keep our people within the group by allowing them to move to QF if they wish, rather than see that talent pool disappear to the desert, or some other competitor.
An attitude as simple as actually attempting to provide group employees with some form of career progression to generate and maintain loyalty is simple Business 101 in most companies, but sadly not this one.
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IsDon
I'm not sure, but I suspect, that it is Andrew David who is responsible for changing many of QF's executive toxic attitudes towards pilots such as this that have pervaded over the many years. If indeed that is true, hats' off to the man. Historically in this company, any attempt at upward management is usually rewarded with the sack.
An attitude as simple as actually attempting to provide group employees with some form of career progression to generate and maintain loyalty is simple Business 101 in most companies, but sadly not this one.
I'm not sure, but I suspect, that it is Andrew David who is responsible for changing many of QF's executive toxic attitudes towards pilots such as this that have pervaded over the many years. If indeed that is true, hats' off to the man. Historically in this company, any attempt at upward management is usually rewarded with the sack.
An attitude as simple as actually attempting to provide group employees with some form of career progression to generate and maintain loyalty is simple Business 101 in most companies, but sadly not this one.
I'm not sure where it's coming from, but it makes perfect sense to me. I've met Andrew David a couple of times and he does seem to me a perfectly reasonable bloke.
I know AIPA have been raising the possibility of some sort of group opportunity list for years, maybe there are now some indications that the company may be more responsive to that than they have been in many years. Who could forget the previous administration statements in the past about not allowing QF pilots to fly with JQ because they didn't want to pollute the culture. Ignoramuses!
I can't see anything but good coming from a group opportunity list. A progression from QLink to JQ to mainline is a natural one. A great way to provide a career path beyond what link and JQ pilots would otherwise expect without having to resign from one entity or another. An end to the 20 years to command nonsense in mainline.
Clearly we have a long way to go before we get to that point, but at least we have an end to the artificial barriers that prevented QLink and JQ pilots from moving to mainline. It's a start in the right direction.
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JQ and QLink guys can take some comfort from a statement made by management at a recent roadshow briefing within the last couple of weeks that I attended. It was acknowledged that, in the past, there was an understanding not to poach pilots from JQ and QLink. It was categorically stated that this WILL NOT be the case this time around. It was acknowledged that it is far better to keep our people within the group by allowing them to move to QF if they wish, rather than see that talent pool disappear to the desert, or some other competitor.
Very logical IMHO. If our people see they have job progression within the whole Qantas group they are more likely to stay.
Very logical IMHO. If our people see they have job progression within the whole Qantas group they are more likely to stay.
If that's the case, they (management) had better get on with it and make the relevant announcements.
Guys and girls at Qlink are so pissed off right now with our management that they're not waiting around. Anyone who's not a Cadet or LOI holder is expecting to wait well over 12 months for a chance at mainline, and that's assuming an announcement would be made within the near future. And that's a big assumption.
I spoke with one of my Qlink friends just before he left for Emirates. He believed that he's a better chance of getting into mainline (and quicker) by going to Emirates for a year or two than he has by staying at the link.
Not that that's his plan anyway. He believes, as does many of his colleagues, that his (and his families) futures are better served by leaving Australia for the next ten years plus, then they do by him remaining as a Captain at Qlink. A pitiful indictment of our management.
And he's not alone.
We've had people leave to Emirates, EFA, Cathay, and other places. There are some more waiting on start dates. RUMOUR has it that there are around 70 Sunstate pilots applying to Emirates right now.
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If that's the case, they (management) had better get on with it and make the relevant announcements.
Guys and girls at Qlink are so pissed off right now with our management that they're not waiting around. Anyone who's not a Cadet or LOI holder is expecting to wait well over 12 months for a chance at mainline, and that's assuming an announcement would be made within the near future. And that's a big assumption.
I spoke with one of my Qlink friends just before he left for Emirates. He believed that he's a better chance of getting into mainline (and quicker) by going to Emirates for a year or two than he has by staying at the link.
Not that that's his plan anyway. He believes, as does many of his colleagues, that his (and his families) futures are better served by leaving Australia for the next ten years plus, then they do by him remaining as a Captain at Qlink. A pitiful indictment of our management.
And he's not alone.
