JHAS Keeps 457's over Local workers in new Redundancy round
Join Date: Nov 1999
Posts: 187
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Pacific,
Thankfully I dont work there and have to put up with you but there it is for all to see why JHAS is doomed.
But lets just look at it.
So with what customers are JHAS going to survive? They aren't is the answer. Everyone has just given up.
Thankfully I dont work there and have to put up with you but there it is for all to see why JHAS is doomed.
But lets just look at it.
- Virgin all but gone. Work that JHAS would have done now done in NZ and elsewhere.
- Tiger all but gone. AMSA doing line maintenance and heavy maintenance done in Singapore.
- Skywest also gone to Singapore.
- Jetstar all but gone overseas.
- Skytraders all but gone. Heavy maintenance to Singapore, Line maintenance to themselves and now have their own CAR30 approval to do minor checks if they so choose.
- QANTAS -JHAS never had any to start with.
So with what customers are JHAS going to survive? They aren't is the answer. Everyone has just given up.
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Vodka
Posts: 36
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Brace yourself.....
Well, I don't work for JHAS either but I do side with marlin on this. The thing is, the owners of JHAS have invested a lot of money to employ 350 odd aircraft maintenance people for the last four years when it would have probably now been turned into some warehouse or storage facility. They gave it a go for no other reason but to try and make it work, so maybe it isn't, maybe it is. What I can say is that while this industry is struggling all around, airlines just won't pay a premium for maintenance at the expense of the competitive market they operate in. It's a trend unfortunately that won't be reversed.
What I can guess about that customer list for what it's worth...as marlin pointed out, the staff at JHAS are paid competitive wages, which means that operators that don't want to pay $140+ an hour for heavy maintenance choose to go to places where it's cheaper. All of those customers are not paying more than JHAS, so I suspect their decisions are price sensitive. Hasn't Virgin always had heavy checks sent to NZ, even from back as far as 2002? Now they are alliance partners I guess you would only expect it to grow. JQ started sending checks to ST years ago, Tiger as well. Line is probably gone to AMSA because they are all in the same family. Skytraders......who, oh yeah I'm sure they're upset about that. Skywest get all their other heavy checks done in singers, so why stop paying $30 an hour and send it to JHAS? I heard JHAS have about 30 line customers, that's probably where the business does well and then has to prop up the rest. Low volume, highly skilled activities over short periods of time is where the industry can continue to focus on in Australia. After all, the international airlines are frowing here all the time, and while QF isnt interested someone has to fill the gap, and I sure dont want it to be the singaporean scab outfit....more about them later. We, as a group should be defending our last frontier of professionism in Line Maintenenace as clearly, the days of 80-100 thousand man hour checks at high rates are gone. For an airline it's tough doing it yourself while your competitors don't, let alone a third party that pays the same rates and has to make a profit. Sorry folks, it doesn't work.
Romulus said smarter not harder. Agree totally, this thread was about the retention of migrant skills at the expense of local workers. Unfortunately you can't discriminate like that. They are individuals with families that came here in a system that allowed them to, it's not JHAS's issue. Did JHAS do it deliberately or did they do what the customer asked with tight deadlines to bring in a first of type aircraft. Marlin said they have trained, so whats the issue? I'm sure that customer could have given that work to the same line maintenance provider as the B777s, oh yeah that's a Singaporean company that allegedly flaunt the visa laws to conduct transits on their own fleet and while the poor guy is here on a few bucks a day, just do a couple of transits on these other customers while your here. Then fly him back before anyone finds out. Now that is the crap we should be focussing on. The positive thing is that customer gave the work to JHAS, how many of our fellow brothers are 457s, I bet the ratio is more locals now, maybe not so when they started. Yep, if our CASA slugs had woken up years ago our industry would have been better prepared.
I say JHAS is exactly what we need, you say close it down. Well if it does go, we may start sitting up thinking maybe we should have backed it. It sounds as though the ALAEA may not be getting dues from a handful of 457 guys at JHAS. Theres probably a lot of guys there that do and always have and maybe a few that would be mystified their dues go to a guy that wished it would close. Figure that one out? Maybe I was mistaken and that's not what I read.....can't be bothered looking for it now.
Well, I don't work for JHAS either but I do side with marlin on this. The thing is, the owners of JHAS have invested a lot of money to employ 350 odd aircraft maintenance people for the last four years when it would have probably now been turned into some warehouse or storage facility. They gave it a go for no other reason but to try and make it work, so maybe it isn't, maybe it is. What I can say is that while this industry is struggling all around, airlines just won't pay a premium for maintenance at the expense of the competitive market they operate in. It's a trend unfortunately that won't be reversed.
