Airservices CEO resigns
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I'd forgotten about that. There was talk of ML centre taking over ES too. Wasn't it driven by the RAAF being short of controllers? ASA are no longer in a position to help, even if the RAAF still needed or wanted it.
Thread Starter
So NB,
How do you think the airlines are going to feel when they find out the new ATC system may not be there until at least 2020 and struggle to have the capability that TAAATS offers???
That's the rumours going round at the moment.
Then the off the shelf joint purchase with the military might not look like the best idea...
and what about the next eight years ....
Hmmm
How do you think the airlines are going to feel when they find out the new ATC system may not be there until at least 2020 and struggle to have the capability that TAAATS offers???
That's the rumours going round at the moment.
Then the off the shelf joint purchase with the military might not look like the best idea...
and what about the next eight years ....
Hmmm
Last edited by ER_BN; 9th Jun 2012 at 19:19.
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hiwaytohell,
Others have put forward a couple. A couple that have affected the group I'm in:
1. The Training Academy was a disaster, ATC selection was close to a disaster. These points were known for some time. NOTHING was done about it because the DISASTER in charge was a 'yes woman,' told Russell what he wanted to hear. It looks like this situation may be on it's way back to reality. The fellow in charge of ATC has been around a long time. He's a bloke with integrity.
2. A return to core business. (Someone else has mentioned it but), a top down review of ALL administrative and management positions. Tell me one thing of value the NOC adds to this organisation?
3. Dismantling the whole structure at AWB. It is full of ATC haters. People jealous of our conditions and position.
4. People of integrity leading this organisation, not misleading industry, it's own employees, the government and regulating authorities.
5. The ALM structure MUST GO NOW. It has failed miserably compared to the team structure. One of the most concerning failures of this structure is the direct supervision and professional development of junior controllers.
Others have put forward a couple. A couple that have affected the group I'm in:
1. The Training Academy was a disaster, ATC selection was close to a disaster. These points were known for some time. NOTHING was done about it because the DISASTER in charge was a 'yes woman,' told Russell what he wanted to hear. It looks like this situation may be on it's way back to reality. The fellow in charge of ATC has been around a long time. He's a bloke with integrity.
2. A return to core business. (Someone else has mentioned it but), a top down review of ALL administrative and management positions. Tell me one thing of value the NOC adds to this organisation?
3. Dismantling the whole structure at AWB. It is full of ATC haters. People jealous of our conditions and position.
4. People of integrity leading this organisation, not misleading industry, it's own employees, the government and regulating authorities.
5. The ALM structure MUST GO NOW. It has failed miserably compared to the team structure. One of the most concerning failures of this structure is the direct supervision and professional development of junior controllers.
Last edited by Jack Ranga; 10th Jun 2012 at 02:27.
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Line Managers are the rung above ATC's. They are aisle supervisors with portfolios thrown on top.
A little history:
An ATC Group used to consist of a number of sectors (2-6ish). There were 3 teams, each with a Team Leader (operational controllers) and a Group Leader (operational). They managed on the job training, their sim training, budgets etc. Most importantly they had direct control and knowledge of their staff.
Teams were scrapped, an ALM structure was devised, positions were spilled with former TL's & GL's invited to apply for ALM with you guessed it AWA'S (individual contracts). It was a cynical, political statement. Most TL's & GL's told ASA to jamb it. ALM's selected were 2nd & 3rd choice, their motivations? Not all of them (2nd & 3rd choice) but a fair percentage. Most line controllers could give you a fair assessment of why they are there
There is no direct supervision of new controllers, I can give you a direct example of how this detrimentally affected one of our newbies. Most ALM's have no knowledge of the airspace that controllers are working. I can tell you some cracking stories of how this is all panning out but I'd better not!
A little history:
An ATC Group used to consist of a number of sectors (2-6ish). There were 3 teams, each with a Team Leader (operational controllers) and a Group Leader (operational). They managed on the job training, their sim training, budgets etc. Most importantly they had direct control and knowledge of their staff.
Teams were scrapped, an ALM structure was devised, positions were spilled with former TL's & GL's invited to apply for ALM with you guessed it AWA'S (individual contracts). It was a cynical, political statement. Most TL's & GL's told ASA to jamb it. ALM's selected were 2nd & 3rd choice, their motivations? Not all of them (2nd & 3rd choice) but a fair percentage. Most line controllers could give you a fair assessment of why they are there
There is no direct supervision of new controllers, I can give you a direct example of how this detrimentally affected one of our newbies. Most ALM's have no knowledge of the airspace that controllers are working. I can tell you some cracking stories of how this is all panning out but I'd better not!
