VIRGIN AUSTRALIA EBA
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Bloody Hell,
So much for slow and steady gains over the years to, in time, develop a solid set of working conditions.
The problem with some of you, pammy & union to name a few, is you want to cherry pick the best bits of other operators conditions and combine them into some sort of super eba.
Given the time frame VB/VA has been around, the improvement in conditions has been ok in my opinion. When the company first started, Captains were on less the 100K (granted that was only a temporary arrangement), if voted up, by the end of the agreement a 737 Capt base salary is just shy of 218K. Not a bad improvement over 12 or so years.
Union, you say no real pay rise for the 737. I hate to tell you this but the company operate other aircraft as well and they had to be factored into this agreement.
Given most new starts, either direct entry or CRZFO, will start around level 1 on an ejet, they currently have a base of 84K. By the end of this agreement, they will be on level 3 conditions, just over 120K. 43% over the life of the agreement assuming they make level 3 by 2015. A level 2 ejet FO will increase just over 31%.
In the 737 case, a level 1 FO jumps from 105K to just under 142K, (assuming they make level 3 by 2015) over the life of the agreement, just under 35%. A level 2 jumps just under 24%.
A level 3 737 FO (thats me by the way), only gains 14%.
You're complaining that we're getting less in this offer. That's because you voted no last time, hence back pay gone.
330 FO now has a base of 130K, that becomes just under 157K over the life of the agreement.
I hear you say, "well thats **** compared to what Qantas get paid"
Well, you don't work for Qantas, or any other carrier you want to compare us too, you work for Virgin, and that's what is on offer. If you worked for Qantas you would probably still be stooging around with 2 bars on your shoulder complaining that you didn't have a future career in the company.
Crew meals, you have got to be kidding haven't you. I've worked for other carriers and what they served me on a plate had very little to do with my overall job satisfaction.
Duty travel in J class. Yes, would be fantastic to have it, but currently it is not on the table. Doesn't mean it can't be re-visited in the future, but for now it is not achievable. Move on.
Integration. Again, you had the chance for a much better one last vote. You said no. Guess what, next one was worse.
It's not a perfect offer, (I've yet to see one) but I believe it is a responsible one with some modest gains and one that goes some way to securing a little stability between now and when the next one is on the table, which isn't that far away mind you. I'll be voting yes and that isn't a decision born out of fear or intimidation. As I mentioned before, I have worked for other carriers, and you know what, life here is pretty bloody good.
So much for slow and steady gains over the years to, in time, develop a solid set of working conditions.
The problem with some of you, pammy & union to name a few, is you want to cherry pick the best bits of other operators conditions and combine them into some sort of super eba.
Given the time frame VB/VA has been around, the improvement in conditions has been ok in my opinion. When the company first started, Captains were on less the 100K (granted that was only a temporary arrangement), if voted up, by the end of the agreement a 737 Capt base salary is just shy of 218K. Not a bad improvement over 12 or so years.
Union, you say no real pay rise for the 737. I hate to tell you this but the company operate other aircraft as well and they had to be factored into this agreement.
Given most new starts, either direct entry or CRZFO, will start around level 1 on an ejet, they currently have a base of 84K. By the end of this agreement, they will be on level 3 conditions, just over 120K. 43% over the life of the agreement assuming they make level 3 by 2015. A level 2 ejet FO will increase just over 31%.
In the 737 case, a level 1 FO jumps from 105K to just under 142K, (assuming they make level 3 by 2015) over the life of the agreement, just under 35%. A level 2 jumps just under 24%.
A level 3 737 FO (thats me by the way), only gains 14%.
You're complaining that we're getting less in this offer. That's because you voted no last time, hence back pay gone.
330 FO now has a base of 130K, that becomes just under 157K over the life of the agreement.
I hear you say, "well thats **** compared to what Qantas get paid"
Well, you don't work for Qantas, or any other carrier you want to compare us too, you work for Virgin, and that's what is on offer. If you worked for Qantas you would probably still be stooging around with 2 bars on your shoulder complaining that you didn't have a future career in the company.
