Australian pilots can work for US regionals.
AFAP should stick to its knitting.
If you have the opportunity to fly offshore go for it, you won't see the same opportunity here.
I highly doubt the small number of E3's would have any downward pressure on wages in a economy with rampant inflation.
Who knows what the next crisis will be in another 10years, but you can guarantee the stand downs will be back.
If you have the opportunity to fly offshore go for it, you won't see the same opportunity here.
I highly doubt the small number of E3's would have any downward pressure on wages in a economy with rampant inflation.
Who knows what the next crisis will be in another 10years, but you can guarantee the stand downs will be back.
So it's absolutely OK for Qantas to open it's very overpriced pilot academy (with no employment guarantee) to flood the Australian market with 100's of freshly minted CPLs ready to fly for peanuts, but going overseas and working for a US airline is putting downward pressure on US airline pay and conditions???
Whatever AFAP is on I want some.
Whatever AFAP is on I want some.
Unions in Australia are a shadow of what they used to be and in some cases, that’s for the better. I worked very closely with a Pilots Union in Australia, that wasn’t the AFAP and in that short time, I came to the conclusion the AFAP pretty much had no idea about what they were doing and even less about anything that wasn’t contained within the Petri dish that is Australian Aviation.
There’s a lot that might be negative about E3’s but the last thing they’re doing is putting downward pressure on wages or conditions in the US.
There’s a lot that might be negative about E3’s but the last thing they’re doing is putting downward pressure on wages or conditions in the US.
These last two posts are quite accurate.
The market size and dynamic of the US economy is far more fluid that the Australian market.
Yet it has been accepted that imports to post holder positions here were needed… that was indeed downward pressure on conditions. It is often not that there is no one willing to do the job. It is more likely the risk reward equation was markedly skewed.
Some of those that weaseled in obtained permanent residency, ergo mission accomplished for lifestyle and retirement. Just outright pain left in the wake.
The market size and dynamic of the US economy is far more fluid that the Australian market.
Yet it has been accepted that imports to post holder positions here were needed… that was indeed downward pressure on conditions. It is often not that there is no one willing to do the job. It is more likely the risk reward equation was markedly skewed.
Some of those that weaseled in obtained permanent residency, ergo mission accomplished for lifestyle and retirement. Just outright pain left in the wake.
Yep, and it's OK for REX and others to bring 457's into Australia for turbo prop operations when there were a multitude of qualified Australians applying for the positions.
Anyone who thinks that E3's have forced downward pressure on regional wages is smoking the same weed the AFAP are. E3's have a minimal effect on whether a regional is viable or not. If they all left tomorrow the airlines would feel the same blip as what's happening due to attrition of these times.
In the good years, of which are about to start again, an E3 on the two year visa would fly 1500 hours or more and might even obtain a command depending on the regional. But AFAP and others would have you believe that it's better to be exploited in Australia rather than 'exploited' at a regional. I know which exploitment I'll take.
Ask any younger Australian with the requirements for an E3 what is better for them: 1500-2000 hours of Multi-Crew jet time, possible command in two to three years or continual kicks in the balls until they can get that prized 7 year SO then 15 to 20 year FO gig. I've heard it mentioned in some circles that anyone choosing this path is cheating. Pathetic.
Anyone who thinks that E3's have forced downward pressure on regional wages is smoking the same weed the AFAP are. E3's have a minimal effect on whether a regional is viable or not. If they all left tomorrow the airlines would feel the same blip as what's happening due to attrition of these times.
In the good years, of which are about to start again, an E3 on the two year visa would fly 1500 hours or more and might even obtain a command depending on the regional. But AFAP and others would have you believe that it's better to be exploited in Australia rather than 'exploited' at a regional. I know which exploitment I'll take.
Ask any younger Australian with the requirements for an E3 what is better for them: 1500-2000 hours of Multi-Crew jet time, possible command in two to three years or continual kicks in the balls until they can get that prized 7 year SO then 15 to 20 year FO gig. I've heard it mentioned in some circles that anyone choosing this path is cheating. Pathetic.
