MERGED: Alan's still not happy......
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You have a choice Fliegenmong, take the extra money, and open the taps to foreign investment, which will inevitably lead to loss of many Australian jobs, with catering going to the Philippines, ditto crew scheduling, and Engineering could well end up in China, but the airline still flies, hopefully with Australian tech and cabin crews. Or you can go Shortens way, and just let it bleed to death, slowly. And no jobs at all. Assuming there will be no change in management or the board. Right now it appears to be far%$d no matter which way it goes, unless Gail Kelly or some similar miracle turns up. Pointless blaming the Govt, it is and never was their problem, the management and board are the problem, starting with Dixon, the miracle being, it took ten years to shaft if completely. It might have been better in retrospect had it gone to the carpetbaggers, that Dixon wanted so desperately in the first place, some seven or so years ago. Instead it has just prolonged the misery.
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hopefully with Australian tech and cabin crews
Ida...why would Clifford or Abbott or Joyce or Hockey want that??
a '457' should neatly side step a need for 'Hopefully with Australian tech and cabin crew'
Leigh Clifford despises you, Alan Joyce despises you.....Tony Abbott's party gleefully accepts personal contributions from Leigh Clifford, Tony says QF needs it 's house in order, AJ hears that message as mass sackings...Aust tech crew are nothing in the eyes of Abbott and Clifford and Joyce, nothing other than very expensive...Clifford and Abbott are only interested in removing you., it's their ideology.......
It's not my personal opinion, not by a very long way.....but it is what Tony, Leigh, Alan, Joe, Eric and others want......now they can act in unison....27 Feb. probably shapes up as a Liberal Party / QF Management wet dream....
Edited to add 'I didn't vote for the feckers, or their almost identical ALP partners in crime'
Ida...why would Clifford or Abbott or Joyce or Hockey want that??
a '457' should neatly side step a need for 'Hopefully with Australian tech and cabin crew'
Leigh Clifford despises you, Alan Joyce despises you.....Tony Abbott's party gleefully accepts personal contributions from Leigh Clifford, Tony says QF needs it 's house in order, AJ hears that message as mass sackings...Aust tech crew are nothing in the eyes of Abbott and Clifford and Joyce, nothing other than very expensive...Clifford and Abbott are only interested in removing you., it's their ideology.......
It's not my personal opinion, not by a very long way.....but it is what Tony, Leigh, Alan, Joe, Eric and others want......now they can act in unison....27 Feb. probably shapes up as a Liberal Party / QF Management wet dream....
Edited to add 'I didn't vote for the feckers, or their almost identical ALP partners in crime'
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Ida, I can safely say catering would not be contracted to the Phillipines, the sandwiches would look like $hit by the time they got here!
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When does my fish and chip shop get its government guarantee? After all, I employ Flo, Suzie, big Kate and Charlie!
I've been meaning to tell you as the manager, your fish has been a bit rubbery of late, and you haven't been changing the oil, you have let your shop run down and your not even open when we want to eat, your service has been crass and instead of putting your money back into the business you have been sprucing up your brothel next door with the funds.
Now if you can just sack Flo, Suzie, Big Kate, and Charlie and ship the store overseas you would definitely qualify for a Government debt Guarantee!
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Its wedge politics.
They will move to repeal the Qantas Act. They are saying upfront that if that fails they will give Qantas the debt guarantee.
So the message to the public will be that the Labour Party has chosen to give Qantas a debt guarantee rather than repeal the Qantas Act.
They will move to repeal the Qantas Act. They are saying upfront that if that fails they will give Qantas the debt guarantee.
So the message to the public will be that the Labour Party has chosen to give Qantas a debt guarantee rather than repeal the Qantas Act.
