Dallas Dispute - Qantas Crew stood down.
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what about the paying passengers?
updated
.
Last edited by TIMA9X; 21st Aug 2012 at 05:16. Reason: updated video
Now the punters are getting in on it.
I'll take a punt that the argument was over extending flight time in that someone wanted to and the other didn't.
It is also quite possibly a complete over reaction from Flight Ops too on a minor disagreement which has become some sort of punchup
These kind of leaks should also bring into question the confidentiality of the QF reporting system. How on earth can you report anything if it is in the paper next day.
QF-Cock Up: 'comedy of errors' after pilots clash
Read more: QF-Cock Up: 'comedy of errors' after pilots clash
I'll take a punt that the argument was over extending flight time in that someone wanted to and the other didn't.
It is also quite possibly a complete over reaction from Flight Ops too on a minor disagreement which has become some sort of punchup
These kind of leaks should also bring into question the confidentiality of the QF reporting system. How on earth can you report anything if it is in the paper next day.
QF-Cock Up: 'comedy of errors' after pilots clash
Read more: QF-Cock Up: 'comedy of errors' after pilots clash
Passengers have described as a "flight from hell" and a "comedy of errors" their experience of a Qantas flight from Dallas, Texas, which culminated in two pilots having a heated argument in the cockpit.
The passengers on QF8 only learned today what had happened behind the scenes after Fairfax Media revealed that Qantas has stood down the captain and second officer of the 747-400 jumbo.
It was the flight from hell. It was just one cock up after the other. When I finally landed in Sydney the guy could not find my bag
They have been withdrawn from duty for their argument over the take-off calculations they should be punching into the plane's computer system as it sat on the tarmac at Dallas's international airport.
Illustration: Cathy Wilcox
A passenger, Bronwyn Smith-Orme, said the entire flight home to Sydney was a "complete stuff up" and included repeated delays, lost baggage and a lack of staff to deal with passengers. Her father drove to Sydney Airport three times in the hope he could pick up his daughter.
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"[It was] the flight from hell. It was just one cock up after the other," she said today. "When I finally landed in Sydney the guy could not find my bag."
Ms Smith-Orme said the passengers on QF8 felt there was "something going on that we weren't told" but what "frustrates me more is that we felt abandoned in Dallas".
"Everything after that was just like a comedy of errors," she said.
Passengers were left sitting for more than two hours on the 747-400 jumbo as it was parked at Dallas-Fort Worth International Airport, during which time they were told the pilot was too busy to talk.
"Then there was another announcement to say there was a sick crew member, and then finally there was another announcement made by the pilots to say they did not have enough hours to get the plane to Brisbane," she said. "The whole thing did feel a bit suspicious because I have never had an announcement to say the pilot is too busy to talk to you."
Passengers had no idea there had been a dispute between the pilots.
Ms Smith-Orme said Qantas did not have enough staff at the airport in Dallas to deal with the passengers who had been offloaded for an overnight stay. Passengers did not get to a hotel until about 1am.
"The way they treated us at Dallas airport was deplorable. Qantas either don't have a plan as to what to do if they have a delayed plane, or they didn't follow it or their plan has serious flaws," she said.
"There was no one from Qantas around to tell us what was going on."
A business-class passenger from Sydney on QF8 said the communication from the airline was poor.
"I understand delayed flights due to weather ... but the contingency plans for what to do when that happens were just not existent. It was like the first time they have ever encountered that problem," he said.
Qantas has since launched an investigation into the dispute between the two pilots who have been told they cannot fly. The incident occurred last Tuesday night (US time) as a major thunderstorm was rolling across Dallas, causing severe congestion at the city's international airport.
It is rare for pilots to be stood down from operational duties.
The Civil Aviation Safety Authority said today that it had been made aware that Qantas had stood down the pilots but would not comment further because the matter was being handled by the airline.
Because the pilots on QF8 were already close to exceeding their 20-hour duty limits due to delays caused by the thunderstorms, Qantas's flight operations managers decided to keep the plane on the ground overnight at Dallas.
The managers were later informed of the argument between the pilots and stood them down. It meant the airline had to bring in replacement pilots to fly QF8 back to Sydney via Brisbane the next day.
The jumbo, which can carry about 320 passengers on the ultra long-haul route across the Pacific, had been due to arrive in Brisbane at 5am on Thursday but did not touch down until 18 hours later.
A Qantas spokesman confirmed yesterday that a captain and a second officer had been withheld from service while an investigation was under way.
But he said the flight was late arriving in Brisbane because of the delays caused by the thunderstorms, not the altercation between the two pilots.
"Qantas flight QF8 from Dallas-Fort Worth to Brisbane on 14 August was delayed overnight as a result of severe thunderstorms in the Dallas area," he said.
The incident comes three weeks after a Qantas captain was removed from operational duties for testing positive to alcohol. The airline still has an investigation under way into the conduct of that captain, who flight attendants had suspected had been drinking before a flight.