What I can guess about that customer list for what it's worth...as marlin pointed out, the staff at JHAS are paid competitive wages, which means that operators that don't want to pay $140+ an hour for heavy maintenance choose to go to places where it's cheaper. All of those customers are not paying more than JHAS, so I suspect their decisions are price sensitive. Hasn't Virgin always had heavy checks sent to NZ, even from back as far as 2002? Now they are alliance partners I guess you would only expect it to grow. JQ started sending checks to ST years ago, Tiger as well. Line is probably gone to AMSA because they are all in the same family. Skytraders......who, oh yeah I'm sure they're upset about that. Skywest get all their other heavy checks done in singers, so why stop paying $30 an hour and send it to JHAS? I heard JHAS have about 30 line customers, that's probably where the business does well and then has to prop up the rest. Low volume, highly skilled activities over short periods of time is where the industry can continue to focus on in Australia. After all, the international airlines are frowing here all the time, and while QF isnt interested someone has to fill the gap, and I sure dont want it to be the singaporean scab outfit....more about them later. We, as a group should be defending our last frontier of professionism in Line Maintenenace as clearly, the days of 80-100 thousand man hour checks at high rates are gone. For an airline it's tough doing it yourself while your competitors don't, let alone a third party that pays the same rates and has to make a profit. Sorry folks, it doesn't work.
Romulus said smarter not harder. Agree totally, this thread was about the retention of migrant skills at the expense of local workers. Unfortunately you can't discriminate like that. They are individuals with families that came here in a system that allowed them to, it's not JHAS's issue. Did JHAS do it deliberately or did they do what the customer asked with tight deadlines to bring in a first of type aircraft. Marlin said they have trained, so whats the issue? I'm sure that customer could have given that work to the same line maintenance provider as the B777s, oh yeah that's a Singaporean company that allegedly flaunt the visa laws to conduct transits on their own fleet and while the poor guy is here on a few bucks a day, just do a couple of transits on these other customers while your here. Then fly him back before anyone finds out. Now that is the crap we should be focussing on. The positive thing is that customer gave the work to JHAS, how many of our fellow brothers are 457s, I bet the ratio is more locals now, maybe not so when they started. Yep, if our CASA slugs had woken up years ago our industry would have been better prepared.
I say JHAS is exactly what we need, you say close it down. Well if it does go, we may start sitting up thinking maybe we should have backed it. It sounds as though the ALAEA may not be getting dues from a handful of 457 guys at JHAS. Theres probably a lot of guys there that do and always have and maybe a few that would be mystified their dues go to a guy that wished it would close. Figure that one out? Maybe I was mistaken and that's not what I read.....can't be bothered looking for it now.
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Sydney
Age: 60
Posts: 92
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
That's not what we are hearing, the work is coming out of JHAS due to poor quality and the associated safety concerns.
Work is going overseas at greater overall cost to find a suitable alternate.
The airlines that are listed above not only left JHAS, they slammed the door on the way out and they all talk to each other about it.
Work is going overseas at greater overall cost to find a suitable alternate.
The airlines that are listed above not only left JHAS, they slammed the door on the way out and they all talk to each other about it.
Last edited by VBA Engineer; 9th Oct 2012 at 11:47. Reason: spelling
Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: In the bilges
Posts: 26
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
pacificmarlin
- Your contempt for your fellow workers and your failure to grasp the English language gives us no doubt as to your origins.
If you were as good as you claim you are, you would be still happily employed in your own Country. You have obviously burnt those bridges and are now intent on setting fire to them here as well.
Enjoy your stay! Don't let the door hit you on the way out.
- Your contempt for your fellow workers and your failure to grasp the English language gives us no doubt as to your origins.
If you were as good as you claim you are, you would be still happily employed in your own Country. You have obviously burnt those bridges and are now intent on setting fire to them here as well.
Enjoy your stay! Don't let the door hit you on the way out.
Last edited by NuckingFuts; 9th Oct 2012 at 22:22.
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Twilight Zone
Posts: 59
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Wellwellwell.....the reason for allowing 457 Visa workers into the country has been supposedly about alleged skills shortages in the Industry. Have you been in a coma and not seen the hundreds and hundreds of recent retrenchments at Qantas and Forstaff? Where's the skills shortage now or are you still asleep? I reckon you'd see it differently if it was you being told you're finished whilst someone on a 457 remained doing your job.
Beat your chest as loud as you like.....your hypocrisy is louder!