Last edited by Jack Ranga; 11th Jun 2012 at 00:08.
Thread Starter
Jack,
Nice explanation,
I think most controllers would think destroying the operational team leaders and introducing the SDE farce were the two major deliberate mistakes of a hateful, ignorant and spiteful management early on in this crumbling regime.
The high tech stuff ups still to become obvious to most internally and externally, but the white TRUTH slowly appearing no matter what spin given to Senator Nick.
So many now in the organisation seem to have no idea of the core business so could be Task 1 of your ?cleanskin in the Academy!!
Still think it needs something more than Senate Estimates to get it all out and then fix it...
Nice explanation,
I think most controllers would think destroying the operational team leaders and introducing the SDE farce were the two major deliberate mistakes of a hateful, ignorant and spiteful management early on in this crumbling regime.
The high tech stuff ups still to become obvious to most internally and externally, but the white TRUTH slowly appearing no matter what spin given to Senator Nick.
So many now in the organisation seem to have no idea of the core business so could be Task 1 of your ?cleanskin in the Academy!!
Still think it needs something more than Senate Estimates to get it all out and then fix it...
Last edited by ER_BN; 10th Jun 2012 at 09:35.
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ER_BN,
The truth is that the Academy (yes, we hate it, but what choice do you have?) is coming out of a period that can only be described as 'corrupt'. The structure is in the process of changing, and the fact that a very respected and experienced operator is now in charge of the ATC School with executive control over both Instructors and Trainees proves that at least the re-structure has achieved one good outcome. Take it easy on the staff though..there is a small (but "enough" according to a Hansard I read recently..), dedicated band there doing the best they can with a. the cattle they are given and b. the decisions of others pressed on them. Rest assured there have been plenty of angry conversations in the office discussing the merits of allowing a trainee to be, for example, re-coursed (for the 2nd or 3rd time..) or sit 5 supps...but the word is that the expectation is that the days of 'KPIs' are hopefully over, maybe.
The truth is that the Academy (yes, we hate it, but what choice do you have?) is coming out of a period that can only be described as 'corrupt'. The structure is in the process of changing, and the fact that a very respected and experienced operator is now in charge of the ATC School with executive control over both Instructors and Trainees proves that at least the re-structure has achieved one good outcome. Take it easy on the staff though..there is a small (but "enough" according to a Hansard I read recently..), dedicated band there doing the best they can with a. the cattle they are given and b. the decisions of others pressed on them. Rest assured there have been plenty of angry conversations in the office discussing the merits of allowing a trainee to be, for example, re-coursed (for the 2nd or 3rd time..) or sit 5 supps...but the word is that the expectation is that the days of 'KPIs' are hopefully over, maybe.
Happy little campers at ASA!
Forgive me if this is posted elsewhere:
Flight safety fears as air staff bicker | The Courier-Mail
Senator X sums it up:
Forgive me if this is posted elsewhere:Flight safety fears as air staff bicker | The Courier-Mail
Senator X sums it up:
"This shows a deeply dysfunctional organisation and is made all the more alarming because they are responsible for safety in Australia's sky," he said.
Last edited by Sarcs; 10th Jun 2012 at 22:11.
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Rest assured there have been plenty of angry conversations in the office
discussing the merits of allowing a trainee to be, for example, re-coursed (for
the 2nd or 3rd time..) or sit 5 supps
discussing the merits of allowing a trainee to be, for example, re-coursed (for
the 2nd or 3rd time..) or sit 5 supps
I know of recent trainees who've failed every single exam they took, theory and prac. and were then sent to the field. We didn't know their history so had no pre-conceived ideas. Yes, score it as you see it but you can tell when a trainee sits down on famil with you whether they have a good chance of getting through.
I've heard about many of the screaming matches with some very qualified ATC's who were terminated or left in disgust. This 'manager' is now probably getting about on job placement websites spruiking her previous experience, god help us
Thread Starter
Independent senator Nick Xenophon said the cases exposed a dysfunctional organisation, and he confirmed at least four whistleblowers had already come forward
Documents released under Freedom of Information laws have revealed 65 critical cases of misconduct since June 2010 - 16 against air traffic controllers.
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Jack & others
Your feedback has been enlightening (and positive). While you are on a roll can you tell me what is the "technology" in the pipeline?
The people issues are one thing, but what are the tools/systems/technology that will be needed for your folks to do the job in 5 or 10 years time?
