Interesting Night At YPPH - 'EASTERLIES"....
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Interesting post Comoman.
I had a pilot relate to me a arrival with strong easterlies creating a rotor off the hills. He said they were between idle and TOGa on their third approach.
I had a pilot relate to me a arrival with strong easterlies creating a rotor off the hills. He said they were between idle and TOGa on their third approach.
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LMFAO, I think we're on the same page here so not sure what you're having a go at me for. 20 years as a professional and you just sign up on here and start having a go at everyone? Professional seems to be by trade only...
FWIW, I know exactly what its like with the easterlies at that time of night in the summer months in Perth - it's certainly not pretty. Agree with the comments that the stable approach criteria needs to be adapted to suit the conditions. Brief it prior and all is good. As to whether it was a good decision to try and approach in the first place? Well who knows, but plenty of questions to ask the 6 other aircraft as well.
I'm with you and it annoys me armchair experts carry on, but I guess we should have expected it on this topic.
To the guys (or gals) on this flight and without knowing anything other than whats been put on here...good job!
FWIW, I know exactly what its like with the easterlies at that time of night in the summer months in Perth - it's certainly not pretty. Agree with the comments that the stable approach criteria needs to be adapted to suit the conditions. Brief it prior and all is good. As to whether it was a good decision to try and approach in the first place? Well who knows, but plenty of questions to ask the 6 other aircraft as well.
I'm with you and it annoys me armchair experts carry on, but I guess we should have expected it on this topic.
To the guys (or gals) on this flight and without knowing anything other than whats been put on here...good job!
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Just to make things more interesting for some people that night the storms rolled in along the scarp over an hour earlier than forecast! Some nights it would be nicer to be punching out zzz's in your own bed instead... 
Some interesting comments here re fuel carriage.
There is a trend for the younger to follow the management push to not carry what they would consider, excessive fuel.
If this is your choice, then your options do become limited. You just have to manage what you put on in a sensible manner.
Perth deserves a lot of consideration in a number of possible wx events, also Brisbane.
If for example the TTF had a req'd for Tempo T/S's, my line of thought is to plan to use the 60mins then have another option remaining. This happened to me last year in Brissy, after 75mins holding down low due to giving away the first approach, we were on our last approach, then off to Sydney. We just landed prior to the next line of storms.
In that situation, we knew losing our divert option and staying longer to wait out the storms was not desirable.
Hence, having a few approaches up your sleeve at perth and then being able to proceed elsewhere would probably be a good pre flight consideration.
I concur with the previous comments regarding windshear detection systems.
For example, my last approach B737 (10years ago) into wellington, the wind was 320/48 gusting 65, in the final 20 feet after agressively managing the thrust to maintain an approp g/s, i selected TOGA and had max thrust but still going down, the windshear warning went off just prior to the main gear touching down, one of the smoothest landings ever, funnily.
Still had a few more approaches and altn fuel there as well.
YOU WANT IT? CARRY IT
There is a trend for the younger to follow the management push to not carry what they would consider, excessive fuel.
If this is your choice, then your options do become limited. You just have to manage what you put on in a sensible manner.
Perth deserves a lot of consideration in a number of possible wx events, also Brisbane.
If for example the TTF had a req'd for Tempo T/S's, my line of thought is to plan to use the 60mins then have another option remaining. This happened to me last year in Brissy, after 75mins holding down low due to giving away the first approach, we were on our last approach, then off to Sydney. We just landed prior to the next line of storms.
In that situation, we knew losing our divert option and staying longer to wait out the storms was not desirable.
Hence, having a few approaches up your sleeve at perth and then being able to proceed elsewhere would probably be a good pre flight consideration.
I concur with the previous comments regarding windshear detection systems.
For example, my last approach B737 (10years ago) into wellington, the wind was 320/48 gusting 65, in the final 20 feet after agressively managing the thrust to maintain an approp g/s, i selected TOGA and had max thrust but still going down, the windshear warning went off just prior to the main gear touching down, one of the smoothest landings ever, funnily.
Still had a few more approaches and altn fuel there as well.
YOU WANT IT? CARRY IT
Diverting out of Perth can bring its own problems anyway if there is a major issue both both YPKG and YGEL are going to fill up quickly so your alternate may not be available due to ramp congestion. Especially so if a unforecasted wx event happens and everybody gets caught out. What then? I am certainly coming around to the belief that something needs to be put in place legally for Perth. If it all goes bad over there you can run out of options very quickly.