Beat your chest as loud as you like.....your hypocrisy is louder!
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: aviation heaven, australia
Posts: 215
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Its about nationalism, its about Australian citizen jobs. A 457 Visa is for a skill shortage which does not exist. I'm sick of people jumping on the racist, xenophobic discrimination train every time something is mentioned about any 457 guy/girl. No one here has mentioned race. The only thing we all care about is jobs and doing the right thing by Aussies.
As for JHAS, talk to anyone at Virgin Tech Services, talk to anyone at Jetstar or Qantas in Tulla. The quality is terrible. Simple short cuts brought around by idiot management and poor quality in recruitment.
You are an idiot if you think they pay $30/hr in places like Singapore or Malaysia. That is not how they make there money.
As for JHAS, talk to anyone at Virgin Tech Services, talk to anyone at Jetstar or Qantas in Tulla. The quality is terrible. Simple short cuts brought around by idiot management and poor quality in recruitment.
You are an idiot if you think they pay $30/hr in places like Singapore or Malaysia. That is not how they make there money.
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Melbourne
Age: 57
Posts: 628
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by empire4
You are an idiot if you think they pay $30/hr in places like Singapore or Malaysia. That is not how they make there money.
That's not just salary, that's with all on costs for employing people plus company overheads, supporting staff etc.
To break even in the Australian environment where on costs (without any company overhead) are approximately 30% then a LAME would be earning about 25 per hour.
There's no way that can be done and nor should it.
Problem is on a 100,000 hour check when you look at 15,000 LAME hours (assuming a 15% LAME requirement is a bit low at roughly 1 in 7 I admit but not too far off the mark) then on a straight wages component of even $100,000 per Australian LAME then you're looking at about $65 per hour (again, no overhead allocation, just straight up LAME cost) and that $30 differential translates to $450,000.
Just for LAME time.
That's what the industry is up against in this country, and whilst there is no excuse or reason for poor quality if any form of heavy maintenance is to survive in Australia we need to figure out how to do good quality checks in a more efficient manner.
You can bark at me all you like that the aviation industry has developed these processes over 100 years but unless we somehow find a way to really deliver value to the Australian aviation industry then only very minor checks and line activities will remain. It's that simple. I don't know what the answer is, doing what I do I see a large number of businesses in trouble, most of them go under. JHAS was one that I reckon could be saved, and aviation as an industry is one of the few I found really interesting and JHAS in particular holds something of an emotional grip on me (hence me sticking around this forum 5 years after I left JH). But for whatever reason it just hasn't worked as well as it perhaps could have. I'd love to know the reasons for it, and if nothing else it would give the current management team some kind of insight into what people are thinking. Equally it's not that easy to trust, I get that. But somebody has to give it a go, simple as that.
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Melbourne
Age: 57
Posts: 628
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by VBA Eng
That's not what we are hearing, the work is coming out of JHAS due to poor quality and the associated safety concerns.
Work is going overseas at greater overall cost to find a suitable alternate.
Work is going overseas at greater overall cost to find a suitable alternate.
Surely somebody from JHAS is getting in to see the relevant people at VBA to get a review of the output from the client perspective and putting corrective action in place?
VBA have a vested interest in JHAS succeeding, if it fails then the semi LCC is building to their cost base which is anathema to VBA's long term profitability and future. That is obviously detrimental to what VBA want, it is clearly detrimental to JHAS, so wtf is being done to correct it?
Jesus wept, if that facility is closed and the certifications lost then it will never reopen. The only reason it could be turned into an MRO was because it already existed and was operating, the cost of starting again would destroy any business case.
Frick me, this is a serious capability that needs saving. Are you seriously suggesting nobody in either camp is doing anything about it?
Problem is on a 100,000 hour check when you look at 15,000 LAME hours (assuming a 15% LAME requirement is a bit low at roughly 1 in 7 I admit but not too far off the mark)
And if JHAS has quality problems then it must be horrendous compared the total sh!t coming out of some of the overseas alternatives.
I believe VA really do want JHAS to succeed and want to continue to use them. There are only so many quality issues you can put up with though. I believe there is quite a list!
You can only beat your head against the wall so many times before you have to implement Plan B.
You can only beat your head against the wall so many times before you have to implement Plan B.
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Melbourne
Age: 57
Posts: 628
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by MM
I believe VA really do want JHAS to succeed and want to continue to use them. There are only so many quality issues you can put up with though. I believe there is quite a list!
You can only beat your head against the wall so many times before you have to implement Plan B.
You can only beat your head against the wall so many times before you have to implement Plan B.