What is really coming and what is possible?
Your feedback has been enlightening (and positive). While you are on a roll can you tell me what is the "technology" in the pipeline?
The people issues are one thing, but what are the tools/systems/technology that will be needed for your folks to do the job in 5 or 10 years time?
What is really coming and what is possible?
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I've said this here somewhere before, but I heard of a meeting maybe two 1/2 years ago with a group that included a respected 30+ year operational/training/systems veteran who quietly buy firmly stated that the 'organisation will not be able to provide an Air Traffic Service in 5 years time..' Now, new in the 'crystal balling' game at the time, I put it down to his well known tendency to cynicism. But 2 years later?....
as some wag said "the only difference between cynicism and reality is experience" ?
as some wag said "the only difference between cynicism and reality is experience" ?
Last edited by Hempy; 11th Jun 2012 at 09:58.
From the outside, Airservices Australia is doing a fantastic job: no mid-airs, and $$$ return to government.
Going on the posts from the people who purport to be on the inside of the operational parts of Airservices Australia, it appears that the primary reason the organisation survives is that very thinly-stretched, qualified ATCers agree to overtime and other band-aid fixes for controller shortages.
Political reality: The punters don’t give a tinker’s cuss about the unseen mayhem at the ground end of the aircraft microphone, provided the punters get from A to B alive.
I’m not aware of any groundswell of punter discontent about the standard of ATC.
Practical reality: If a sufficient number of ATCers have sufficiently low levels of self esteem and sufficiently high levels of indispensability syndrome to shuffle off to work for Airservices Australia, year after year, despite the purportedly bad management, poor conditions and high risks, rather than leave to do something they enjoy for themselves or an employer they respect, the status quo will continue.
Sorry folks: Governments don’t care, until the polls require them to.
Going on the posts from the people who purport to be on the inside of the operational parts of Airservices Australia, it appears that the primary reason the organisation survives is that very thinly-stretched, qualified ATCers agree to overtime and other band-aid fixes for controller shortages.
Political reality: The punters don’t give a tinker’s cuss about the unseen mayhem at the ground end of the aircraft microphone, provided the punters get from A to B alive.
I’m not aware of any groundswell of punter discontent about the standard of ATC.
Practical reality: If a sufficient number of ATCers have sufficiently low levels of self esteem and sufficiently high levels of indispensability syndrome to shuffle off to work for Airservices Australia, year after year, despite the purportedly bad management, poor conditions and high risks, rather than leave to do something they enjoy for themselves or an employer they respect, the status quo will continue.
Sorry folks: Governments don’t care, until the polls require them to.
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Hmmm.. wonder what the "Polls" will show when two widebodies midair over downtown OZ city??
It would seem creamie you have nothing but contempt for dedication.
It would seem creamie you have nothing but contempt for dedication.
Last edited by thorn bird; 11th Jun 2012 at 12:14.
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torn bird,
sadly, it's true that nothing changes until something bad happens. In this case, it'll (and odds would suggest it's 'when' not 'if') result in a Royal Commission. The risk has always been there, the problem is that the odds (anecdotaly..) are shortening.
Creampuff,
No, the Government might not care. And no, the public in their ignorant bliss might not either, and yes, simple economic necessity and pure love of keeping aeroplanes apart keeps ATC's at the console. But, at the end of the day, if the newly minted controller who's just got through the college on his third crack and has had 5 or 6 weeks by himself working non-stop because of staffing pressure and perceived inability to say 'no' to overtime for fear of creating a bad impression with the new boss (because the new boss has given that impression..) has a really really bad day because his progress since being licenced hasn't been properly monitored because his supervisor doesn't know a thing about the airspace..well, he'll still go home that night and lie in his own bed. This is a pilots forum. This is a pilots issue, to be honest.
sadly, it's true that nothing changes until something bad happens. In this case, it'll (and odds would suggest it's 'when' not 'if') result in a Royal Commission. The risk has always been there, the problem is that the odds (anecdotaly..) are shortening.
Creampuff,
No, the Government might not care. And no, the public in their ignorant bliss might not either, and yes, simple economic necessity and pure love of keeping aeroplanes apart keeps ATC's at the console. But, at the end of the day, if the newly minted controller who's just got through the college on his third crack and has had 5 or 6 weeks by himself working non-stop because of staffing pressure and perceived inability to say 'no' to overtime for fear of creating a bad impression with the new boss (because the new boss has given that impression..) has a really really bad day because his progress since being licenced hasn't been properly monitored because his supervisor doesn't know a thing about the airspace..well, he'll still go home that night and lie in his own bed. This is a pilots forum. This is a pilots issue, to be honest.
