JHAS Keeps 457's over Local workers in new Redundancy round

[tail wheel]

There is the argument that by forcing employers to treat them on all respects as an Australian there is a disincentive to employ a foreigner.

Well .... no ...... to you and empire 4.

Overseas skilled workers, working in Australia on a sub class 457 Visa have full entitlement to protection under Australian industrial and WH&S laws, as it should be. Australia does not have two classes of workers.

However, overseas workers do not have access to all the benefits enjoyed by Australians. For example, they can not access Medicare benefits but must buy and hold current Private Medical Insurance at their own expense. They can also not access any Australian social welfare benefits nor can they or their family obtain education or vocational training at Government expense.

If their employment is terminated for any reason they must either find an alternate sponsoring employer or leave Australia within 28 days of ceasing employment.

DIAC has a high priority to ensure Australians first and that no overseas worker shall displace an Australian Citizen or Australian Permanent Resident.

If you are aware of any instance where there are two identically qualified workers, one a tempory overseas worker, the other an Australian and the Australian is terminated in preference to the overseas worker, I am sure DIAC would want to be informed.

Does the ALAEA not take an interest in these matters?

[empire4]

Tail Wheel, I partly agree with what you say. 600ft-lb is correct in what they said.

You and I both know 2 LAMEs by your definition are not the same. The Australian Mech licensed on B737-800 that just got sacked from Tulla compared to the French 457 visa holder Mech licensed on A330 are not considered the same. They do however hold the exact same base trade, license and with PCT can be retrained. Money is the only constraint as experience can be argued.

Is the definition of "Same Qualifications" suitable for the Aircraft maintenance engineering industry?? I don't think so.

Due to money only companies will take the 457 holder in this case. Is this right by Australians? I understand it is the best thing for the Company to do in regards to the bottom line, but this is something that the Unions MUST push to stop. We need to be nationalist, and protect ourselves and the future generations.

do you see my point? Have you worked overseas?

[600ft-lb]

Tailwheel, i was casting a wide assertion in regards to a disincentive. You won't pay the thousands to the immigration dept for an application to employ a 457 when you can get the same locally at the same price.

as it stands for aircraft engineers, due to the lack of investment in skills training, lack of regulatory reform, looter management style etc, Australian LAMEs are being replaced by 'super' 5 cat mech/av combined lames trained in Singapore and china, imported by jhas and amsa because those companies can rightfully assert that bugger all Australians hold those qualifications and the ones that do won't work for 100k/year.

That's the dynamic currently in place in aviation, Australians are 10 years behind the world and therefore discriminated against.

Normally its a disincentive - in aviation its an incentive. Plenty of jobs for foreigners.

[rudderless1]

Transition to b1 from mech is about 6 weeks theory and 3 weeks prac
At Aviation Australia.
Plus addition type requirement
They don't want b1 in Qf heavy it seems! They still train mech type
For them. Whilst training line to b1 type in the same class.
Question is has competency been achieved in the very short
Time frame. Europe had big issues on this.

All looks good on paper, but .....??? CASA worlds best at lowering standards

[empire4]

600ft-lb, you've learned a hell of a lot in that bubble. 100 % correct in every way.

[mightyauster]

600ft-lb, you have hit the nail square on the head!
Further to your contribution rudderless1, the Singapore CAAS conversion from a SAR 7 License to SAR 66 is only four weeks, theory and practical included, at a cost of about $4500. CASA then rubber stamp the Singaporean's CASA license. Again, the Australian citizen is at a competitive disadvantage; but it is all legal and the so called "Fair" Work Australia and the Immigration Dept is not interested.

[tail wheel]

I am not familiar with the new LAME licensing system.

The intend of the 457 Visa is to supplement skills shortage areas, not replace training Australians.

What does ALAEA Fed Sec have to say about this? He is in a position to raise the matter with the Minister for Immigration.

[Jethro Gibbs]

Good Luck with that .

[mightyauster]

I have raised this isue with the ALAEA previously and they either cannot or will not do anything about it. It is one of the reasons I will not renew my membership.

[Jethro Gibbs]

What does ALAEA Fed Sec have to say about this? He is in a position to raise
the matter with the Minister for Immigration.

Right the Minister is sitting in his office waiting for the call FFS get real .

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

So. I don't read Pprune for a couple of days and all of a sudden we aren't doing something about a problem that we know about. Horsesh!t.

In the last few days we have written to the Govt about this in a lenghty submission to a review of the skilled 457 visa class list that is currently under review. So some poster here won't join us becasue we won't do anything about it? Who do you think we are bloke, the Govt? This whole sham was not our doing and the knobs in power now won't fix any of the draconian laws put in place by Johnny and his HR Nicholls mates.

Does anyone know what dealing with this Govt is like. Take this comment -

What does ALAEA Fed Sec have to say about this? He is in a position to raise the matter with the Minister for Immigration.

Yes I can raise it. I make an appointment to go to Cbr, I even have my own friggen ID to get in th place these days. I wait in the Bowen office and he gives me 15 minutes as we sip a luke warn tea prepared by a staffer. He shows much concern with the matters I raise and promises to continue to show much concern about it. What do you think happens? Nothing, absolutely friggen nothing. The idiots in Canberra are useless.

Jethro you may take aim and say this is the ALAEAs fault because we haven't bulit a nice relationship with the Govt. Have the other unions fixed the problem? Virtually every god damn profession you can think of is on that 457 list and not one union can convince a Labor Government to put Australian workrs first. If you can tip that I may be a little angry, frustrated and ready to step away from the great big line of union leaders heaping false praise on the current Govt, you'd be pretty close to the mark.