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Angle of Attack, could you tell the difference? Catering will be done the cheapest way possible, as will scheduling and engineering. You can bet your cotton socks. It will make Jetstar look positively regal. Fliegenmong, and your solution is? You appear to be taking it personally, with all your pollie hates. I don't need to tell you the airline is in deep ****e, you are not going to get money from either the Govt. or the Opposition, indeed I imagine the Opposition/Unions, will come out with their usual solution, and order tools down, once the numbers are known. Always helps. And if they do, Joyce has a reason to pull the plug, and this time it will not be for two days. And then we will have a crisis of mammoth proportions in this country. Mate, I have been in this industry for nearly fifty years, have been belted by the best, (Hawke) Seen Govts. come and go, have had two airlines go under me, and had to leave the country, and yet was still able to fly on, and go when it suited me, not some bastard telling me to go. And this is the aim here. A solution so you blokes and girls can keep your jobs, and fly on. So back to your solution, lets have it.
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One of Alans objectives is to reduce the cost of labour.
Whilst the QF labour costs remain higher than what the Chinese can offer, the workers will always be plagued by management trying to drive down their wages and conditions.
Is anyone interested in working for Chinese wages and conditions in order to keep their job?
Whilst the QF labour costs remain higher than what the Chinese can offer, the workers will always be plagued by management trying to drive down their wages and conditions.
Is anyone interested in working for Chinese wages and conditions in order to keep their job?
short flights long nights
The objective of the whole western worlds management seems to be to drive down the cost of labour to 2 bowls of rice a day. As long as management keeps getting their multi million dollar salaries and bonuses.
One day, soon, something or someone is going to snap.
One day, soon, something or someone is going to snap.
The government debt guarantee will be very limited. QF will have a limited bond issue with a gov't guarantee (and a handsome interest charge). The taxpayer will not be liable to all QF debts, and the government will probably do quite well out of it.
What is of concern is what QF do with the capital raised from a gov't backed bond issue. Will they be able to use the money to back further Asian adventures? As economically illiterate as Tony Abbott is, I can't see a gov't debt guarantee coming without very specific conditions. Why do you think Virgin are so "me too" about a gov't debt guarantee? The money will have to go to investment in Australia. It might just be what saves many Qantas jobs and provides investment onshore.
What is of concern is what QF do with the capital raised from a gov't backed bond issue. Will they be able to use the money to back further Asian adventures? As economically illiterate as Tony Abbott is, I can't see a gov't debt guarantee coming without very specific conditions. Why do you think Virgin are so "me too" about a gov't debt guarantee? The money will have to go to investment in Australia. It might just be what saves many Qantas jobs and provides investment onshore.
If the government provides a debt guarantee and repeals the QSA, then it should be only under the condition of retaining a golden share. (despite whats happened in Europe)
Soon, the cupboard will be bare and we (taxpayer) will have sold our souls to the likes of the giant vampire squids of this world.
Soon, the cupboard will be bare and we (taxpayer) will have sold our souls to the likes of the giant vampire squids of this world.
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Qantas bad management went unchecked then rewarded, ASIC asleep at the wheel, again!
Alan WAS in negotiations with a bank in May 2013 for the sale of the JQ Asian franchises.
The deal fell thru as the offer price was not high enough.
Perhaps he may have dropped the price?
The deal fell thru as the offer price was not high enough.
Perhaps he may have dropped the price?
Some cracks in the pillars started to form after this news story went to air, creating some doubt, first the Jetstar Vietnam venture started sending out weird messages, then I recalled that senate inquiry where Nick X hit a home run with this Gem
Whoop Woop, What's going on I thought... (please note the videos are not in date order, they were compiled as memory markers for myself and before Q banned my first Youtube channel, already a year's work by that stage.)
My main purpose for doing the video channel was because a lot was going on and as we all know many pilots were not in the country when Qantas news stories went to air, I was hoping it would help them catch up when they got back home or have easier access via YouTube whilst on a layover..
I always believed J* was funded by QI from the start, but at the time it fell on deaf ears with the Labor government still grumpy over the grounding.. or so most of us thought.. Hindsight is a wonderful thing, but after watching the story below when it broke, it dawned on me that Clifford and AJ were using J* Asia as a tool to divert attention away from a secret "big picture" plan, at the time I didn't really know what they were up to, just a gut feeling I had.. I felt they were deliberately running QI mainline down, you guys knew it on here, I knew it but the mainstream media where just cruising along other than the ABC at the time, to their credit.
