Airservices CEO resigns
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But you aren't a passenger separator! You can prove, disprove, say anything you want with stats and graphs. Managers do it all the time. Doesn't mean a thing. I bet you could pull out stats that disprove exactly what you are trying to prove.
Do you think Nav Charges are per passenger?
Do you think Nav Charges are per passenger?
Last edited by Baileys; 4th Jun 2012 at 11:43.
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asa and "spin"
The point is here, that these numbers were not published by airservices, but are from the "aviation statistics" collected by the transport office.
I would have thought that the release of these by asa would be part of their "core business" reporting??
Well??
I would have thought that the release of these by asa would be part of their "core business" reporting??
Well??
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Do you think Nav Charges are per passenger?
Not saying Ireland does it better, but you don't see their ANSP generating 100s of millions in profits, even though it's in a much better position to do so as the majority of it's customers are not locals (companies or citizens) and the governments bottom line is in a far worse position.
I'm not so concerned about the back office roles as such; because forgetting the empire building element, most of those can actually 'support the front end'; my concern would be the massive amounts of money spent on 'development' of the latest machine that goes ping, with no economic case for said machine.
Various projects have absorbed huge investments that will never pay back. Lots of them for nothing more than ideology; or some other reason...
Having worked with a more 'modern' version of TAAATS in Ireland, with 2 people on every console, there is a huge difference between safe and safe enough. When was the last time Ireland closed airspace due to the lack of staff, or instigated a 'short break' procedure, or had excessive over-time all the while having two people per sector. Would be interesting to see the 'breakdown stats' comparing the two ANSPs.
IFATCA has a 4 eye policy for safety, Australia has a 2 eye policy (some times 1 eye or no eye policy) for economic reasons. There are significant limitations going forward for fixing this mess, but a redesign is definitely a must; unfortunately it has to come from the front end back, not the other way around; like every other 'restructure' for the past 20 years. No 'supervised handovers' when one controller is staying on position, much smaller risk.
Last edited by Blockla; 4th Jun 2012 at 13:11.
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Safe v safe enough.
Blockla – #109. Have a ceegar mate. 
This whole mess deserves to be laid firmly at the Ministers door, he runs these departments and should be able to answer questions, preferably during question time.
I would like to know how much money ASA has made, how much has been wasted, how much has been spent on lunches and 'essential spousal travel' etc., how much on bonuses paid against failed projects, how much on advertising spin and self aggrandisement, just for starters.
Then I would like to know why our first class ATC people are struggling with half arsed systems, short of staff, short of training personnel, short of chairs and can't get an expensive simulator working.
It cannot be that ASA is short of money – the proceeds of this cynical, massive public rip off go where ?. Not to improved systems, not to more coal face crew, not to training, not even a few new chairs.
And Australia decries sweatshops in the third world.
Arrghh - Steam off.
This whole mess deserves to be laid firmly at the Ministers door, he runs these departments and should be able to answer questions, preferably during question time.
I would like to know how much money ASA has made, how much has been wasted, how much has been spent on lunches and 'essential spousal travel' etc., how much on bonuses paid against failed projects, how much on advertising spin and self aggrandisement, just for starters.
Then I would like to know why our first class ATC people are struggling with half arsed systems, short of staff, short of training personnel, short of chairs and can't get an expensive simulator working.
It cannot be that ASA is short of money – the proceeds of this cynical, massive public rip off go where ?. Not to improved systems, not to more coal face crew, not to training, not even a few new chairs.
And Australia decries sweatshops in the third world.
Arrghh - Steam off.
Last edited by Kharon; 4th Jun 2012 at 20:19.
Wow from an outsider's point of view this thread makes for some shocking reading in regards to the state of affairs within ASA.
No offence to the 'live' ATCers but it sure makes you think twice about putting your loved ones on (certain) bunsen burners..you know the operators who already have multiple hole alignment!
Jack Ranga is the ASA SMS/reporting system either overloaded or totally ignored...sure would make for interesting 'bedtime reading'...or is it another example of how best to tick a box!
No offence to the 'live' ATCers but it sure makes you think twice about putting your loved ones on (certain) bunsen burners..you know the operators who already have multiple hole alignment!
Jack Ranga is the ASA SMS/reporting system either overloaded or totally ignored...sure would make for interesting 'bedtime reading'...or is it another example of how best to tick a box!
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You can prove, disprove, say anything you want with stats and graphs
Do you think Nav Charges are per passenger?
Last edited by Jack Ranga; 5th Jun 2012 at 00:43.
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Jack Ranga is the ASA SMS/reporting system either overloaded or totally ignored
Hi Mr K, et Al,
At most circuses, the ringmaster (Alb) controls the show, the clowns (Managerial staff) provide the distractions, while the professionals - trapeze artists - (ATCers) climb up their towers (and into their Centres) and launch themselves into their death defying acts....much to the amazement of all watchers and other participants.....
