Interesting Night At YPPH - 'EASTERLIES"....

[Icarus2001]

Come on Bloggs. Must be Stockholm Syndrome from all those RAPAC meetings.

Gatwick in the UK averages 52 movements per hour on a SINGLE runway.

Now one argument is that aircraft arrive and depart there from all around the compass whereas YPPH has traffic arriving and departing in about 200 degrees of arc.

Even allowing for this, add in slow turboprops (but we are all 250 below 10,000) and then allow for TWO active runways at YPPH what do you think the runway movement rate should be? Any idea?

EDIT to add: YPPH annual movements is approaching 134,00 pa
Gatwick did 244,741 last year with ONE RUNWAY and UK weather.

[Awol57]

The tower could more than likely launch you at a rate similar to that. Just means that Departures and Centre will be slowing you all down at a massive rate to get the 20nm required as you all drop out of Radar coverage. If we had radar coverage across this vast brown (red) land then it might be a different story. Until that changes though, it will be an ongoing issue.

Then west radar and west p will just need more staff

[Icarus2001]

slowing you all down at a massive rate to get the 20nm required as you all drop out of Radar coverage

ADSB required by end of 2013.

Another reason for the tower to process aircraft at "READY" by direction of departure as well as type of aircraft. If aircraft A is going North the next departure should be on an Easterly track (if possible)etc, 20nm at 250K is 4.8 minutes.

What about vertical sep if longitudinal not established by end of radar at 250nm?

Start using 24 for departures, this noise abatement needs challenging. What about an early right turn off 24 to assist? Or turboprops only?

I find it hard to believe that we cannot improve the situation even without changing the FIFO schedules.

[Awol57]

I don't do Centre so I am not sure why they don't use verts (though getting them on the other end with the high one as number one isn't very useful). ADSB will help for the high stuff.

I am but a lowly tower controller that operates with the confines of the rules. If only I could make the rules

[Sequencer]

I am but a lowly tower controller that operates with the confines of the rules. If only I could make the rules

Don't worry Awol57 and P-Dubby, NN & Icarus2001 are probably just GA pilots in jets. They are ones taking 30 seconds to roll every time and forever to get off the runway. 47 in an hour the other day and several 40+ in the last 6 weeks. Not a high speed exit in sight....

It will all be fixed after the wise men from NATS have been here late Feb but we digress from the topic....

[josephfeatherweight]

Unannounced holding; speed up slow down; min speed in the cruise to 10000' followed by track shortening and keep your speed up for as long a possible; excessive separation limitations, no speed control to speak of, 20 to run that ends up being 35, traffic holding on a quiet blue skies Saturday Afternoon......

I do have to agree with NN - I have experienced similar games into YPPH over the last 24 months. The standard prediction when given min speed on descent is "What's the bet we get max speed when we switch to Approach AND track shortening???" Often, we are correct...

Nobody's ever died from pressing...

[Icarus2001]

Awol57 and P-Dubby, NN & Icarus2001 are probably just GA pilots in jets

What does that even mean?

They are ones taking 30 seconds to roll every time

From entering the flight strip, sounds about right. Perhaps we could have been lined up on 03 whilst the crossing on 06 was thinking about rolling, then we would have been ready to go.

and forever to get off the runway.

When we are heavy and it is hot, it definately takes longer to get into the air. The 3-5 knots of downwind does not help but we cannot even consider a runway change, best you guys just land long and fast, but make sure you get off soon.

47 in an hour the other day and several 40+ in the last 6 weeks

Great to hear. What is the average?

[Sequencer]

NN - you still haven't substantiated your comments.

He can't, just war stories. He's the only one flying you know, that's why he gets all the bad ATC.

I'am probably not helping here but it's fun

[le Pingouin]

EDIT to add: YPPH annual movements is approaching 134,00 pa
Gatwick did 244,741 last year with ONE RUNWAY and UK weather.

A plain average is next to useless - without being able to analyse the distribution of arrivals & departures or considering other influential factors it's rather difficult to compare.

[Sequencer]

What does that even mean

Not an airline pilot.

From entering the flight strip, sounds about right. Perhaps we could have been lined up on 03 whilst the crossing on 06 was thinking about rolling, then we would have been ready to go.