Fricking heck, is anyone from JHAS talking to the big kids at VBA to actually resolve all of this stuff???
Well, talking to one of VA's reps, I was told VA, at one stage, was getting really cheesed off that their aircraft were being damaged on an almost weekly basis. The low light being the damaged wing tip on the brand new, never seen service, VA A330 recently.
Another observation that was made, in respect to the diversity of imported labour, was practice of the different ethnic groups speaking their own languages on the job. It was pointed out that this is very bad for safety, as everyone on the aircraft should know and understand what others are doing. In fact the rep said, in his experience overseas, it should be mandated that one language only be used on the job, in this case english.
Another observation that was made, in respect to the diversity of imported labour, was practice of the different ethnic groups speaking their own languages on the job. It was pointed out that this is very bad for safety, as everyone on the aircraft should know and understand what others are doing. In fact the rep said, in his experience overseas, it should be mandated that one language only be used on the job, in this case english.
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Brisbane
Age: 47
Posts: 4
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Sounds like the situation at JHAS is deteriorating rapidly.....I just hope it does not get to the point where engineers are physically assaulting each other on the line due to their various indifferences as happened recently 
its sad times we live in when that starts happening.
its sad times we live in when that starts happening.
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: aintsaying
Posts: 140
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The title of this thread is all about 457 visa persons.
Of all the areas where layoffs are currently occuring right now, how many of them work beside the 457 visa guys? Last I herd the majority of the layoffs are at heavy maintenance. The 457 visa guys work on line and they all have A330 ratings.
Now I agree its bulls#$%t that when layoffs occur locals are hit first and not the 457 visa guys. But under the immigration laws in Australia the 457 visa guys are protected for 5 yrs. And even if the employer/sponsor did lay them off their relocation back to their own country would have to be paid as well.
Australia is NOT the only country that does this either.
As for the quality of work that comes out of JHAS, has anyone considered the work load that is given to JHAS by the customer?
What would you do if your work package included a fan lube, boroscope, engine wash and a full power vibe run all on the same engine? This would be in addition to the normal airframe work package (flap/leading edge/gear lubes/ hyd filters/ interior).I'm not even going to mention parts availability either. And don't forget that the aircraft lands at 2330hrs and gets towed into the hangar at 0030hrs. The normal nightshift duration is 2000hrs to 0600hrs. Now dont forget that the customer also schedules the aircraft for an 0600 departure, so that means you need to have the aircraft back on line, at the gate, by 0500hrs.
So you are all saying "just defer" the work. Hmm....good idea. Would be nice if the customer would let them!
The boys and girls working nights at JHAS do their best to meet the needs of the customer but get let down by a whole lot of other factors. And in the end it will be them who takes the blame and takes the hit.
Since mightyauster mentioned A330 damage...what was the story about VH-XFB's engine pylon that got bent? Who did that? Was it done in Australia?
Of all the areas where layoffs are currently occuring right now, how many of them work beside the 457 visa guys? Last I herd the majority of the layoffs are at heavy maintenance. The 457 visa guys work on line and they all have A330 ratings.
Now I agree its bulls#$%t that when layoffs occur locals are hit first and not the 457 visa guys. But under the immigration laws in Australia the 457 visa guys are protected for 5 yrs. And even if the employer/sponsor did lay them off their relocation back to their own country would have to be paid as well.
Australia is NOT the only country that does this either.
As for the quality of work that comes out of JHAS, has anyone considered the work load that is given to JHAS by the customer?
What would you do if your work package included a fan lube, boroscope, engine wash and a full power vibe run all on the same engine? This would be in addition to the normal airframe work package (flap/leading edge/gear lubes/ hyd filters/ interior).I'm not even going to mention parts availability either. And don't forget that the aircraft lands at 2330hrs and gets towed into the hangar at 0030hrs. The normal nightshift duration is 2000hrs to 0600hrs. Now dont forget that the customer also schedules the aircraft for an 0600 departure, so that means you need to have the aircraft back on line, at the gate, by 0500hrs.
So you are all saying "just defer" the work. Hmm....good idea. Would be nice if the customer would let them!
The boys and girls working nights at JHAS do their best to meet the needs of the customer but get let down by a whole lot of other factors. And in the end it will be them who takes the blame and takes the hit.
Since mightyauster mentioned A330 damage...what was the story about VH-XFB's engine pylon that got bent? Who did that? Was it done in Australia?
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Island Paradise
Posts: 23
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
You guys crack me up!
- Your contempt for your fellow workers and your failure to graps the English language gives us no doubt as to your origins.