Crew meals, you have got to be kidding haven't you. I've worked for other carriers and what they served me on a plate had very little to do with my overall job satisfaction.
Duty travel in J class. Yes, would be fantastic to have it, but currently it is not on the table. Doesn't mean it can't be re-visited in the future, but for now it is not achievable. Move on.
Integration. Again, you had the chance for a much better one last vote. You said no. Guess what, next one was worse.
It's not a perfect offer, (I've yet to see one) but I believe it is a responsible one with some modest gains and one that goes some way to securing a little stability between now and when the next one is on the table, which isn't that far away mind you. I'll be voting yes and that isn't a decision born out of fear or intimidation. As I mentioned before, I have worked for other carriers, and you know what, life here is pretty bloody good.
Last edited by Open Descent; 16th Mar 2013 at 00:31.
Regarding 'Open Descent's post,
When your own pilots start making statements like "that's not on offer" and "that's not on the table" you have an issue with 'managing expectations'. That's normally a management role in negotiations.
Here's a post from 'Open Descent', dated one year ago:
"Open Descent
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Brisbane
Posts: 6
You are able to hold off for the next offer, however the next offer is a must accept scenario.This was pointed out to me when I was offered a position last year."
'Take the first offer, or the second will be worse' ...... is a classic approach. It shortens negotiations, instills fear, divides the pilot group, and makes the likelyhood of arbitration less likely. It also keeps pilot conditions low. You are in a negotiation, not a hostage situation.
When your own pilots start making statements like "that's not on offer" and "that's not on the table" you have an issue with 'managing expectations'. That's normally a management role in negotiations.
Here's a post from 'Open Descent', dated one year ago:
"Open Descent
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Brisbane
Posts: 6
You are able to hold off for the next offer, however the next offer is a must accept scenario.This was pointed out to me when I was offered a position last year."
'Take the first offer, or the second will be worse' ...... is a classic approach. It shortens negotiations, instills fear, divides the pilot group, and makes the likelyhood of arbitration less likely. It also keeps pilot conditions low. You are in a negotiation, not a hostage situation.
Open Descent,
Well said.
For the last two pages we have had the vocal minority complaining that we have not acheived everything that they were told we would achieve by a certain Union.
Well guess what, welcome to the real world!
Having earnt over $250,000 plus allowances plus super last year on the B737 I don't think we are doing too badly.
By July 2015 A330 Captains will have a $57,000 pay rise
By July 2015 B737 Captains will have a $19,000 pay rise
By July 2015 E190 Captains will have a $27,000 pay rise
Thats not too bad for just over two years.
Ask you neighbour what they expect?
Do we have to work one day more or one day harder........ No
Is J Class travel achievable this time round........No
Will it be possible next time ......Maybe
Have we put in place an EBA that will be built on in two years time....Yes
I notice that none of the posters who are complaining about how bad it is are either involved in the negotiations nor electing to vote with their feet.
Either option may provide a better environment for us all but I would suggest that neither will be taken up!
I notice also they have absolutely no idea of how they are going to acheive their demands of more money, fine dinning, J class travel, and a seniority system that satisfies all pilots. All they offer is that a vote No will get them everything they demand.
By all means tell us how bad it is here in Virgin but for most of us we don't want to be anywhere else and we think we are doing pretty well.
Funny how 'that' same Union is now supporting what amounts to the same EBA ableit with no back pay and an intergration that respects the commitments made to VAI crews.
Welcome to the real world!
Well said.
For the last two pages we have had the vocal minority complaining that we have not acheived everything that they were told we would achieve by a certain Union.
Well guess what, welcome to the real world!
Having earnt over $250,000 plus allowances plus super last year on the B737 I don't think we are doing too badly.
By July 2015 A330 Captains will have a $57,000 pay rise
By July 2015 B737 Captains will have a $19,000 pay rise
By July 2015 E190 Captains will have a $27,000 pay rise
Thats not too bad for just over two years.
Ask you neighbour what they expect?