It seems that we, the OZ Public, have more clowns than we have professionals (not) protecting our collective arses when ever we take to the skies.....
The 'savings' in the provision of airservices, with the so-called 'modernisation', was always touted to the industry when it was introduced, that the 'savings' would be split equally between the 'stakeholders' - i.e. the industry, Airservices Aust, and the Guvmint.
So, the industry is supposed to get a reduction over time in the charges levied by ASA, - which they simply pass on the the travelling taxpayer anyway, - the ATC organisation is supposed to 'share ' in the bounty, in the form of wage rises and improved conditions over time, - and the Guvmint simply collects the remainder as a TAX!
'Guvmint Business Enterprise' - G.B.E. was established, I think by the Howard Govt - I may be wrong here, but it was a 'fair while back'....
It is apparent that the income providers - ATCers - are NOT getting their fair share due to its being 'creamed off' at the top..??
Cheers
At most circuses, the ringmaster (Alb) controls the show, the clowns (Managerial staff) provide the distractions, while the professionals - trapeze artists - (ATCers) climb up their towers (and into their Centres) and launch themselves into their death defying acts....much to the amazement of all watchers and other participants.....
It seems that we, the OZ Public, have more clowns than we have professionals (not) protecting our collective arses when ever we take to the skies.....
The 'savings' in the provision of airservices, with the so-called 'modernisation', was always touted to the industry when it was introduced, that the 'savings' would be split equally between the 'stakeholders' - i.e. the industry, Airservices Aust, and the Guvmint.
So, the industry is supposed to get a reduction over time in the charges levied by ASA, - which they simply pass on the the travelling taxpayer anyway, - the ATC organisation is supposed to 'share ' in the bounty, in the form of wage rises and improved conditions over time, - and the Guvmint simply collects the remainder as a TAX!
'Guvmint Business Enterprise' - G.B.E. was established, I think by the Howard Govt - I may be wrong here, but it was a 'fair while back'....
It is apparent that the income providers - ATCers - are NOT getting their fair share due to its being 'creamed off' at the top..??
Cheers
Last edited by Ex FSO GRIFFO; 5th Jun 2012 at 03:24.
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The point being that passenger numbers are irrelevant unless they have wings and a transponder.
It is aircraft movements that matter and they have risen by only 100,000ish in 15 years (1995 - 2010 on the graph posted here).
100,000 is huge you say? Well it's not. And if we do this.......
100,000/365days/30sectors/3shiftsperday (guessing here) = 3 movements per sector per shift increase over 15 years. Now what has your salary done from 1995 to 2011???? Gotta love stats.
See what I mean. You made heaps of good points before but be careful what figures you are quoting.
It is aircraft movements that matter and they have risen by only 100,000ish in 15 years (1995 - 2010 on the graph posted here).
100,000 is huge you say? Well it's not. And if we do this.......
100,000/365days/30sectors/3shiftsperday (guessing here) = 3 movements per sector per shift increase over 15 years. Now what has your salary done from 1995 to 2011???? Gotta love stats.
See what I mean. You made heaps of good points before but be careful what figures you are quoting.
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Baileys,
I agree with your point that stats can be used to prove anything (the use of maternity leave to 'prove' TFN's claim ATC's took too much sick leave last EBA negotiations was a perfect case) but your simple model fails because it fails to take account of the fact that if CX put on one more HK-ML flight, which adds one to the movement total, it passes through about 8 sectors from FIR entry to touchdown. That it then conflicts with the latest airline adding to the SY-SG route or the latest BN-PH aircraft, etc., etc., etc., is not recorded in that picture either.
The clever bods at AsA have a device which measures how many aircraft an open console is controlling. Management then use that data to see if sectors could have combined when they were split, which could lead to a reduction in staff required. What this fails to take account of is the complexity in dealing with the traffic that's there. For example, I have been busier with 3 aircraft on frequency than when I have had 12 but when this data is collected, no questions are asked of the controllers involved about what was happening. The data is then used by people in Canberra who are responsible for cutting controller numbers as much as possible (sorry, resourcing each group appropriately), it is not used by controllers or even ex-controllers. This is just one of the ways that AsA uses its statistics selectively or even in an entirely arse-about way and why I trust numbers from coal-face workers more than management.
Not sure who wrote it, but are they really not going to have TAAATS ready for the 2012 flight plan change-over in Nov??? Wow, don't want to be a flight data...
I agree with your point that stats can be used to prove anything (the use of maternity leave to 'prove' TFN's claim ATC's took too much sick leave last EBA negotiations was a perfect case) but your simple model fails because it fails to take account of the fact that if CX put on one more HK-ML flight, which adds one to the movement total, it passes through about 8 sectors from FIR entry to touchdown. That it then conflicts with the latest airline adding to the SY-SG route or the latest BN-PH aircraft, etc., etc., etc., is not recorded in that picture either.