I'm now assured that you guys know nothing about Jhas at all.
Just a few points to educate you:
We already know that no engineers with the A330 are in the gun due to the 457's with the only possible exception those that have scored the course and refuse to work the shifts required.
Possibly the reason that 12 months ago there were heaps of a/c parked was because Tiger was grounded for under training it's crews.
If Jhas were a parking lot, they'd be concerned, but as far as I'm aware, maintenance is generally c/out IN the hangar.
VBA, you may notice that every 6 months or so there are great stories about quality and efficiency at Jhas.
It's funny that this usually occurs when Virgins bills are due. I believe currently they owe closer to 10 than 5mill. With previous admin, the more noise, the less they paid of what they owed. We now have a very different admin.
Granted, I know little of H/ maint. But I'm sure the Fed Sec can enlighten you of the future of that.
Tiger is here to stay. A compromise for possible future C checks here, and to put an end to Amsa and Jhas undercutting each other to death for transits, wasto let them have it. It's funny that this doesn't mean a loss of work or revenue, because Amsa doesn't fix anything. It just comes back to us.
Nutso, I love your style, always loved the Flintstones.
I graps your fear man.
I'm now assured that you guys know nothing about Jhas at all.
Just a few points to educate you:
We already know that no engineers with the A330 are in the gun due to the 457's with the only possible exception those that have scored the course and refuse to work the shifts required.
Possibly the reason that 12 months ago there were heaps of a/c parked was because Tiger was grounded for under training it's crews.
If Jhas were a parking lot, they'd be concerned, but as far as I'm aware, maintenance is generally c/out IN the hangar.
VBA, you may notice that every 6 months or so there are great stories about quality and efficiency at Jhas.
It's funny that this usually occurs when Virgins bills are due. I believe currently they owe closer to 10 than 5mill. With previous admin, the more noise, the less they paid of what they owed. We now have a very different admin.
Granted, I know little of H/ maint. But I'm sure the Fed Sec can enlighten you of the future of that.
Tiger is here to stay. A compromise for possible future C checks here, and to put an end to Amsa and Jhas undercutting each other to death for transits, wasto let them have it. It's funny that this doesn't mean a loss of work or revenue, because Amsa doesn't fix anything. It just comes back to us.
Nutso, I love your style, always loved the Flintstones.
I graps your fear man.
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Vodka
Posts: 36
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Gens frog...
Didn't once say I agree with people loosing jobs, yep that sucks. As for the skills shortage now, unfortunately JHAS needed A330/Trent B1s and B2s 18 months ago. I'm sure if anyone at Qantas or Forestaff bothered to apply for the endless weeks of ads that I recall seeing at the time for BNE/SYD/PER/MEL then they probably would have been guaranteed a gig. The thing is, no one leaves Qantas unless its through redundancy.
Just do some training I hear everyone say. Yeah, try and get anything approved by CASA these days, let alone a new type. And how would get CASA approved PCT for an aircraft that's not here yet? Easy when your buying new ones from Airbus, but didn't they lease the first few from EK?
My guess is they did everything they could, then exhausted all avenues to have full coverage at all ports by bringing in a few 457s. At the time it was a genuine skills shortage. Anyway, I always thought that the unions are notified of all 457s and have the opportunity to object? Anyone verify that?
As for the damaged A330, I heard it was damaged by another ground handler towing a JQ ship?
Didn't once say I agree with people loosing jobs, yep that sucks. As for the skills shortage now, unfortunately JHAS needed A330/Trent B1s and B2s 18 months ago. I'm sure if anyone at Qantas or Forestaff bothered to apply for the endless weeks of ads that I recall seeing at the time for BNE/SYD/PER/MEL then they probably would have been guaranteed a gig. The thing is, no one leaves Qantas unless its through redundancy.
Just do some training I hear everyone say. Yeah, try and get anything approved by CASA these days, let alone a new type. And how would get CASA approved PCT for an aircraft that's not here yet? Easy when your buying new ones from Airbus, but didn't they lease the first few from EK?
My guess is they did everything they could, then exhausted all avenues to have full coverage at all ports by bringing in a few 457s. At the time it was a genuine skills shortage. Anyway, I always thought that the unions are notified of all 457s and have the opportunity to object? Anyone verify that?
As for the damaged A330, I heard it was damaged by another ground handler towing a JQ ship?
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Bexley
Posts: 1,792
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Anyway, I always thought that the unions are notified of all 457s and have the opportunity to object? Anyone verify that?
Aircraft Engineers should come off the Govt approved list.