Do we have to work one day more or one day harder........ No
Is J Class travel achievable this time round........No
Will it be possible next time ......Maybe
Have we put in place an EBA that will be built on in two years time....Yes
I notice that none of the posters who are complaining about how bad it is are either involved in the negotiations nor electing to vote with their feet.
Either option may provide a better environment for us all but I would suggest that neither will be taken up!
I notice also they have absolutely no idea of how they are going to acheive their demands of more money, fine dinning, J class travel, and a seniority system that satisfies all pilots. All they offer is that a vote No will get them everything they demand.
By all means tell us how bad it is here in Virgin but for most of us we don't want to be anywhere else and we think we are doing pretty well.
Funny how 'that' same Union is now supporting what amounts to the same EBA ableit with no back pay and an intergration that respects the commitments made to VAI crews.
Welcome to the real world!
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JPJP
Thanks for your response.
As far me having a problem with managing expectations, mine are pretty realistic actually. Knowing the change to the business the new boss was trying to make, and given his track record for doing what he says he'll do, I had no misunderstanding that J class duty travel was not an achievable option.
Perhaps those that had a problem with 'managing expectations' were those that put out a fairly outrageous log of claims, instilling in those that read them a false hope that things like J class duty travel were there for the taking.
As far as your second point, which related to that post you dug up from a year ago, what is the point you are trying to make? Are you aware I was referring to an initial job offer not an EBA contract?
And that aside, are you assuming that I took the first offer under duress or out of fear or intimidation?
I was offered a spot with the company back then, however I turned it down in the hope of a better offer the second time around. I was successful in that my second offer was the one I was after. However, I was under no illusions what turning down that first offer meant. The company made it clear that after the second offer there would be no more offers. My 'expectations' were based on the circumstances I was able to operate in.
I made that post in response to a question somebody made at the time that was in a similar position to the one I found myself in. Unlike yourself, rather than tell them what to do, I merely posted what was said to me by the person on the other end of the phone in the hope that whoever may read it could make up their own mind.
Try and apprise yourself of the facts JPJP before you shoot off at the lip. As a self confessed
, make sure the stones you are lobbing my way don't shatter your glass walls on the way over.
Thanks for your response.
As far me having a problem with managing expectations, mine are pretty realistic actually. Knowing the change to the business the new boss was trying to make, and given his track record for doing what he says he'll do, I had no misunderstanding that J class duty travel was not an achievable option.
Perhaps those that had a problem with 'managing expectations' were those that put out a fairly outrageous log of claims, instilling in those that read them a false hope that things like J class duty travel were there for the taking.
As far as your second point, which related to that post you dug up from a year ago, what is the point you are trying to make? Are you aware I was referring to an initial job offer not an EBA contract?
And that aside, are you assuming that I took the first offer under duress or out of fear or intimidation?
I was offered a spot with the company back then, however I turned it down in the hope of a better offer the second time around. I was successful in that my second offer was the one I was after. However, I was under no illusions what turning down that first offer meant. The company made it clear that after the second offer there would be no more offers. My 'expectations' were based on the circumstances I was able to operate in.
I made that post in response to a question somebody made at the time that was in a similar position to the one I found myself in. Unlike yourself, rather than tell them what to do, I merely posted what was said to me by the person on the other end of the phone in the hope that whoever may read it could make up their own mind.
Try and apprise yourself of the facts JPJP before you shoot off at the lip. As a self confessed
outside observer and fellow LCC pilot working in the U.S.
Last edited by Open Descent; 16th Mar 2013 at 02:47.
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ad-astra, open descent et al
As A330 pilots are employed "principally" as short haul; under the proposed agreement they could be rostered for an international single sector of up to 14 hours duty as two crew.
No augmented ops, no onboard crew rest and if you're paxing then you are forbidden from touching a business class seat.
That's what your "real world" looks like.
As A330 pilots are employed "principally" as short haul; under the proposed agreement they could be rostered for an international single sector of up to 14 hours duty as two crew.
No augmented ops, no onboard crew rest and if you're paxing then you are forbidden from touching a business class seat.
That's what your "real world" looks like.
Last edited by psycho joe; 16th Mar 2013 at 04:42.