I think everyone on here would agree with me, things settled down a year or so after the grounding, Alan was happy and so were you guys on here up until the EK thing was announced.
Alan was so positive in this inside business interview about QI, things were looking up, so I thought.
From here on until today, Clifford & Joyce in my view have lead everyone on a wild goose chase, in business terms, the shareholders, the media and most importantly its customers, from one reporting period to the next with tons of mixed messages knowing all along the grand plan was to run down QI, bleeding it dry by funding the offshore Jetstar ventures creating slots which today I now believe will become QI MKII slots in five years time or less... These ba$tards are bean counters, they are cold hard nosed double speaking people who are proud of their behaviour. Sadly the Australian corporate world probably think they are fantastic as well, these MBA spin types are so far removed from garden variety Australians like most of us on here, they have lost sight of the damage they do to families (the staff that make it happen for them, particularly in the Qantas case.) when they make mistakes they run off like wimps to the biggest Grand Poobah's of suited wimps, Canberra, probably bribe them with chairman's club invites and upgrades to help get their mistakes covered once and for all..
And ASIC, forget them, they are only interested in small fry, Mum & Dad who owns a small chain of fish shops, crime: "having a go" at filling in the company registration form incorrectly because they were successful at selling too many chips.. unlike Clifford & Joyce, who appear to prefer $100,000,000 gambling chips, which are redeemable in Canberra after consumption.. And get a bonus for the inconvenience of flying on a dash 400.
Good to see the above video again, the double speak from both Abbott & Shorten is shameful (even old union Bill brushed aside the question "should Alan Joyce fall on his sword." (sic) Abbott was busy babbling on about keeping his house in order, err staying on script.. They knew what's going on at Qantas, they are all in on it in my view. A sad day for Australia.
At least Pascoe got it right the day before, better late than never I guess.
But alas, right on cue, this little gem in the Australian today, more double speak from all the collected Poobah's in Canberra rewarding Clifford & Joyce, who have been dining out on the good Qantas name, now well in her nineties.
CABINET ministers are preparing to give Qantas their “reluctant” approval for emergency help as the airline launches a radical overhaul to stem mounting losses to be revealed within days.
Support is building for a “standby debt facility” to cut the airline’s borrowing costs after it releases its financial report tomorrow, despite fierce objections to the idea within Coalition ranks yesterday. As the government drafts legislation to repeal the airline’s foreign ownership limits, it sees the debt guarantee as the only practical assistance in the short-term given the outright rejection of financial aid. The Qantas proposal was not on the federal cabinet agenda last night and Tony Abbott signalled yesterday it could take “further discussion in the weeks and months ahead” to finalise the outcome. But The Australian was told there were no other options than to set up a debt guarantee to help Qantas invest in new aircraft when ratings agencies had cut its bonds to junk status.
Mr Abbott declared yesterday that he wanted the airline to “flourish forever” and he acknowledged it was acting on its problems. “Qantas is doing its best to put its own house in order and this government will do what it can to ensure that it has a level playing field on which to compete, because that is the best thing that we can do for Qantas,” he told parliament.
Deputy Prime Minister Warren Truss revealed the government was “working on legislation” to level the playing field, a reference to scaling back the foreign ownership restrictions in the Qantas Sale Act.
The airline’s proposal to the government is for an early commitment to a debt guarantee to help the company borrow cash, given the difficulty of repealing the Qantas Sale Act in the short term when Labor, the Greens and others oppose the change.
Sending a general alert to corporate Australia earlier in the day, the Prime Minister warned against treating the government as an “ATM of last resort” and stood by his decisions to reject assistance for SPC Ardmona and other companies.
“It takes courage to say no, but once you say yes there is a queue a mile long,” Mr Abbott told his Coalition colleagues in a private meeting in Parliament House.