The thing about flying in Australia is that we have very limited options due to a lack of infrastructure and facilities and generally poor and unpredictable ATC. This is usually brought about by archaic rules and procedures. Unlike the rest of the world where you have multiple options everywhere Australia often you have one option and thats it.
Hopefully much is learnt from this incident and maybe the min fuel brigade will consider their options.
The thing about flying in Australia is that we have very limited options due to a lack of infrastructure and facilities and generally poor and unpredictable ATC. This is usually brought about by archaic rules and procedures. Unlike the rest of the world where you have multiple options everywhere Australia often you have one option and thats it.
Hopefully much is learnt from this incident and maybe the min fuel brigade will consider their options.
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The thing about flying in Australia is that we have very limited options due to a lack of infrastructure and facilities and generally poor and unpredictable ATC. This is usually brought about by archaic rules and procedures. Unlike the rest of the world where you have multiple options everywhere Australia often you have one option and thats it
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Heated Ice detector, there is no mention of the crew in that incident contemplating ditching. The fact is they did not and neither did the crew in the apocryphal actual incident which occurred in the 80's.
From The West today (by GT):
Passengers held hands, whispered "I love you" and prayed when the second attempt by pilots of a Virgin Australia Boeing 737 to land at Perth Airport on January 3 ended abruptly with a roar of engines as go-around power was applied.
For soon-to-be-married couple Brian Cherry and Sue Oldfield, Flight 697 from Melbourne to Perth that required three attempts to land was the "worst flight of their lives".
On Tuesday, _The West Australian _revealed details of the freak weather conditions that caused chaos for controllers as they tried to get planes down safely.
The incident has prompted Virgin to review its fuel policy for Perth flights after Flight 697 was caught dangerously low on fuel.
"The turbulence was incredible and if you weren't strapped in you would have been on the ceiling," Mr Cherry said.
"On the second attempt the turbulence was so bad you couldn't focus visually with all the buffeting," Ms Oldfield said.
"Everything then went very quiet and there were just faint whispers of 'I love you'.
"Suddenly you realised what was important in life."
Unbeknown to the couple, their flight's fuel state was critical and the controllers and pilots in the same predicament were contemplating other options away from the Hills, including Rottnest and Gingin.
That predicament was wind gusts of more than 100km/h above 80m (altitude) and 60km/h on the runway with a significant crosswind on all runways. There was severe windshear off the Hills.
The freak winds - and turbulence - increased in strength about 9.20pm, 10 minutes before Flight 697 was due to land.
The pilot's first attempt was on the main north-to-south runway 21. It was aborted and the plane directed to a holding pattern.
About 10pm, Flight 697 was directed to a landing on runway 06, but it was forced to abort at 10.15pm.
At that time the Virgin captain advised controllers he only had fuel "for one more approach". The airline says there was enough for another 20 to 30 minutes of flying.
But the passengers were oblivious to the dramas unfolding.
"Understandably, we had no idea," Mr Cherry said. "However, the crew were so professional and calm and reassuring. There was cheering and clapping for them when we finally touched down."
For soon-to-be-married couple Brian Cherry and Sue Oldfield, Flight 697 from Melbourne to Perth that required three attempts to land was the "worst flight of their lives".
On Tuesday, _The West Australian _revealed details of the freak weather conditions that caused chaos for controllers as they tried to get planes down safely.
The incident has prompted Virgin to review its fuel policy for Perth flights after Flight 697 was caught dangerously low on fuel.
"The turbulence was incredible and if you weren't strapped in you would have been on the ceiling," Mr Cherry said.
"On the second attempt the turbulence was so bad you couldn't focus visually with all the buffeting," Ms Oldfield said.
"Everything then went very quiet and there were just faint whispers of 'I love you'.
"Suddenly you realised what was important in life."
Unbeknown to the couple, their flight's fuel state was critical and the controllers and pilots in the same predicament were contemplating other options away from the Hills, including Rottnest and Gingin.
That predicament was wind gusts of more than 100km/h above 80m (altitude) and 60km/h on the runway with a significant crosswind on all runways. There was severe windshear off the Hills.
The freak winds - and turbulence - increased in strength about 9.20pm, 10 minutes before Flight 697 was due to land.
The pilot's first attempt was on the main north-to-south runway 21. It was aborted and the plane directed to a holding pattern.
About 10pm, Flight 697 was directed to a landing on runway 06, but it was forced to abort at 10.15pm.