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So you guys are really wanting to push a yes vote despite the overall money being less than the first offer? Just because the company says each time, vote yes now or we offer less next time? and you do it??
And second point, this offer in regards to integration is worse off than first for the VAA FOs is that correct as well?
What am I missing here?
And second point, this offer in regards to integration is worse off than first for the VAA FOs is that correct as well?
What am I missing here?
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As A330 pilots are employed "principally" as short haul; under the proposed agreement they could be rostered for an international single sector of up to 14 hours duty as two crew
So now we are applying FDP restrictions covered under a short haul award and applying them to international operations that don't exist yet?
Rather than bleating on about crew meals and business class, perhaps we should be concentrating on additions to the award that cover the above example, ie if an aircraft is to be engaged in long haul operations then it is covered under a long haul award, and its related FDP restrictions.
In any case I think you are putting the cart well and truly before the horse.
Last edited by Open Descent; 16th Mar 2013 at 05:29.
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So now we are applying FDP restrictions covered under a short haul award and applying them to international operations that don't exist yet?
Rather than bleating on about crew meals and business class, perhaps we should be concentrating on additions to the award that cover the above example, ie if an aircraft is to be engaged in long haul operations then it is covered under a long haul award, and its related FDP restrictions.
Rather than bleating on about crew meals and business class, perhaps we should be concentrating on additions to the award that cover the above example, ie if an aircraft is to be engaged in long haul operations then it is covered under a long haul award, and its related FDP restrictions.
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So it's pretty simple then, can't change said document, if you don't like it then vote no, if you do, then vote yes...
No point whining about the what if's just vote and be done with it. My guess is that most will not have the stomach to say no for the fear of what the company may or may not offer next time, I know what I would be doing...
I think the unions have done the best they can, can't get blood from a stone, and do you not think that the negotiators have tried their hardest to get the things that didn't make it in...
But, if you don't like it then vote no. Simple really.
No point whining about the what if's just vote and be done with it. My guess is that most will not have the stomach to say no for the fear of what the company may or may not offer next time, I know what I would be doing...
I think the unions have done the best they can, can't get blood from a stone, and do you not think that the negotiators have tried their hardest to get the things that didn't make it in...
But, if you don't like it then vote no. Simple really.
Last edited by always inverted; 16th Mar 2013 at 06:45.
Psycho Joe,
Your comments relating to the 14 hour duty give the impression that this is new.
Its in our current EBA.
I have not seen you actively campaigning against this provision over the last 5 years?
How many times has it been used?
How many times have you been rostered to maximum duty period since the current EBA has been in place?
How about we start applying a little bit of common sense here and acknowledge the realities of what is on offer and what has been occurring over the last 5 years.
Misrepresent what is on offer and what we are already operating under and you do your argument no favours.
An awful lot of cherry picking about what could happen but from 10 years of service with this company I am more than comfortable to offer as much good faith as they have over the years.
A lot of red faces and disappointment from those who expected this negotiation to be a push over. Now they scream how the company has not been negotiating in good faith when their unrealistic promises can't be achieved.
I (and what I think a majority of VAA pilots are about to agree) am not willing to watch this debacle by amateurs continue for the sake of "substandard" crew meals and the loss of face of by a union that was out of its depth.
This whole exercise should have been resolved last year and a majority of pilots are about to finally put it to bed.
Your comments relating to the 14 hour duty give the impression that this is new.
Its in our current EBA.
I have not seen you actively campaigning against this provision over the last 5 years?
How many times has it been used?
How many times have you been rostered to maximum duty period since the current EBA has been in place?
How about we start applying a little bit of common sense here and acknowledge the realities of what is on offer and what has been occurring over the last 5 years.
Misrepresent what is on offer and what we are already operating under and you do your argument no favours.
An awful lot of cherry picking about what could happen but from 10 years of service with this company I am more than comfortable to offer as much good faith as they have over the years.
A lot of red faces and disappointment from those who expected this negotiation to be a push over. Now they scream how the company has not been negotiating in good faith when their unrealistic promises can't be achieved.