Read more: QF-Cock Up: 'comedy of errors' after pilots clash
The passengers on QF8 only learned today what had happened behind the scenes after Fairfax Media revealed that Qantas has stood down the captain and second officer of the 747-400 jumbo.
It was the flight from hell. It was just one cock up after the other. When I finally landed in Sydney the guy could not find my bag
They have been withdrawn from duty for their argument over the take-off calculations they should be punching into the plane's computer system as it sat on the tarmac at Dallas's international airport.
Illustration: Cathy Wilcox
A passenger, Bronwyn Smith-Orme, said the entire flight home to Sydney was a "complete stuff up" and included repeated delays, lost baggage and a lack of staff to deal with passengers. Her father drove to Sydney Airport three times in the hope he could pick up his daughter.
Advertisement
"[It was] the flight from hell. It was just one cock up after the other," she said today. "When I finally landed in Sydney the guy could not find my bag."
Ms Smith-Orme said the passengers on QF8 felt there was "something going on that we weren't told" but what "frustrates me more is that we felt abandoned in Dallas".
"Everything after that was just like a comedy of errors," she said.
Passengers were left sitting for more than two hours on the 747-400 jumbo as it was parked at Dallas-Fort Worth International Airport, during which time they were told the pilot was too busy to talk.
"Then there was another announcement to say there was a sick crew member, and then finally there was another announcement made by the pilots to say they did not have enough hours to get the plane to Brisbane," she said. "The whole thing did feel a bit suspicious because I have never had an announcement to say the pilot is too busy to talk to you."
Passengers had no idea there had been a dispute between the pilots.
Ms Smith-Orme said Qantas did not have enough staff at the airport in Dallas to deal with the passengers who had been offloaded for an overnight stay. Passengers did not get to a hotel until about 1am.
"The way they treated us at Dallas airport was deplorable. Qantas either don't have a plan as to what to do if they have a delayed plane, or they didn't follow it or their plan has serious flaws," she said.
"There was no one from Qantas around to tell us what was going on."
A business-class passenger from Sydney on QF8 said the communication from the airline was poor.
"I understand delayed flights due to weather ... but the contingency plans for what to do when that happens were just not existent. It was like the first time they have ever encountered that problem," he said.
Qantas has since launched an investigation into the dispute between the two pilots who have been told they cannot fly. The incident occurred last Tuesday night (US time) as a major thunderstorm was rolling across Dallas, causing severe congestion at the city's international airport.
It is rare for pilots to be stood down from operational duties.
The Civil Aviation Safety Authority said today that it had been made aware that Qantas had stood down the pilots but would not comment further because the matter was being handled by the airline.
Because the pilots on QF8 were already close to exceeding their 20-hour duty limits due to delays caused by the thunderstorms, Qantas's flight operations managers decided to keep the plane on the ground overnight at Dallas.
The managers were later informed of the argument between the pilots and stood them down. It meant the airline had to bring in replacement pilots to fly QF8 back to Sydney via Brisbane the next day.
The jumbo, which can carry about 320 passengers on the ultra long-haul route across the Pacific, had been due to arrive in Brisbane at 5am on Thursday but did not touch down until 18 hours later.
A Qantas spokesman confirmed yesterday that a captain and a second officer had been withheld from service while an investigation was under way.
But he said the flight was late arriving in Brisbane because of the delays caused by the thunderstorms, not the altercation between the two pilots.
"Qantas flight QF8 from Dallas-Fort Worth to Brisbane on 14 August was delayed overnight as a result of severe thunderstorms in the Dallas area," he said.
The incident comes three weeks after a Qantas captain was removed from operational duties for testing positive to alcohol. The airline still has an investigation under way into the conduct of that captain, who flight attendants had suspected had been drinking before a flight.
Read more: QF-Cock Up: 'comedy of errors' after pilots clash
Last edited by neville_nobody; 21st Aug 2012 at 04:09.
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Good summary there Anthill, you make the point well.
But leaving aside the issues of all the kerfuffle up on the flight deck, poor communication from Qantas etc., I have just read that pax were apparently sitting on board for around two hours before being off loaded. This is very poor departure planning as on a long flight like that, the last thing you need is to be siiting there getting frustrated, blood pooling in the legs etc. and not being informed.
If it was wx such as thunderstorms, why the hell load the pax when the aircraft is not even going to depart?
But leaving aside the issues of all the kerfuffle up on the flight deck, poor communication from Qantas etc., I have just read that pax were apparently sitting on board for around two hours before being off loaded. This is very poor departure planning as on a long flight like that, the last thing you need is to be siiting there getting frustrated, blood pooling in the legs etc. and not being informed.
If it was wx such as thunderstorms, why the hell load the pax when the aircraft is not even going to depart?
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TBM
Yes what about the paying passengers?
I was unaware that if crew felt that they could not extend due to fatigue that they had to consult the pax before making a decision.
Guess the regs you use are different to the ones I use.
Wunwing
Yes what about the paying passengers?