The Coalition’s internal dissent on Qantas broke out into the open, however, when Brisbane MP Teresa Gambaro railed at giving one airline emergency help that was denied to others.
Ms Gambaro said giving the airline a standby debt facility would give it an unfair advantage over competitors such as Virgin Australia.
“Qantas is an 800-pound gorilla and if we do this we will turn it into a godzilla,” she said, adding that if the debt guarantee was offered to Qantas it should also be offered to Virgin.
Another Liberal National Party MP, Warren Entsch, criticised Qantas management in a further sign of the frustration within the Coalition over the way the airline’s woes have created a political problem for the government.
The strongest attack on the company came from Labor MPs at their weekly caucus meeting in Parliament House, where six members spoke up against the company over its job cuts and its grounding of flights in the heat of an industrial dispute in 2012.
Those rebukes came after Transport Workers Union national secretary Tony Sheldon warned that a wholesale restructuring of the airline would turn it into “Aeroflot with a kangaroo on the tail”.
Qantas noted the “fresh speculation” over its fate but said the changes to be announced on Thursday would go ahead regardless of the government’s stance.
“We have said that we will be making some tough decisions in order to achieve $2 billion in cost savings over the next three years, which is a consequence of an unprecedented set of market conditions now facing Qantas,” the company said. “We’ve also said that we must take steps to reduce our costs regardless of whether the federal government acts on the uneven playing field in the Australian aviation market.”
Virgin Australia boss John Borghetti has written to all Coalition MPs urging them not to support a debt guarantee for Qantas on the grounds it would tilt the playing field in the bigger airline’s favour. Mr Borghetti’s position is that any standby debt facility for Qantas should also be extended to Virgin.
Despite the attacks on Qantas chief executive Alan Joyce and his team from caucus members yesterday, Labor is backing a debt guarantee for the company as a tangible form of assistance to head off the wider restricting that would come if the ownership rules were abolished.
Labor transport spokesman Anthony Albanese responded to the caucus complaints about Qantas by emphasising the need for the Qantas Sale Act to stay in place, noting that international air agreements required Australian ownership of the airline.
Bill Shorten told the caucus that the issues with Qantas management did not mean Labor should alter its support for Qantas workers.
Mr Truss sought to play down speculation about helping Qantas but said government was working on legislation. “If there is to be a response from the government, well that will have to take into account whatever Qantas is proposing to do on its own account,” he said.
Mr Truss said the government had “indicated an interest” in being able to legislate the easing of the curbs on Qantas and added: “We’re working on legislation to achieve that.”
Asked when the government would act, Mr Truss said: “Well, we’ll make those sorts of decisions after Thursday, but the government is philosophically attracted to level the playing field so that Qantas is able to co-operate fairly and equally with other airlines.” Cookies must be enabled. | The Australian
Support is building for a “standby debt facility” to cut the airline’s borrowing costs after it releases its financial report tomorrow, despite fierce objections to the idea within Coalition ranks yesterday. As the government drafts legislation to repeal the airline’s foreign ownership limits, it sees the debt guarantee as the only practical assistance in the short-term given the outright rejection of financial aid. The Qantas proposal was not on the federal cabinet agenda last night and Tony Abbott signalled yesterday it could take “further discussion in the weeks and months ahead” to finalise the outcome. But The Australian was told there were no other options than to set up a debt guarantee to help Qantas invest in new aircraft when ratings agencies had cut its bonds to junk status.
Mr Abbott declared yesterday that he wanted the airline to “flourish forever” and he acknowledged it was acting on its problems. “Qantas is doing its best to put its own house in order and this government will do what it can to ensure that it has a level playing field on which to compete, because that is the best thing that we can do for Qantas,” he told parliament.
Deputy Prime Minister Warren Truss revealed the government was “working on legislation” to level the playing field, a reference to scaling back the foreign ownership restrictions in the Qantas Sale Act.
The airline’s proposal to the government is for an early commitment to a debt guarantee to help the company borrow cash, given the difficulty of repealing the Qantas Sale Act in the short term when Labor, the Greens and others oppose the change.