I (and what I think a majority of VAA pilots are about to agree) am not willing to watch this debacle by amateurs continue for the sake of "substandard" crew meals and the loss of face of by a union that was out of its depth.
This whole exercise should have been resolved last year and a majority of pilots are about to finally put it to bed.
I reckon you might find that both the unions were happy with the clauses around "principally" engaged in domestic operations as it keeps the A330 flying for the domestic pilots. If it was written in a different way it would go to the international guys, which I didn't think the domestic guys wanted.
Can't please all the people all the time
Can't please all the people all the time
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Mr star,
This is the first EBA that will cover the A330.
Try reading the document instead of spouting bs rhetoric and try turning down the constant emoting with every post.
Snake charma you may be right, then again you may be revisiting your words In the not too distant future. I truly hope that this wont be a case of "told you so".
This is the first EBA that will cover the A330.
Try reading the document instead of spouting bs rhetoric and try turning down the constant emoting with every post.
Snake charma you may be right, then again you may be revisiting your words In the not too distant future. I truly hope that this wont be a case of "told you so".
Last edited by psycho joe; 16th Mar 2013 at 11:22.
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Gday Psycho J
If have indeed read and then re-read the FAQ's, in particular the section regarding 'principally' with regards to the 330 operation.
I take your point that the company 'could' roster the crew for a 14 hr TOD with a two man crew, however, the example given in the same FAQ's gives an example of why the case you suggest wont happen as well. From a personal point of view I have yet to see the company exploit the current working conditions, so Im not prepared to expect them to do any different this time around.
You are quite correct though in saying it comes down to interpretation, I guess I see it a little differently.
I believe Ad Astra was making a similar point to the one I made in my earlier post with regards to this example as well. Under certain conditions we can already be rostered for a 14hr TOD with two crew on a single sector day. The company 'can' do it, but i've yet to see it, and this is pertaining to an agreement that has been around since 2007.
I'm also pretty sure he has read and understands the document in front of him, more so than a lot of people if some of the posts here are anything to go by!
If have indeed read and then re-read the FAQ's, in particular the section regarding 'principally' with regards to the 330 operation.
I take your point that the company 'could' roster the crew for a 14 hr TOD with a two man crew, however, the example given in the same FAQ's gives an example of why the case you suggest wont happen as well. From a personal point of view I have yet to see the company exploit the current working conditions, so Im not prepared to expect them to do any different this time around.
You are quite correct though in saying it comes down to interpretation, I guess I see it a little differently.
I believe Ad Astra was making a similar point to the one I made in my earlier post with regards to this example as well. Under certain conditions we can already be rostered for a 14hr TOD with two crew on a single sector day. The company 'can' do it, but i've yet to see it, and this is pertaining to an agreement that has been around since 2007.
I'm also pretty sure he has read and understands the document in front of him, more so than a lot of people if some of the posts here are anything to go by!
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OD, I appreciate your opinion and I sincerely hope that I'm wrong. That said, the company has made it clear that international sectors rostered greater than 8 hrs will still fall under the domestic short haul EBA. The company's refusal to discuss augmented ops with both unions and the consultation clause leave me concerned. We have little recourse post signing. Both unions are aware, a wait-and-see approach seems to be the preferred option.
We have little recourse post signing
Psycho Joe, not sure where you get your info from but you couldn't be further from the truth regarding augmented ops.
I spoke with someone who should know and the company presented an augmented crew section but both the unions wanted it removed because they didn't like the CASA NPRM on which the company section was based.
To say the company refused to discuss it is horse****.
And yes the company made it clear that the 8 hr or more sectors would remain on the domestic EBA because that is what both unions demanded. I am told that the concern was that the international EBA would be used, which meant the international pilot group not the domestic pilot group.
I spoke with someone who should know and the company presented an augmented crew section but both the unions wanted it removed because they didn't like the CASA NPRM on which the company section was based.
To say the company refused to discuss it is horse****.
And yes the company made it clear that the 8 hr or more sectors would remain on the domestic EBA because that is what both unions demanded. I am told that the concern was that the international EBA would be used, which meant the international pilot group not the domestic pilot group.