I was unaware that if crew felt that they could not extend due to fatigue that they had to consult the pax before making a decision.
Guess the regs you use are different to the ones I use.
Wunwing
You would have to start questioning the whole confidential reporting system that is in place.
It is obviously leaking like a sieve given the recent media stories. Is there a rouge element leaking these events? Is this sanctioned by Senior Management? Is it being leaked from within the regulator? Is there an investigation into why so many normally confidential operational occurrences are suddenly turning up in the newspaper?
This could irreparably damage the reporting culture within the organisation. Occurrences may now go unreported as crew become fearful that reporting an event will end up in the newspaper.
It is obviously leaking like a sieve given the recent media stories. Is there a rouge element leaking these events? Is this sanctioned by Senior Management? Is it being leaked from within the regulator? Is there an investigation into why so many normally confidential operational occurrences are suddenly turning up in the newspaper?
This could irreparably damage the reporting culture within the organisation. Occurrences may now go unreported as crew become fearful that reporting an event will end up in the newspaper.
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It is obviously leaking like a sieve given the recent media stories. Is there a rouge element leaking these events? Is this sanctioned by Senior Management?
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McGrath, the only war I have been in is 89! Fella's, it goes without saying be careful what you blog, I don't have to remind you why. No names, no packdrill.
Nunc est bibendum
I know that we all like to beat up on Olivia Wirth (me included) but I don't think that she's the one to blame for these sorts of things coming to the public knowledge. Certainly I'm aware that she's made considerable effort to keep the name of the Captain with the alcohol out of the media. Apparently one of the Sunday rags was ready to run with the Captain's name (and photos of her) but Olivia managed to work some magic. Credit where it's due in this regard.
I still do wonder whether the generatlies of these is a smoke screen or not. Given how poorly they run an airline though I don't think they're good enough to run these sorts of conspiracies. What's the rule again? When there's a choice between conspiracy and stuff up the odds are it's the stuff up.
I still do wonder whether the generatlies of these is a smoke screen or not. Given how poorly they run an airline though I don't think they're good enough to run these sorts of conspiracies. What's the rule again? When there's a choice between conspiracy and stuff up the odds are it's the stuff up.
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The what the?
How do you tie the confidential reporting system to this? Crew broadcast it to an aircraft full of disgruntled pax! Then it got to the media.
Granted, they could have left out a few details but it has nothing to do with reporting culture of the organisation. It is more an indication of stressed and frustrated crew and a clash of wills.( or more likely 3 wills and 1 won't)
Your " The sky is falling" spurt is so far off the mark it is ridiculous.
Granted, they could have left out a few details but it has nothing to do with reporting culture of the organisation. It is more an indication of stressed and frustrated crew and a clash of wills.( or more likely 3 wills and 1 won't)
Your " The sky is falling" spurt is so far off the mark it is ridiculous.
Keg,
AIPA had something to do with it as well...many favours called in to keep a lid on it...journos love a controversial story...it is best sorted with due process than story chases hounding people at home....
AIPA had something to do with it as well...many favours called in to keep a lid on it...journos love a controversial story...it is best sorted with due process than story chases hounding people at home....
HamFan,
Not this particular Captain I'm afraid. One of the few guys in my time as an S/O that I actively tried to avoid when in a slip port.
I guess all will be revealed in time...
My money is on the capt.
I guess all will be revealed in time...
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Fight night, game on....
Forget silly flight deck arguments, bitch slaps or tanty's, I want to see some of this on the flight deck....
Footnote: And no, this is not pornography, nor is it, well, another activity some get involved in....It is mud wrestling, legal and quite entertaining.
Great for business and it could bring in additional revenue?
(Marge and Liv need not apply)
Footnote: And no, this is not pornography, nor is it, well, another activity some get involved in....It is mud wrestling, legal and quite entertaining.
Great for business and it could bring in additional revenue?
(Marge and Liv need not apply)
A simple " ahhhh mate, you're too excited to go flying today, we're going back to the terminal" from the Captain would sort out a Second Officer who was getting bent out of shape.Call it leadership or command or management, call it what you want, if conflict resolution doesn't work then axe the flight and let the SO face the consequences. If on the other hand it was the Captain getting all bent out of shape then call it a lack of leadership, command, management, whatever you want, he or she should know better.
Performance calculations are critical and any doubts need to be voiced, it's what happens after that that matters.
Performance calculations are critical and any doubts need to be voiced, it's what happens after that that matters.
Depsite the reputation of the Captain it is probably an indication of the stress that is being felt at all levels within QF. As always there would be more to this than just a disagreement about performance numbers. Despite management stating that what happens to the business shouldn't be taken into the flight deck you would have to be less than human if what is happening at QF doesn't manifest itself somewhere along the line.
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Wow, we have some real Monday morning experts on these forums. 
Any experts got a tip for the Melbourne Cup????
Any experts got a tip for the Melbourne Cup????
Last edited by Stalins ugly Brother; 21st Aug 2012 at 09:33.