The clever bods at AsA have a device which measures how many aircraft an open console is controlling. Management then use that data to see if sectors could have combined when they were split, which could lead to a reduction in staff required. What this fails to take account of is the complexity in dealing with the traffic that's there. For example, I have been busier with 3 aircraft on frequency than when I have had 12 but when this data is collected, no questions are asked of the controllers involved about what was happening. The data is then used by people in Canberra who are responsible for cutting controller numbers as much as possible (sorry, resourcing each group appropriately), it is not used by controllers or even ex-controllers. This is just one of the ways that AsA uses its statistics selectively or even in an entirely arse-about way and why I trust numbers from coal-face workers more than management.
Not sure who wrote it, but are they really not going to have TAAATS ready for the 2012 flight plan change-over in Nov??? Wow, don't want to be a flight data...
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My flawed model has more than one flaw. But that was the idea. 'We' can see that - it is obvious. The focus and emphasis should remain on the wastage outside of ATC - not on how hard done by you are with your broken chairs and large passenger numbers. After all you could just pad the chairs up a bit every second Thursday with all the overtime money you guys are getting!
the 'savings' would be split equally between the 'stakeholders' - i.e. the industry, Airservices Aust, and the Guvmint.
Thread drift, sorry.
Source: CANSO ATM Report & Directory 2011
I'll let someone else point out the obvious maths. The average per controller.....
Enjoy the negotiation chaps
Last edited by Plazbot; 5th Jun 2012 at 08:57.
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I get it, I get it. ASA aren't as efficient as they think.....not even close. But pretty close to Serbia actually. no
Plazbot - how does this factor in sector size differences and also seat comfort issues?
Plazbot - how does this factor in sector size differences and also seat comfort issues?
Last edited by Baileys; 5th Jun 2012 at 10:17.
On the topic of breakdown of separation, the graph on the right had 0.776/100000 movements.
Serbians don't sit on chairs but in baskets full of broken glass and snakes.
As for sector size, seeing the discussion is about movements per controller, tell me what is preferable, 15 aircraft in a 15x30 sector or 15 in a 150x300.
Hmmmmmmmm
Serbians don't sit on chairs but in baskets full of broken glass and snakes.
As for sector size, seeing the discussion is about movements per controller, tell me what is preferable, 15 aircraft in a 15x30 sector or 15 in a 150x300.
Hmmmmmmmm
Last edited by Plazbot; 5th Jun 2012 at 12:50.
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not on how hard done by you are with your broken chairs and large passenger numbers. After all you could just pad the chairs up a bit every second Thursday with all the overtime money you guys are getting!
I get paid what I get paid. Supply and demand right? Wrong. If supply and demand controlled it I'd be getting paid twice as much (which I think would be just about right by the way). In the end you show your true colours, bitching and moaning about what someone else is getting and you're not. Boo fecking Hoo for you mate
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Smoke, mirrors and statistics.
Smoke is widely used by Voodoo witch doctors to baffle the tribe.
Mirrors are mostly used by narcissists to keep things in perspective.
Statistics are used instead of pony pooh, to confound lower forms of intelligence.
Follow the money; the real numbers shine brightly from under the dross. If a corporation or bank blatantly, cynically and corruptly ripped off the public there would be an international scandal, headlines and fairy stories to terrify (or educate) future generations.
The public should ask for a true accounting; exactly how much hard cash has been tipped down the Swanee; how much has been sprayed up the wall on many failed projects, how much has been payed out in bonuses and packages to the numerous departed directors, managers etc., how much has been eaten, travelled on and used for purposes other than the safety of the Australian travelling public and the integrity of air traffic management.
Then ask how is it that having wasted this amount of money, was a 100 million dollar profit made from a clearly deficient service which relies on so very few to make it's indecent profits.
No Minister, it's not a good look. Taxi for the Minister please, oh! and a box trailer for his watchdogs.
Mirrors are mostly used by narcissists to keep things in perspective.
Statistics are used instead of pony pooh, to confound lower forms of intelligence.
Follow the money; the real numbers shine brightly from under the dross. If a corporation or bank blatantly, cynically and corruptly ripped off the public there would be an international scandal, headlines and fairy stories to terrify (or educate) future generations.
The public should ask for a true accounting; exactly how much hard cash has been tipped down the Swanee; how much has been sprayed up the wall on many failed projects, how much has been payed out in bonuses and packages to the numerous departed directors, managers etc., how much has been eaten, travelled on and used for purposes other than the safety of the Australian travelling public and the integrity of air traffic management.
Then ask how is it that having wasted this amount of money, was a 100 million dollar profit made from a clearly deficient service which relies on so very few to make it's indecent profits.
No Minister, it's not a good look. Taxi for the Minister please, oh! and a box trailer for his watchdogs.
Last edited by Kharon; 5th Jun 2012 at 21:25. Reason: Leave space for pig and trough pictures - Maestro ??.