Ask any younger Australian with the requirements for an E3 what is better for them: 1500-2000 hours of Multi-Crew jet time, possible command in two to three years or continual kicks in the balls until they can get that prized 7 year SO then 15 to 20 year FO gig. I've heard it mentioned in some circles that anyone choosing this path is cheating. Pathetic.
But you've also to think of the longer term. You may be a Captain in a US regional but where to from there? Going to spend your adult life in the US? You may find that SO gig in Australia pays just as well, and the wait time to FO isn't that much.
Again, I don't know anyone who wants to come back. Some have scored a green card in the lottery and have moved to the majors. There will be green cards at some stage, could be two years, could be 5.
It's not all about pay, personally, me? Job satisfaction. But if you are after the pay and commit to the States and get to spend a decent amount of time at a major, your 401k v Super in Australia for the similar amount of time will make the Super look piss-anty.
It's all about timing.
It's not all about pay, personally, me? Job satisfaction. But if you are after the pay and commit to the States and get to spend a decent amount of time at a major, your 401k v Super in Australia for the similar amount of time will make the Super look piss-anty.
It's all about timing.
Not every Licence holder shares your motivations.
As for prospects regional E3 pilots are now streaming into Atlas, Spirit and other career destinations with comparable or better pay and career progression.
Added bonus of not having to deal with Australian HR, hold files, ambiguous criteria and the aforementioned continual kick in the balls.
Added bonus of not having to deal with Australian HR, hold files, ambiguous criteria and the aforementioned continual kick in the balls.
This thread has been running since 2015. Obviously the pandemic disrupted recruitment in Australia, but there should've been at least some who went the US path to get a couple of thousands hours of jet time, and possibly some command time. Did anyone manage to get that "prized" position in Australia? Because most recruits I saw in the few years leading up to 2020 were all seemingly ex Oz regionals, cadets or GA, and the only ex US Regionals I knew of I could count on less than one hand. The next year or so will be interesting to see if those in the US now in the regionals apply to return to Australia, or if their time in the US gives them an advantage in recruitment.
But you've also to think of the longer term. You may be a Captain in a US regional but where to from there? Going to spend your adult life in the US? You may find that SO gig in Australia pays just as well, and the wait time to FO isn't that much.
But you've also to think of the longer term. You may be a Captain in a US regional but where to from there? Going to spend your adult life in the US? You may find that SO gig in Australia pays just as well, and the wait time to FO isn't that much.
But you've also to think of the longer term. You may be a Captain in a US regional but where to from there? Going to spend your adult life in the US? You may find that SO gig in Australia pays just as well, and the wait time to FO isn't that much.
But as you say you will want to settle in the USA if you were to go down that path.
In terms of money though you are way better off in any Legacy airline in the USA than any jet airline in Australia especially once you start factoring taxation into the equation. All depends on where you want to live in the longer term.
"Make the easy, difficult and the difficult, impossible"?
As someone who actually did it I'll give you my take. Yes I am one of those few E3s that came back and got a job in Australia. That was my choice..Great job, great flying but living in the USA long term was not for me..I did not enjoy that part. Other's loved, it each to their own. Going through the process of getting a job back here after my USA experience was generally positive. Certainly was never looked at as "cheating" etc. Nor did I ever receive any "Dey Turk er jerbs" type of treatment from anyone in the US.
I will however offer this advice, have an out or an end game. Majors may never happen nor may the E3 be sustainable long term. Yes you may get lucky with the lottery or you might settle down with a local (my wife may not have approved of this option). But as some said, you've got some FO or PIC time at a part 121, what now? Whens the next down turn etc.
I think everyone in Aus will hire plenty this year (subject to COVID, WW3, market crash etc) and anyone that wants to come home will be in with a massive shot.
I will however offer this advice, have an out or an end game. Majors may never happen nor may the E3 be sustainable long term. Yes you may get lucky with the lottery or you might settle down with a local (my wife may not have approved of this option). But as some said, you've got some FO or PIC time at a part 121, what now? Whens the next down turn etc.
I think everyone in Aus will hire plenty this year (subject to COVID, WW3, market crash etc) and anyone that wants to come home will be in with a massive shot.