We've had people leave to Emirates, EFA, Cathay, and other places. There are some more waiting on start dates. RUMOUR has it that there are around 70 Sunstate pilots applying to Emirates right now.
DIVOSH!
Guys and girls at Qlink are so pissed off right now with our management that they're not waiting around. Anyone who's not a Cadet or LOI holder is expecting to wait well over 12 months for a chance at mainline, and that's assuming an announcement would be made within the near future. And that's a big assumption.
I spoke with one of my Qlink friends just before he left for Emirates. He believed that he's a better chance of getting into mainline (and quicker) by going to Emirates for a year or two than he has by staying at the link.
Not that that's his plan anyway. He believes, as does many of his colleagues, that his (and his families) futures are better served by leaving Australia for the next ten years plus, then they do by him remaining as a Captain at Qlink. A pitiful indictment of our management.
And he's not alone.
We've had people leave to Emirates, EFA, Cathay, and other places. There are some more waiting on start dates. RUMOUR has it that there are around 70 Sunstate pilots applying to Emirates right now.
DIVOSH!
Why would a 30 year old dash 8 skipper see the pinnacle of his career as dash 8 captain? It makes sense he'll look at options to further his career in jets. If the Qantas group can't, or more to the point won't, give him that opportunity you can't blame the bloke from going overseas.
Finally, I hope, management have realised that.
In the words of the guy giving the briefing recently, we've had enough of being the training ground for other airlines.
It actually makes sense that QLink and JQ drivers are more likely to stay if they know they have a career progression to mainline if they want it.
As for your 12 month wait to get into mainline for those cadets and LOI holders, I would say that's nonsense. These are the guys that will be the first recruited into mainline. And that's not 12 months away.
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As for your 12 month wait to get into mainline for those cadets and LOI holders, I would say that's nonsense. These are the guys that will be the first recruited into mainline. And that's not 12 months away.
Anyone who's not a Cadet or LOI holder is expecting to wait well over 12 months for a chance at mainline
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True. So you did. My mistake.
I guess for those that aren't cadets or LOI holders they will then have to decide if a 12 month wait to get into mainline trumps 7 years in the sandpit.
If I was in my 30s I know what I'd be doing. But I hate sand. Two days at a stretch is about all I can take of Dubai. Some love it, and I understand their position, but it's not for me.
At least there is no DISADVANTAGE to being in QLink or JQ if your real wish is to join mainline. That certainly was the case in the past.
I guess for those that aren't cadets or LOI holders they will then have to decide if a 12 month wait to get into mainline trumps 7 years in the sandpit.
If I was in my 30s I know what I'd be doing. But I hate sand. Two days at a stretch is about all I can take of Dubai. Some love it, and I understand their position, but it's not for me.
At least there is no DISADVANTAGE to being in QLink or JQ if your real wish is to join mainline. That certainly was the case in the past.
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IsDon
Cheers, and I agree with your last statement, if it pans out that way.
But like I said earlier, management had better get on with it and make some announcements.
Because apart from some general crap from the CP back in February, all we've heard is rumours. And I'd be willing to bet that our management will fight tooth and nail to reduce Qlink pilot losses to mainline/J* to a minimum.
And in the meantime crews all over are being flogged with very little let up in the foreseeable future. 12 months would be a minimum. I'd estimate 18 months to two years for crew who aren't LOI/Cadets. And if mainline are recruiting off the street at the same time then the Qlink guys will have more incentive to find other employers.
Latest rumour is Seven captains interviewed (and accepted) into Emirates.
DIVOSH!
Cheers, and I agree with your last statement, if it pans out that way.
But like I said earlier, management had better get on with it and make some announcements.
Because apart from some general crap from the CP back in February, all we've heard is rumours. And I'd be willing to bet that our management will fight tooth and nail to reduce Qlink pilot losses to mainline/J* to a minimum.
And in the meantime crews all over are being flogged with very little let up in the foreseeable future. 12 months would be a minimum. I'd estimate 18 months to two years for crew who aren't LOI/Cadets. And if mainline are recruiting off the street at the same time then the Qlink guys will have more incentive to find other employers.
Latest rumour is Seven captains interviewed (and accepted) into Emirates.
DIVOSH!
