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Dallas Dispute - Qantas Crew stood down.

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Dallas Dispute - Qantas Crew stood down.

Old 20th Aug 2012, 23:42
  #21 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
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Don't know how this got to the media but they are always ready to pounce when it comes to Qantas..

If the report is true, hard to believe in this day and age that it could happen. You would think that the crew whatever their experience could have a civil conversation to sort the situation out.
But I agree with above comments in regard to safety, best to relieve them of duty or at least change the crew as did happen.
Doesn't give the pax much confidence though to hear that those at the sharp end are having disagreements before a 16 hour flight!

There's probably more to this in terms of human factors but best if Q management can sort it internally without the media getting their twisted sway on it.
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Old 20th Aug 2012, 23:48
  #22 (permalink)  
 
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Very good question Sand Dune Sam. Maybe the QF PPRuNe armchair solicitors can answer this one. Keg, Livs hairdresser etc. care to comment?
Geez, I dunno. Maybe we can start by figuring out how you snuck through the system
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Old 21st Aug 2012, 00:07
  #23 (permalink)  
Keg

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Talking

SO speak up more these days ever since the Qantas 747 parked itself in the golf course a few years ago. The SO said nothing and lost his job.
I'm pretty sure that's incorrect. I've never heard of the S/O losing his job. It'd be a pretty big deal amongst our crew if that were the case.

Isn't the Qantas psychometric, NASA selection testing supposed to weed out this kind of thing?
Very good question Sand Dune Sam. Maybe the QF PPRuNe armchair solicitors can answer this one. Keg, Livs hairdresser etc. care to comment?
Sure. A number of QF pilots were employed well before they started to use psychometric testing. I don't know who this Captain is (or the S/O for that matter) but he wouldn't be the first fruit loop to grace the QF flight decks if he's a 'known' person.

Of course there is the possibility here that the media has it very, very wrong- wouldn't be the first time- so perhaps I'll reserve judgement on the situation until I actually know what happened.

Contrary to popular belief, QF pilots don't consider themselves perfect. If recent PPRuNe contributions are evidence though, on par though we seem to demonstrate more rationalisation skills than small groups from other airlines- particularly the silver and orange part of the group.

Last edited by Keg; 21st Aug 2012 at 00:13.
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Old 21st Aug 2012, 00:09
  #24 (permalink)  
 
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Obviously the G/Y generation have taken their attitude to the flight deck.
Knowing the age of most of the SOs in Qantas almost certainly he is Gen X, not the feared and hated Gen Y.

We all know how twisted facts get in the media when it comes to technical details (strange in this article the tech details seem spot on, is that significant to who leaked this?). It should come as no surprise that we don't know exactly what happened between the two pilots.

TG, I enjoy the majority of your posts but am sick of having my generation slagged off as if we are worthless, lazy, no gooders. If you feel like getting to know someone from Gen Y, finding out about my work ethic and other philosophy's on life shoot me a PM. I'd love to hear some of your war stories too!
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Old 21st Aug 2012, 00:12
  #25 (permalink)  
 
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i brought this up here (well eluded that something had happened) under my jetstar cadet thread that was quickly locked. What do you know Mr moderator and others that want all the information straight away... sometimes you just have to wait a bit for the details to come out instead of putting down those who bring up open ended topics for discussion!!!
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Old 21st Aug 2012, 00:19
  #26 (permalink)  
 
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I know the names..but don't think names are allowed on PPRuNe??... I'm either not willing to post enough information, or too much it seems. Keg...you would know the Capt, if only by reputation... he is a shocker. The SO is an experienced one (as they all are by now...). If the Capt keeps his command or even his job then the saying "whats harder to do than get into Qantas??... getting kicked out!" may be true...
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Old 21st Aug 2012, 00:28
  #27 (permalink)  
 
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Weather delays, duty-time limits....cancelled flight, Captain answerable not SO but....

for SO to stand ground there must have been a serious anomally somewhere that a 3rd pilot should have been easily able to independantly vote the "outlier" out (lucky to have a 3rd pilot).