At that time the Virgin captain advised controllers he only had fuel "for one more approach". The airline says there was enough for another 20 to 30 minutes of flying.
But the passengers were oblivious to the dramas unfolding.
"Understandably, we had no idea," Mr Cherry said. "However, the crew were so professional and calm and reassuring. There was cheering and clapping for them when we finally touched down."
Last edited by Capn Bloggs; 28th Jan 2012 at 06:42. Reason: Added graphic from paper.
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Anyone can be a reporter these days. Regardless of one's capability.
Perhaps Geoffrey Thomas should be a reporter for Today Tonight or A Current Affair. That's where his credibility lies 
Better still, as he now sounds like more like a drama queen than a reporter, he might be more suited as a script writer for Neighbours or Home and Away.
Aviation expert, MY ARSE!
Better still, as he now sounds like more like a drama queen than a reporter, he might be more suited as a script writer for Neighbours or Home and Away.
Aviation expert, MY ARSE!
Last edited by Hugh Jarse; 28th Jan 2012 at 07:48. Reason: Tidy up
Thread Starter
So, begs the question.....
What ARE the fuel reqs for a 'typical' flight SY/ML/BN - PH as the 'norm'..??
Different Co's = diff. 'requirements'???
Captain's decision entirely? i.e. No 'Co. Policy'...
i.e. Nil Inter/Tempo, Nil ATC req's holding, etc etc.....
He did 'hold' basically for the hour....
Just curious is all......NO dispersions....
Cheers
What ARE the fuel reqs for a 'typical' flight SY/ML/BN - PH as the 'norm'..??
Different Co's = diff. 'requirements'???
Captain's decision entirely? i.e. No 'Co. Policy'...
i.e. Nil Inter/Tempo, Nil ATC req's holding, etc etc.....
He did 'hold' basically for the hour....
Just curious is all......NO dispersions....
Cheers
With the benefit of hindsight, Runway 21 for the first attempt was not a good idea; all cross with a bit of downwind.
Perhaps 06 will be used more often with strong easterlies and turbulence...
Jarse, dramatic, yes, but good lessons for the aviation community, nevertheless. How would we have found out about it had it not been for GT's articles? I have no doubt that the safety of ops to Perth has benefitted from this event. I have certainly re-jigged my level of air in the tanks in this scenario.
Griffo, no requirements at all that night. Captain decides but not below the company minimums.
Perhaps 06 will be used more often with strong easterlies and turbulence...
Jarse, dramatic, yes, but good lessons for the aviation community, nevertheless. How would we have found out about it had it not been for GT's articles? I have no doubt that the safety of ops to Perth has benefitted from this event. I have certainly re-jigged my level of air in the tanks in this scenario.
Griffo, no requirements at all that night. Captain decides but not below the company minimums.
Thread Starter
Aye Aye Cap'n!
And for HJ....
NOPE!!
No Names / No 'Packdrill'.....(I'm NOT 'GT'..)
Any differences will be apparent......
e.g. someone might say 30 mins + 'Island Reserve'...
Someone else might say 'looking at' YPKG ALL the time.
Flights in from the N - 'Asia' - used to nominate YPLM - but...its a 'fair stretch' back....if you've 'held' a bit too long....
Nil 'real' facilities at Meeka....apart from the rwy...& Jet A1....
I've had a couple of 727's pop into YPKG in the 'late hrs' for 'more' fuel, when I was FSO'ing there - usually due FOG in PH.....sometimes...NOT fcst!!
Cheers
And for HJ....
NOPE!!
No Names / No 'Packdrill'.....(I'm NOT 'GT'..)
Any differences will be apparent......
e.g. someone might say 30 mins + 'Island Reserve'...
Someone else might say 'looking at' YPKG ALL the time.
Flights in from the N - 'Asia' - used to nominate YPLM - but...its a 'fair stretch' back....if you've 'held' a bit too long....
Nil 'real' facilities at Meeka....apart from the rwy...& Jet A1....
I've had a couple of 727's pop into YPKG in the 'late hrs' for 'more' fuel, when I was FSO'ing there - usually due FOG in PH.....sometimes...NOT fcst!!
Cheers
Personally, the bare bones minimum I want to plan to turn up with on a nice day is one hour of fuel in the tanks. My reasoning for that is that there are quite a few non-normals that will take you a good half hour to work through. I will normally plan for more than that as things are rarely forecast to be perfect. I agree that this being public has increased safety.