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Taken from the Courier-mail story above...
Creampuff, what is it about that statement you don't understand? Everybody involved is aware something is very wrong- quantifiably wrong. The organisation is not meeting even it's own standards regarding Breakdowns of Separation. BoS' don't mean a mid-air occurs, but they do point to a greatly increased risk of one! Now, whilst Joe Public might have no idea about the actual risk in getting from A to B, you only get to roll the dice so many times before Joe Public finds out in a very big, messy, front-page sort of way. You seem to be saying that the government has no role to play in prevention- only in the cleanup afterwards... because that is when the public gets interested! AFTER the event. Extremely cynical, and IMHO, an incorrect viewpoint. Good government isn't necessarily poll-driven, nor should it only deal with topical issues. Sometimes the important things are what goes on unsung. True, it may not, of itself, win elections, but whatever happened to doing what is right? A concept that seems to have gone missing in this day and age.
The people at the coal face get pissed off because it doesn't have to be like this. Furthermore, this 'groundswell' of people moving out the door has always been there, it's just that being the only employer in this field in Australia, there is nowhere else to go except overseas- something that is not everyone's cup of tea. Many, many guys weigh up the prospect of leaving and doing something else, but find themselves trapped by the money. That is human nature. It's not 'indispensability syndrome', or low self esteem. It's also a source of a great many of the ills at AsA- the management (and the rest of the organisation) know they have the practitioners by the balls. Most guys love the job, hate the contemptuous way they are treated, having simply a choice to grin and bear it or leave and earn a lot less money- not very popular with wives/husbands/families- or, head off overseas- also not very popular with wives/husbands/families. So, effectively, there can never be a stampede of change, as you describe. Nothing to temper the lunacy that goes on in management except the stuff that is measurable to the outside world- and even that is a distortion (see the reduction in TIBA- then ask any controller why that is?).
Where are my "indispensability" pills?
The shocking cases came only weeks after Australia's air safety watchdog ordered a top-to-bottom review of Air Services Australia after too many close calls in the air
The people at the coal face get pissed off because it doesn't have to be like this. Furthermore, this 'groundswell' of people moving out the door has always been there, it's just that being the only employer in this field in Australia, there is nowhere else to go except overseas- something that is not everyone's cup of tea. Many, many guys weigh up the prospect of leaving and doing something else, but find themselves trapped by the money. That is human nature. It's not 'indispensability syndrome', or low self esteem. It's also a source of a great many of the ills at AsA- the management (and the rest of the organisation) know they have the practitioners by the balls. Most guys love the job, hate the contemptuous way they are treated, having simply a choice to grin and bear it or leave and earn a lot less money- not very popular with wives/husbands/families- or, head off overseas- also not very popular with wives/husbands/families. So, effectively, there can never be a stampede of change, as you describe. Nothing to temper the lunacy that goes on in management except the stuff that is measurable to the outside world- and even that is a distortion (see the reduction in TIBA- then ask any controller why that is?).
Where are my "indispensability" pills?
Yes, please don’t execute the messenger folks.
I don’t have ‘contempt for dedication’, thorn bird. I have nothing but admiration and gratitude for the work of ATC.
However, what do you think ‘know-nothing MBA qualified managers’ (to borrow a phrase from Sunfish) think about ‘dedicated’ employees. What a normal person sees as ‘dedication’, the ‘know-nothing MBA qualified manager’ sees as ‘patsy’.
Everybody? Really?
If the average punter was aware and cared, there’d be pressure for governments to change things.
So if we described that mindset to a psychiatrist, what do you think her prognosis would be?
I don’t have ‘contempt for dedication’, thorn bird. I have nothing but admiration and gratitude for the work of ATC.
However, what do you think ‘know-nothing MBA qualified managers’ (to borrow a phrase from Sunfish) think about ‘dedicated’ employees. What a normal person sees as ‘dedication’, the ‘know-nothing MBA qualified manager’ sees as ‘patsy’.
Everybody involved is aware something is very wrong- quantifiably wrong
If the average punter was aware and cared, there’d be pressure for governments to change things.
It's also a source of a great many of the ills at AsA- the management (and the rest of the organisation) know they have the practitioners by the balls. Most guys love the job, hate the contemptuous way they are treated, having simply a choice to grin and bear it or leave and earn a lot less money- not very popular with wives/husbands/families- or, head off overseas- also not very popular with wives/husbands/families..