I am talking about from lined up, it happens regularly.

When we are heavy and it is hot, it definately takes longer to get into the air

I am talking about after landing, there is one operator who is required to be below 5 kts before turning off the runway, very frustrating. The ROT (runway occupancy time) at PH is woeful, we lose 2-4 slots an hour.

Great to hear. What is the average?

From memory about 34 (2230-2330) during the morning departure burst, that includes the Christmas/New Year period for weekdays only. You'll never get 52 unless you all start flying medium jets and pull your finger out. It could be improved by ATC (just more consistent performance) and pilots (better compliance with slots and better ROT discipline) but it's hard to get the human element out of it.

[nitpicker330]

Sorry but you can make all the excuses you like but sit by the side of RWY 27R in LHR one day with a scanner and see how it's done by the pros.

I accept that there will be differences, runway exits available, radar accuracy etc but........they are bloody amazing day in day out in all kinds of weather.

I had the privilege if sitting in their Tower for 4 hrs one day plugged in to watch close up. Couldn't have met a nicer bunch of blokes working their asses off for their entire shift.


Edited:--- I must add that I don't blame our Aust ATCO's. They work well within the system they've been given.

[Awol57]

Why not go visit Perth tower and see what the constraints are from the other side of the microphone? Compare LHR and Perth. We don't (or at least we didn't when I was there) just sit around wandering how we can delay the next aircraft Or do we

Just out of curiousity does LHR have auto release?

[nitpicker330]

I don't know if they have "auto release" or "auto anything"

All I know is that their system seems to work efficiently much much harder day in day out in all kinds of weather with all kinds of Aircraft.

Yes they do have the odd missed approach due to very close spacing but it works.

[Awol57]

Did they have to call Departures prior to them clearing everyone for takeoff?

[nitpicker330]

I guess they stick rigidly to set arrival and departure tracks so the Tower controller doesn't have to get a release for each Aircraft. It was 10 years ago but I don't think he spoke on the intercom to downstairs? He just used common sense in regards to Aircraft types and which way it was going and then fired em off!!

Seems to work.

[Awol57]

Cool, sorry I simplified it a bit but that's the easiest way to find out about auto release - which it sounds like they did. That can also help speed things up. I think Perth tower has tried for it a couple of times but the IFR traffic into Jandakot (and at Pearce to an extent) affects it I believe. A TMA or Centre person could probably elaborate on that more.

[nitpicker330]

Change arrival and departure tracks so there is no conflict initially. Then you could fire em off too!! Surely if they can do it in LHR and LGW all of the time we could too. Might take some rule changes but hey...........

Where there's a will there's a way.

[Awol57]

I have no argument there. Pity none of us are in a position to make those rule changes!

[nitpicker330]

Well they will have to get serious if they want to fix the problem.

Re design the airspace
Re design SIDS and STARS
More Rapid exits on the RWY
Education program to operators regarding ROT and Speed control on app
Strict speed control on app to fit more in.

Auto release....

[Capn Bloggs]

I do have to agree with NN - I have experienced similar games into YPPH over the last 24 months. The standard prediction when given min speed on descent is "What's the bet we get max speed when we switch to Approach AND track shortening???" Often, we are correct...

You must have been the chap in the [insert European-made jet here] that missed their Feeder Fix time by over a minute (late) and messed me around this morning.

So Nev, when do you hit the Feeder Fix? At Time+0, Time+30, or Time+55? That's 5 track miles between those, which means a hell of a lot of dicking around of the bloke behind you if you're at +55 and he's doing the right thing at Time+0.

For those of you who can't stand speed control, what do you do in the cockpit on descent? Still playing on your ipads and don't want to be interrupted??

Iccy, rave on, son. Most of your points have been shot down. Please explain the value of using 24 when it crosses 21, costs more in fuel to taxi-to compared to using 21 to the west, and half the jets departing turn right off 21 anyway?

ADSB? Come back and have a whinge about departure rates after it has been introduced. BTW, I was going to say about 45 mph but got beaten to it.

Give us high speed taxiways, ground to ionosphere indentification across the country, a real slot system, remove most of the boats, get pilots to fly properly and then we can fairly compare your beloved Gatwick.