But too many holes and limited info as always; what FMS inputs, still at gate or on taxiway, LMC, re-route, "interpretation/assesment of runway surface or weather conditions etc etc.

Some inputs and decisions can be interpretive based on experience but as long as the SO was not being @nal for the sake of it (doubt that) then as an active crew member they must challenge.

If not positively resolved in a timely fashion then some doubt probably existed all round the entire crew......"when in doubt there is no doubt", so good job by all not to take an unresolved issue onto the runway.

It seems the weather delays and lack of spare duty time just didn't allow for a timely resolution, leading to a cancelled flight....... otherwise it would have been a non-event (as I'm sure it was) and QF PR would have one less opportunity to throw distractive mud (blame) at pilots.

Last edited by radnav; 21st Aug 2012 at 00:39.
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Old 21st Aug 2012, 00:55
  #28 (permalink)  
 
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The flight was cancelled due duty time limits, after that they got wind of the dispute, then had to fly new crew over.
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Old 21st Aug 2012, 01:01
  #29 (permalink)  
 
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If recent PPRuNe contributions are evidence though, on par though we seem to demonstrate more rationalisation skills than small groups from other airlines
Definition from Wikipedia: Rationalisation (making excuses) - a psychological defense mechanism in which perceived controversial behaviors are logically justified.

Enough said!

Last edited by NOTAM; 21st Aug 2012 at 01:25.
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Old 21st Aug 2012, 01:16
  #30 (permalink)  
 
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Obviously the G/Y generation have taken their attitude to the flight deck.
I agree with most of your sentiments Teresa but that there is rubbish! Besides, you'll probably find that most Gen Y'ers who have made it to the flightdeck of an airliner aren't typical of the no good, rude lazy slobs we are so often stereotyped as!
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Old 21st Aug 2012, 01:25
  #31 (permalink)  
 
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If the Captain proposes to operate the flight 1) Safely and 2) Lawfully, then the captain should have every reasonable expectation that the crew will offer their complete support.

If there is a breach of safety or SOP, the crew must speak up. If a crew member can see a more efficient way of doing things, then they should offer the suggestion to the other crew. The Captain then makes an assessment on what is the best plan of action (even if not his/her idea) and implements it.

There are some crew out there in aviation land who think that the captain must automatically incorporate ideas, however impractical, that are raised by the SO/FO. This is not good CRM. The captain is the decision maker and the subordinate crew are there to support the captain in the safe and lawful operation of the aircraft. The perspective that an FO/SO can over-ride a safe and lawful command decision is not limited by generation, but is the by-product of poor CRM culture.

Some years ago, a FO over-rode my command decision to land a B737 on RWY 14 BN. This FO stated that use of that RWY was "non-standard" (ie: he hadn't.. "seen anyone else use it" before). When I pointed out in ERSA that it was lawful and the wind of 100/25 made it the safer option (not to mention that radar vectors for RWY 01 would mean 5-6 mins additional flight time), he still refused to budge as he still felt that RWY 14 would breach SOPs. After landing on RWY 01 (my command decision that all crew must be on the same page ), I asked him to show me where in the AIP/SOPs/ERSA/JEPPs that RWY 14 was illegal. He couldn't. I explained that his lack of knowledge had resulted in cost to the company and a degraded standard of safety; It is the responsibility of subordinate crew to know their friggin' stuff!!

I do not know what has happend on the QF8. The focus on what is right takes precedance over who is right. Either the use of the TO performance computer was safe and lawful or it wasn't. To cast 'blame' at this stage is premature. To say that the Captain has a "track record" may or may not be true. In any case, previous history has no relevance to what did or did not happen in Dallas. The facts will eventually come to light and until then, it is all second guessing.

(PS, The SO in QF1 at BKK did NOT get fired. This sounds more like another aviation myth).