Sending a general alert to corporate Australia earlier in the day, the Prime Minister warned against treating the government as an “ATM of last resort” and stood by his decisions to reject assistance for SPC Ardmona and other companies.
“It takes courage to say no, but once you say yes there is a queue a mile long,” Mr Abbott told his Coalition colleagues in a private meeting in Parliament House.
The Coalition’s internal dissent on Qantas broke out into the open, however, when Brisbane MP Teresa Gambaro railed at giving one airline emergency help that was denied to others.
Ms Gambaro said giving the airline a standby debt facility would give it an unfair advantage over competitors such as Virgin Australia.
“Qantas is an 800-pound gorilla and if we do this we will turn it into a godzilla,” she said, adding that if the debt guarantee was offered to Qantas it should also be offered to Virgin.
Another Liberal National Party MP, Warren Entsch, criticised Qantas management in a further sign of the frustration within the Coalition over the way the airline’s woes have created a political problem for the government.
The strongest attack on the company came from Labor MPs at their weekly caucus meeting in Parliament House, where six members spoke up against the company over its job cuts and its grounding of flights in the heat of an industrial dispute in 2012.
Those rebukes came after Transport Workers Union national secretary Tony Sheldon warned that a wholesale restructuring of the airline would turn it into “Aeroflot with a kangaroo on the tail”.
Qantas noted the “fresh speculation” over its fate but said the changes to be announced on Thursday would go ahead regardless of the government’s stance.
“We have said that we will be making some tough decisions in order to achieve $2 billion in cost savings over the next three years, which is a consequence of an unprecedented set of market conditions now facing Qantas,” the company said. “We’ve also said that we must take steps to reduce our costs regardless of whether the federal government acts on the uneven playing field in the Australian aviation market.”
Virgin Australia boss John Borghetti has written to all Coalition MPs urging them not to support a debt guarantee for Qantas on the grounds it would tilt the playing field in the bigger airline’s favour. Mr Borghetti’s position is that any standby debt facility for Qantas should also be extended to Virgin.
Despite the attacks on Qantas chief executive Alan Joyce and his team from caucus members yesterday, Labor is backing a debt guarantee for the company as a tangible form of assistance to head off the wider restricting that would come if the ownership rules were abolished.
Labor transport spokesman Anthony Albanese responded to the caucus complaints about Qantas by emphasising the need for the Qantas Sale Act to stay in place, noting that international air agreements required Australian ownership of the airline.
Bill Shorten told the caucus that the issues with Qantas management did not mean Labor should alter its support for Qantas workers.
Mr Truss sought to play down speculation about helping Qantas but said government was working on legislation. “If there is to be a response from the government, well that will have to take into account whatever Qantas is proposing to do on its own account,” he said.
Mr Truss said the government had “indicated an interest” in being able to legislate the easing of the curbs on Qantas and added: “We’re working on legislation to achieve that.”
Asked when the government would act, Mr Truss said: “Well, we’ll make those sorts of decisions after Thursday, but the government is philosophically attracted to level the playing field so that Qantas is able to co-operate fairly and equally with other airlines.” Cookies must be enabled. | The Australian
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Is anyone interested in working for Chinese wages and conditions in order to keep their job?
I'm interested in what will be the outcome for Qantas if the Government disposed of the QSA and provided a debt guarantee.
Presumably, Qantas could borrow a big bucket of money and a foreign entity(s) could invest in it. Are there investors waiting in the wings? What happens then?
What would the extra money be spent on...that would improve the outcome for Qantas ...and the people of Australia?
Will they buy more flying machines and open up new (Qantas) routes? Is that the plan?
I just don't see what the plan is for all this "new money".
Presumably, Qantas could borrow a big bucket of money and a foreign entity(s) could invest in it. Are there investors waiting in the wings? What happens then?
What would the extra money be spent on...that would improve the outcome for Qantas ...and the people of Australia?
Will they buy more flying machines and open up new (Qantas) routes? Is that the plan?
