MERGED: Alan's still not happy......
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Ever thought that things run so well because of the clever and careful managers, wherever they may sit? Don't try to tell me that OTP and everything else is more functional on week-ends and during holiday periods. Quite often when the sh!t hits the fans in 'out of hours' time, the phones from the workers to the managers run hot.
That has never been my experience in more than 40 years, with many Airlines, and Worldwide.
Worker: MR Manager, MR Manager, the planes broken and its delayed what do we do ?
MR Manager: Fix it son.
Worker: Thanks MR Manager, don't know how we could have made that decision without you.
MR Manager: Fix it son.
Worker: Thanks MR Manager, don't know how we could have made that decision without you.
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Don't try to tell me that OTP and everything else is more functional on week-ends and during holiday periods
Try another example.
Quite often when the sh!t hits the fans in 'out of hours' time, the phones from the workers to the managers run hot.
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Actually Ken, when the sh!t hits the fan, I never contact any managers as that only slows down the process. I just liaise with my fellow workers and we all do our part to minimise disruption.
Then when the Managers return they waste hours going over what happened trying to find fault with what you did.
Nunc est bibendum
Bwahahahahahaha. Phones run hot to the managers? I've phoned Ops Control to speak to the duty captain precisely five times in the last five years. Three were fumes events where our procedures require us to call them after the fact, one was to tell him I was going to take an aeroplane for a taxi test because of a noewheel steering issue (QF drivers may recall why I CYA'd on this one) and the last one was to tell him why I wasn't accepting an aeroplane when the engineers insisted it was good to go. None of those situations were improved by engaging with the duty captain, they were just the person who 'needed to know'.
I also recall a colleague who was in a situation that was being 'managed' by someone back in the office. He said it was a crap fight and he found it very difficult to cut through all the BS going on back at the office and get them to realise the significance of what he was facing and the time constraints he had. Of course, office politics played a big part in there too in complicating the matter. Had they not been involved the situation would have been sorted about 6 hours earlier than it otherwise was..... and with a better outcome.
I also recall a colleague who was in a situation that was being 'managed' by someone back in the office. He said it was a crap fight and he found it very difficult to cut through all the BS going on back at the office and get them to realise the significance of what he was facing and the time constraints he had. Of course, office politics played a big part in there too in complicating the matter. Had they not been involved the situation would have been sorted about 6 hours earlier than it otherwise was..... and with a better outcome.
Ken,
In years of reading pprune i have never read a post, "The phones to the managers run red hot" that is so full of crap!
The absolute oopposite occurs, the front line staff just deal with it!
The airline industry and every one involved in it, not just airline staff, but ATC, safety officers, security etc, runs 24/7, managers run basically nine to five, 5 days a week, do the math, 40 hours a week, airline runs 148 hours a week!
In years of reading pprune i have never read a post, "The phones to the managers run red hot" that is so full of crap!
The absolute oopposite occurs, the front line staff just deal with it!
The airline industry and every one involved in it, not just airline staff, but ATC, safety officers, security etc, runs 24/7, managers run basically nine to five, 5 days a week, do the math, 40 hours a week, airline runs 148 hours a week!
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It's like when the thunderstorms went thru Perth & aircraft sat off the gate for 5 to 6 hours.
Perth rang central ops earlier and said stop sending aircraft to Perth.
What did they do.
Send all the aircraft to Perth.
Perth rang central ops earlier and said stop sending aircraft to Perth.
What did they do.
Send all the aircraft to Perth.
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All of the above simply amplify the conflict between the current management theory and reality in aviation.
Management theory as applied now seems to be to dumb down the "coalface" job so it is easier to employ cheap labour. It is Management who will decide what needs to be done and the end of the line doesn't have to think, but just do as he is told. Certainly that is my observation over the last decade or so.
Unfortunately, this just does not work in Aviation. What seems to burn at Management is that they can't dumb down Pilot / Engineer / Cabin Crew / Customer Service. The only way things will work is to have intelligent, skilled people in those positions.
All my interactions with Operations Control, IOC or whatever this weeks name is, re-inforce that. Whilst I have had sensible advice from Ops Control, their score is not good, running at about one good out of 10 bad pieces of advice. Rather than Ops Control controlling, the reverse is true - they just need to do what the people on the scene tell them.
The only way management can work in Airlines is with a "network" model, rather than "hierarchical" model. A good example is the book "It's Your Ship" about a destroyer in the US Navy.
N
Management theory as applied now seems to be to dumb down the "coalface" job so it is easier to employ cheap labour. It is Management who will decide what needs to be done and the end of the line doesn't have to think, but just do as he is told. Certainly that is my observation over the last decade or so.
Unfortunately, this just does not work in Aviation. What seems to burn at Management is that they can't dumb down Pilot / Engineer / Cabin Crew / Customer Service. The only way things will work is to have intelligent, skilled people in those positions.
All my interactions with Operations Control, IOC or whatever this weeks name is, re-inforce that. Whilst I have had sensible advice from Ops Control, their score is not good, running at about one good out of 10 bad pieces of advice. Rather than Ops Control controlling, the reverse is true - they just need to do what the people on the scene tell them.
The only way management can work in Airlines is with a "network" model, rather than "hierarchical" model. A good example is the book "It's Your Ship" about a destroyer in the US Navy.