I can confirm EK is taking several Qlink fellas.
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Well, all the more reason for Qantas mainline, and the group as a whole, to get its collective sh1t together.
Frankly I'm astounded that we haven't had new hires starting months ago. I know they had to crank up the recruiting system from scratch but FFS they've left the organisation of this recruiting nonsense wayyyyyy too late. It's not as if they haven't known for ages they are going to have to recruit. It's been the worst kept secret ever.
The A330 has been short of S/Os for quite a while, being crewed with an additional captain or F/O as they just don't have anyone else. Guys should have been training on it 12 months ago.
The longer they naval gaze and procrastinate, the more talented people will have had enough and take the bird in the hand. Move to the desert, lost forever.
It also behoves the group to get the whole transfer of pilots between entities right. They won't want to leave QLink in the lurch by poaching half the pilot body in the first year, but they wouldn't want to put too many restrictions on either, as they'll resign and go to the desert anyway. A much scarier proposal losing them altogether, rather than using their skills in mainline.
If I were running QLink right now I'd have anticipated the exodus of pilots to mainline and cranked up the sausage machine to full kilter. Have a short term excess of pilots. That way you'd have the capacity to let people go without it affecting your operation. But that would require forward thinking. Sadly lacking in our MBA graduate KPI ruled world.
Frankly I'm astounded that we haven't had new hires starting months ago. I know they had to crank up the recruiting system from scratch but FFS they've left the organisation of this recruiting nonsense wayyyyyy too late. It's not as if they haven't known for ages they are going to have to recruit. It's been the worst kept secret ever.
The A330 has been short of S/Os for quite a while, being crewed with an additional captain or F/O as they just don't have anyone else. Guys should have been training on it 12 months ago.
The longer they naval gaze and procrastinate, the more talented people will have had enough and take the bird in the hand. Move to the desert, lost forever.
It also behoves the group to get the whole transfer of pilots between entities right. They won't want to leave QLink in the lurch by poaching half the pilot body in the first year, but they wouldn't want to put too many restrictions on either, as they'll resign and go to the desert anyway. A much scarier proposal losing them altogether, rather than using their skills in mainline.
If I were running QLink right now I'd have anticipated the exodus of pilots to mainline and cranked up the sausage machine to full kilter. Have a short term excess of pilots. That way you'd have the capacity to let people go without it affecting your operation. But that would require forward thinking. Sadly lacking in our MBA graduate KPI ruled world.
IsDon, stop thinking like a pilot. Identifying a problem, and finding a workable solution. Think more like a bean counter, "if we wait just two more months we save this much". We should have beat them up more at school.
Back to thread, QF haven't advertised yet right? Hope this doesn't go the same way as the 777.
Back to thread, QF haven't advertised yet right? Hope this doesn't go the same way as the 777.
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If I were running QLink right now I'd have anticipated the exodus of pilots to mainline and cranked up the sausage machine to full kilter. Have a short term excess of pilots. That way you'd have the capacity to let people go without it affecting your operation
Re mainline opening up, it's mid April and we've heard bupkiss. Nudda. Zip. Zero. Zilch. The guys leaving to Emirates (with more on the way apparently) all pretty much have the same reason to leaving - no progression. Not to mention the rumored embargo on being able to go from one Group entity to another. They say they would have a better chance of going to mainline from Emirates than from QLink because they would be hired from outside the Group. Emirates have apparently told our management that they were VERY happy with the quality of the candidates and more were on the cards. So alas, the talent is plundered by the competition. Will management learn? Not bloody likely.
Fuel-Off
It is the same in ALL group airlines with Jetconnect struggling to even get people to interview and Jetstar having 10 FO's already resigned to go to Air NZ with rumours of another 10-15 being interviewed in the next few weeks. The common thread when you talk to these FO's who are going is that they don't see any progression in the Qantas Group and say that it is not worth sticking around for mainline recruitment as Qantas won't recruit from group. So if the rumoured change is true then management really need to state as much, perhaps that will give some of the guys on the fence some reason to stick around.
I don't think those guys going to EK will be leaving in a hurry to come back to QF mainline after being slapped with a $50K USD endorsement and 5 years bond. Desperate times for desperate people to go to the ME if you ask me.