[Jethro Gibbs]

FED SEC i was just pointing out to the other poster that if they think the minister sits in his office waiting for a call from you they are dreaming I agree with you that the governments bloody useless so calm down.

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

I'm not angry at you Jethro. I'm angry at the issue. What is occurring is so morally wrong and unions for the last 10 years have been banging their heads up against the wall to get things fixed and nothing happens.

Romulus is so correct about most the things he has posted on this thread. The laws have loopholes and the companies make the most of them, I would even go as far as to say that the the loopholes were made deliberately so companies could act immorally and say they are just doing what is lawful. The law is an a$$. The lawmakers are a$$holes.

Romulus is however wrong about the creation of employment. Aircraft fly and must be fixed. JHAS doesn't create the need for labour, they just supply it. If JHAS go away, someone else will supply it. The work being done cannot be carried out offshore.

JHAS want to keep the 457 imports because they are non union and some cut corners on the job. They do not hold the Aussie values of pointing out deficiencies and demanding they get fixed. They are more inclined to turn a blind eye to aircraft defects and certify defective aircraft as fit to fly. This is why JHAS are losing contracts, the quality is getting worse.

JHAS are not meeting training obligations to overcome the shortfalls in labour that create the need for 457 holders in the first place. No apprentices and bugger all training. They are destroying our industry and really, it would be better off for safety outcomes and the industry in general if they just left town.

[mightyauster]

I hear ya SP, but there is no point in spending what few shekels I earn on union dues if I can't get results and I am heartily sick of being shat on, by virtue of the misfortune of being born here.

[Flying Spag Monster]

The analysis is very simple, why on earth would you pick a fight with an opponent who has the ability to line up Govt institutions that are exceptionally well funded against you?

Because once, many moons ago it was considered the right thing to do... And there goes Australia, the basic values that established a nation are shot. Corporations had an obligation to shareholders and the community in which they existed, that is employment. But now it's shareholders only, as if we all own companies and employ foreigners to do the hard stuff, sounds like the Middle East. I work in a country where the foreigner (me), is very much second behind the local who gets paid more for the same job. If the work dries up I will be short shifted well before they will and....so I should. Useless Government more concerned about the letter of the laws they have cobbled together rather than their true reason for Government, that is for the benefit of their people. Get out now....

[Romulus]

Originally Posted by FSM

Originally Posted by Rom

The analysis is very simple, why on earth would you pick a fight with an opponent who has the ability to line up Govt institutions that are exceptionally well funded against you?

Because once, many moons ago it was considered the right thing to do...

Talk about selective quoting FSM! You've completely changed the context of what I wrote.

If you have a situation where you need to make a worker redundant and Worker A is an ASM whereas Worker B is a minority female on a 457 visa, both of whom have the same written legal rights, why would you make B redundant when they also have the options of placing the racist card, the sexist card and the harshness test cited previously? Add the fact you've paid for their visa and once they are redundant the odds are they will have to leave the country whereas the local will usually be available to rehire if things pick up and the case for keeping Worker B gets quite a bit of backup. So why would you make B redundant?

In short, you wouldn't, it makes no sense.

[Romulus]

Originally Posted by FEDSEC

Romulus is however wrong about the creation of employment. Aircraft fly and must be fixed. JHAS doesn't create the need for labour, they just supply it. If JHAS go away, someone else will supply it. The work being done cannot be carried out offshore.

Leaving aside true Line activities Virgin used to get most of their hangar checks done in NZ and took the cost of ferrying rather than building a team in Australia.

Are you sure it can't be done overseas for Qantas as well?

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

Most of the Virgin HM is still done in NZ. I think though Romulus the thrust of your point here is correct. Any airline can take a plane half way around the world if they like to get a light bulb changed. My point though is that the JHAS activities are predominently tasks that are practically unable to be sent offshore (like overnight or short checks). If you did you would be pi$$ing money up against a wall, so yes it may be something Qantas would consider.

[empire4]

This whole sham was not our doing and the knobs in power now won't fix any of the draconian laws put in place by Johnny and his HR Nicholls mates

Steve, I think concentrating on who started 457 Visas is a little silly. They are needed for a lot of Australia's industry. Every country needs immigration to move forward. Whether it be Howard, Rudd or GIllard the problem lies within the IR laws allowing them to stay when times get tough or they are not needed. At present JG's Fair Work Australia is anything but. We have to look forward, looking backward will do jack S#*T

I do acknowledge that the ALAEA are trying to do something, and you are doing a job I could not do. This problem has been dragging on for years. The defense needs to be ramped up.

[600ft-lb]

I think time would be better spent by not fighting these changes but by actively lobbying the government to give Qantas and every other employer an incentive to train to upskill their own blokes. Tax breaks, funding whatever. The government has been handing out cash year after year to the car industry which has shrunk unrecognisably, it would be a pittance compared to that. The government is the ones responsible for the current state but time won't be turned back on this regulation. We need everyone on board to train up our local workforce to be competitive in the world.

JHAS and AMSA for example will not employ a local 2 or 3 cat traditional LAME when they can assert the ones they want, 5 cat's, do not exist on shore - they then have justification to look overseas, so good luck getting this trade of the 457 list as long as this situation exists.

And to qualify the last statement, good luck getting the government to discriminate between LAME sub types in the 457 list to only allow super LAMEs.