N
With the arrogance of so-called frontline staff here who 'just get on with it', little wonder Qantas is nearly stuffed. If people here know so much, why aren't they in Head Office righting all the things that are wrong? 
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With the arrogance of so-called frontline staff here who 'just get on with it', little wonder Qantas is nearly stuffed. If people here know so much, why aren't they in Head Office righting all the things that are wrong?
Virtually all the problems are CAUSED by these Head Office Managers, the Airline WILL be stuffed if all the frontline staff just give up and stop doing their jobs.
This message is hidden because Ken Borough is on your ignore list.
Join Date: May 2001
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Ken, If you can get me the top job I guarantee I will do a better job than Allan.
I will do if for only two million a year for three years.
If you are interested and can get me the job PM me.
I will do if for only two million a year for three years.
If you are interested and can get me the job PM me.
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Ken,
Your postings (I won't call them contributions) approach the level of "troll". This is a shame since if you would only give reasoning then maybe I would consider taking your "viewpoint" into account. As it is, you just seem to sprout ignorant crap.
As far as "arrogant frontline staff" go .. well in the last couple of weeks, if your revered managers had listened to those arrogant "know-it-alls", QF would have saved itself over a million or two dollars of un-necessary pain in just one incident.
But then, you'll ignore what I say because it doesn't fit in with your view of the world, eh?
N
Your postings (I won't call them contributions) approach the level of "troll". This is a shame since if you would only give reasoning then maybe I would consider taking your "viewpoint" into account. As it is, you just seem to sprout ignorant crap.
As far as "arrogant frontline staff" go .. well in the last couple of weeks, if your revered managers had listened to those arrogant "know-it-alls", QF would have saved itself over a million or two dollars of un-necessary pain in just one incident.
But then, you'll ignore what I say because it doesn't fit in with your view of the world, eh?
N
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Here's a tip for ya, Ken. It isn't just QF that suffers from moronic managers as described above. In some cases, so does the opposition. It's just the extent and amount of entrenchment that varies!
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Ken,
As someone has pointed out it is not only Qantas that suffers like this, it is the whole Industry.
When I started in the Industry 50 years ago, 51 years ago next month, but now retired thankfully, it was very different.
In Engineering for example the prefered way of starting was a 5 year Apprenticeship, during which time you worked in all sorts of different departments gaining varied experience in all parts of Engineering as well as attending a Technical College.
You then became an AME and if you studied and did all your basics finally became an LAME.
You then if you wanted to after much more on job experience would move up the ladder, all this time the people above you would have also been through all this and were very experienced IF you needed any advice or help.
Sadly though some 20-25 years ago things changed, many places brought in people as Managers straight from University, obviously quite smart people, but they did not know the front of an Aircraft from the back of it.
This has become worse over time and I suspect this is the main problem now at Qantas.
As someone has pointed out it is not only Qantas that suffers like this, it is the whole Industry.
When I started in the Industry 50 years ago, 51 years ago next month, but now retired thankfully, it was very different.
In Engineering for example the prefered way of starting was a 5 year Apprenticeship, during which time you worked in all sorts of different departments gaining varied experience in all parts of Engineering as well as attending a Technical College.
You then became an AME and if you studied and did all your basics finally became an LAME.
You then if you wanted to after much more on job experience would move up the ladder, all this time the people above you would have also been through all this and were very experienced IF you needed any advice or help.
Sadly though some 20-25 years ago things changed, many places brought in people as Managers straight from University, obviously quite smart people, but they did not know the front of an Aircraft from the back of it.
This has become worse over time and I suspect this is the main problem now at Qantas.
Ken Ken Ken...
Time to head back to the viewing enclosure with your anorak, pen and paper noting down the regos...
Well, at least Ken, your consistent in your 'postings'.....
Time to head back to the viewing enclosure with your anorak, pen and paper noting down the regos...
Well, at least Ken, your consistent in your 'postings'.....
Same in the office airsupport, many started straight out of school as 15 year olds. Learnt on the jobs from older, experienced people who had worked for QF at many a station.
Many of these young one's moved up the ladder to some very high positions. Some of them did it with a stock standard TAFE certificate, some didn't even do that. Now, these same people would not have a chance. Neighbour tells me from the office that whilst the 'new managers' are Uni educated, majority wouldn't know their ar5e from their elbow, they believe they are there to educate the staff who have been there for 20 years plus.
Again from the neighbour, there are apparently plenty of consultants floating around the place working on projects who simply refuse to speak to older experienced people about the 'as is' because they, the consultants, know everything anyway.
Then there's the MBA's and most of them at QANTAS are according to neighbour, Mostly Bloody Awful and Managers By Accident - who no doubt, work 9 to 5 Mon to Fri.
Many of these young one's moved up the ladder to some very high positions. Some of them did it with a stock standard TAFE certificate, some didn't even do that. Now, these same people would not have a chance. Neighbour tells me from the office that whilst the 'new managers' are Uni educated, majority wouldn't know their ar5e from their elbow, they believe they are there to educate the staff who have been there for 20 years plus.
Again from the neighbour, there are apparently plenty of consultants floating around the place working on projects who simply refuse to speak to older experienced people about the 'as is' because they, the consultants, know everything anyway.
Then there's the MBA's and most of them at QANTAS are according to neighbour, Mostly Bloody Awful and Managers By Accident - who no doubt, work 9 to 5 Mon to Fri.