Last edited by Anthill; 21st Aug 2012 at 01:29.
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Old 21st Aug 2012, 01:27
  #32 (permalink)  
 
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The SO is an experienced one
No doubt he is experienced - in the role of being an SO. One of the first things you figure out as a capt is how much you didn't know about the role of the capt when employed in a different seat. This SO is about to have a lesson on the subject.

CRM techniques also involve the FO/SO understanding the correct way to question instructions, which conflicts with Gen Y conditioning to cry like a baby when dissatisfied, ignored, not placated, etc. When combined with inexperience, brazeness and youthful ignorance plus the wrong capt on the receiving end, you get a cockpit "conflict".

At least it happened on the ground. Now the SO can stand up and account for his actions. He better have his poop in one sock or the list of management capts lining up to kick his arse will be long and distinguished. Just like Slider's johnson.

My money is on the capt.
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Old 21st Aug 2012, 01:36
  #33 (permalink)  
 
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If recent PPRuNe contributions are evidence though, on par though we seem to demonstrate more rationalisation skills than small groups from other airlines
Definition from Wikipedia: Rationalisation (making excuses) - a psychological defense mechanism in which perceived controversial behaviors are logically justified.

Enough said!
Are you trying to play tricky word games like you were with the MOU? Rationalise can have several meanings.

rationalize or rationalise
..
3. to apply logic or reasoning to something
..

You're still not upset by that whole MOU thing, are you? Why don't you continue this conversation on that thread, rather than detracting from this one?
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Old 21st Aug 2012, 01:37
  #34 (permalink)  
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The flight was cancelled due duty time limits, after that they got wind of the dispute, then had to fly new crew over.
QF must operate this flight very close to the maximum duty time limitation or that was one hell of a long argument?
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Old 21st Aug 2012, 01:45
  #35 (permalink)  
 
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Come on now Livs hairdresser no need to blow a fuse. Just having a bit of fun mate. Things not going so well in hairdressing?

Last edited by NOTAM; 21st Aug 2012 at 01:47.
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Old 21st Aug 2012, 02:11
  #36 (permalink)  
 
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Whatever happened to playing Rock-paper-scissors to resolve disputes? Used to work well back in primary school ...
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Old 21st Aug 2012, 02:13
  #37 (permalink)  
 
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If I have insulted the younger generation then I apologise, as you will all do as you age, and your children will test your mettle, that's life. However it is sad to read in a major paper that pilots allegedly used aggression on the flight deck, that resulted in them being stood down. it seems to me that is how things are done more and more in this world we live in, its not all that hard to discuss things and come to a agreement I would have thought, but perhaps not so much anymore.
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Old 21st Aug 2012, 02:18
  #38 (permalink)  
Keg

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QF must operate this flight very close to the maximum duty time limitation or that was one hell of a long argument?
I think thunderies played a part in this one also.

NOTAM, you may have been trying to 'have some fun' but I think Liv's hairdresser well and truly called you on it and had the last laugh. pwned.

Last edited by Keg; 21st Aug 2012 at 02:21.
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Old 21st Aug 2012, 03:11
  #39 (permalink)  
 
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The S/O on the QF1 did not lose his job, though it did spur him on to a (voluntary) fleet change to get away from all the crap. He also happens to be a very nice bloke and a very capable operator.

However I do know of an occassion where a senior QF B747 captain stated quite matter of factly: "if it wasn't for the second officer, that QF1 accident would never have happened!" Many of those types have retired now, but you still come across one occasionally.
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Old 21st Aug 2012, 03:23
  #40 (permalink)  
 
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DFW-BNE has a planned Flight Time of 16:05, which makes the planned Tour of Duty 17:35. As Keg has suggested, their departure was delayed out of DFW due to TS, pushing the ToD beyond the planned limit of 17:45/18:00 ??? After the ToD has started, this planned limit maybe extended to a maximum of 20:00, if and only if, all four pilots agree.

Last edited by Bleve; 21st Aug 2012 at 03:35.
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