As someone who actually did it I'll give you my take. Yes I am one of those few E3s that came back and got a job in Australia. That was my choice..Great job, great flying but living in the USA long term was not for me..I did not enjoy that part. Other's loved, it each to their own. Going through the process of getting a job back here after my USA experience was generally positive. Certainly was never looked at as "cheating" etc. Nor did I ever receive any "Dey Turk er jerbs" type of treatment from anyone in the US.
I will however offer this advice, have an out or an end game. Majors may never happen nor may the E3 be sustainable long term. Yes you may get lucky with the lottery or you might settle down with a local (my wife may not have approved of this option). But as some said, you've got some FO or PIC time at a part 121, what now? Whens the next down turn etc.
I think everyone in Aus will hire plenty this year (subject to COVID, WW3, market crash etc) and anyone that wants to come home will be in with a massive shot.
I will however offer this advice, have an out or an end game. Majors may never happen nor may the E3 be sustainable long term. Yes you may get lucky with the lottery or you might settle down with a local (my wife may not have approved of this option). But as some said, you've got some FO or PIC time at a part 121, what now? Whens the next down turn etc.
I think everyone in Aus will hire plenty this year (subject to COVID, WW3, market crash etc) and anyone that wants to come home will be in with a massive shot.
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To echo the sentiments of the previous posters - don't forget E3s are seen as a band-aid solution to a skills shortage in the US. There is zero provision for getting permanent residency. Ask the many Australians flying overseas for expat heavy operators just as the pandemic started, they were the first to go before the locals of the airline. The same will happen when the next downturn occurs - regardless of what seniority you may hold.
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Fuel-Off
I'm curious about your reluctance to live in the USA. Not trying to get into a slugging match about one country being better than another (please don't let it degenerate to that) because not every country suits everyone.
What did you find unacceptable ?
Maybe your take on life here would be useful to your fellows who might consider chasing an E3 spot here.
To echo the sentiments of the previous posters - don't forget E3s are seen as a band-aid solution to a skills shortage in the US. There is zero provision for getting permanent residency. Ask the many Australians flying overseas for expat heavy operators just as the pandemic started, they were the first to go before the locals of the airline. The same will happen when the next downturn occurs - regardless of what seniority you may hold.
Fuel-Off
Fuel-Off
cLeAricE,
I'm curious about your reluctance to live in the USA. Not trying to get into a slugging match about one country being better than another (please don't let it degenerate to that) because not every country suits everyone.
What did you find unacceptable ?
Maybe your take on life here would be useful to your fellows who might consider chasing an E3 spot here.
I'm curious about your reluctance to live in the USA. Not trying to get into a slugging match about one country being better than another (please don't let it degenerate to that) because not every country suits everyone.
What did you find unacceptable ?
Maybe your take on life here would be useful to your fellows who might consider chasing an E3 spot here.
If you come back, you will find it hard not to laugh when your colleague briefs you that the BKN008 in Sydney this morning is "a threat."
But I didn't like everything. Some things that come to mind;
1. The amount of degenerates and sketchy individuals everywhere. You always feel on guard and never safe. Even in nice areas.
2. The quality of fresh food is awful unless you pay a fortune for it. Everything is packed full of preservatives or fructose corn syrup. Bread is disgusting and don't even mention the coffee.
3. My wife and I were thinking of kid's and I'd never ever want my child to go to an American School. Even if they don't get shot, the level of education appeared a little... lacking. (Yes I am aware Australia is becoming more more dumbed down too).
4. Culture of working comes first, and taking sick days, mental health days etc is so frowned upon. (Look at some of the flow through agreements).
5. Lots Of things (outside of aviation) are very backwards.
6. Healthcare.
7. Many personal things I missed such as Sport etc which has nothing to do with the US and everything to do with me.
But, all of that is personal opinion and potentially meaningless to anybody else. I've lived In the UK, spent large amount of time in Asia etc and loved it, but I found the US the hardest to live in.
It looks like cLeArIcE and I have traveled the same parts of the world and I understand completely, where he had reservations. I married a local and I’ve made my peace with it but with small kids, I’d definitely agree with his thoughts about kids growing up in the US vs Oz.
Last edited by Kenny; 18th Feb 2022 at 16:23.