I just don't see what the plan is for all this "new money".
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Just saw our aviation expert GT on the morning show blaming previous management and unions for this mess. Also mentioned outdated work practices from the 60's for the cause of this mess. When quizzed upon the work practices/union side of things the best he could come up with was pilots requiring 3 vegetables with their meals. Pity they couldn't press him harder on this issue, I had to laugh.
The 5000 figure is nothing new. I heard managers talking about this months ago. To me it seems a slow bake by the company. True you have to stay focussed on the job, management often regurgitate the rheotoric of 'staying focussed' and the job. We try our best to maintain that. But their lack of empathy or compassion rarely goes beyond that.
When an axe is held above your neck for this amount of time it plays on your mind at work, driving home, at the dinner table, when your family is around, and when you go to bed at night. It disturbs your sleep, and it is usually the first thing on your mind when you wake up again. At work is just a small part of it.
All the best for today,tomorrow and thereafter guys, this is just the calm before the storm. I have a bad feeling tomorrow's announcement will bring a very turbulent future for the people that made this place great.
The 5000 figure is nothing new. I heard managers talking about this months ago. To me it seems a slow bake by the company. True you have to stay focussed on the job, management often regurgitate the rheotoric of 'staying focussed' and the job. We try our best to maintain that. But their lack of empathy or compassion rarely goes beyond that.
When an axe is held above your neck for this amount of time it plays on your mind at work, driving home, at the dinner table, when your family is around, and when you go to bed at night. It disturbs your sleep, and it is usually the first thing on your mind when you wake up again. At work is just a small part of it.
All the best for today,tomorrow and thereafter guys, this is just the calm before the storm. I have a bad feeling tomorrow's announcement will bring a very turbulent future for the people that made this place great.
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Said it before will say again, ditch A380and Jetstar. Have only B777-200LR/300 A330/B737-800 (or A320 not both).
B777-200LR SYD JFK direct then onto London back via SIN send another one back the other way DAILY, get rid of DFW. Keep LAX
Open Paris/Rome/Athens with 777 and be a proud proper International airline with your government money.
B777-200LR SYD JFK direct then onto London back via SIN send another one back the other way DAILY, get rid of DFW. Keep LAX
Open Paris/Rome/Athens with 777 and be a proud proper International airline with your government money.
Here here ngineer.
I half listened to that sickening interview. Why isn't anyone asking proper questions???? I know, I know, advertising budgets & Chairmans Lounge (which should be the Captains Club).
As with the shutdown, my idea was for everyone to refuse to go to work until the board and CEO resign. Watching this slow death through incompetence is like looking at the sun through a telescope.
I don't mind the debt guarantee, but it is guarantee of AJ's salary and bonus structure - a reward for total incompetence, and THAT is the galling thing.
Good luck everyone.
I half listened to that sickening interview. Why isn't anyone asking proper questions???? I know, I know, advertising budgets & Chairmans Lounge (which should be the Captains Club).
As with the shutdown, my idea was for everyone to refuse to go to work until the board and CEO resign. Watching this slow death through incompetence is like looking at the sun through a telescope.
I don't mind the debt guarantee, but it is guarantee of AJ's salary and bonus structure - a reward for total incompetence, and THAT is the galling thing.
Good luck everyone.
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Why the hell does everybody keep banging on about qantas needing money?
They have something in the order of 2.8 BILLION in the bank.
This is NOT about needing a cash injection!
They have something in the order of 2.8 BILLION in the bank.
This is NOT about needing a cash injection!
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Wouldn't it be nice to think the government debt guarantee will allow QF to purchase new aircraft to renew the mainline fleet.
Unfortunately. I don't think it will happen looking at current managements history.
Unfortunately. I don't think it will happen looking at current managements history.
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I guess another interesting question is "if" the qantas sales act is abolished and the government does promise to cover debt, could virgin approach Singapore airlines and etihad and say "ok" it's gloves off, lend us blah blah blah amount of dollars,buy another 20 777's to stick it to qantas......then what happens