QANTAS Exodus
I'm all for debating the issue waren9. No seniority would suit my short term interests just fine. I'd love to give the Leprechaun the finger as I took up a direct entry Virgin Command. Not very fair to all the less experienced and younger FOs over there who are finally seeing their futures brighten though..
So in the interests of context pertaining to your contribution to the debate, would your experience levels permit a DEC in any company in Aus?
Or are you personally willing to have your present career path take an indefinite hit for the
So in the interests of context pertaining to your contribution to the debate, would your experience levels permit a DEC in any company in Aus?
Or are you personally willing to have your present career path take an indefinite hit for the
betterment of all Pilots
In a small market such as Australia the no seniority rule would destroy the career progression of pilots as it would open up direct entry commands to anyone in the world who has Australian Citizenship or residency. Given that Australia is a favourable place to live, people from all over the world will be shafting each other to get a command. The companies will love it as they will get people with command time on type minimal training required and plenty of people will put in low ball bids just to be able to fly in Australia. Expats can afford a low salary as they are already cashed up, people escaping less favourable countries will be more than happy to take low pay just to live in a safe secure environment. You will then get someone in a management position who will then want all his mates as captains and without seniority there will be plenty of jobs for the boys. As I said above it will create the situation where to qualify for a command you have to spend years in some exotic location just to get the minimums to qualify for a command.
It will be GA all over again.
It will be GA all over again.
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Originally Posted by waren9
Management and their tactics have evolved dramatically over the years
They're still just as blinkered and completely clueless as to what is going on at the coal face as they always were. A classic example was Lyell Strambi changing his flight out of LAX at the last minute only to be horrified inflight that there wasn't enough food loaded for business class. Of course, none of the junior managers were forewarned that this would happen, so he got the real Qantas service, born and bred through instigation of KPIs etc, as opposed to the "**WARNING** Group Executive Qantas Airlines is on this flight!" service which would've involved full catering plus a secret stash of extra fine wine taken out of a slush fund held for just that purpose.
And acts of bastardry and selfishness from management have been around for eons and are still enacted upon employees without warning just as regularly now as they were in the 1800s.
It has just become a bit more of a technological and PR game, with modern newsmedia etc. The basics haven't changed much. Shove their noses into the ground while jobs are tight, then wonder in total bewilderment why on earth they're all leaving when jobs are not.
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Again, you are both pointing to the short term pains of why we shouldnt. I also disagree with Nevilles major contention, even Jetstars EBA says all pilots shall be offered it on joining. Buchanan wants rid of it, so just negotiate all the protections you want in return for giving it up.
I am an FO that scores well (I'm told) in cyclics so make your own mind up how I would be affected.
Edited to add that if Nevilles concerns were valid there would have been even more Jetstar DEC's. None of them are on B or C scales.
I am an FO that scores well (I'm told) in cyclics so make your own mind up how I would be affected.
Edited to add that if Nevilles concerns were valid there would have been even more Jetstar DEC's. None of them are on B or C scales.
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Well in the course of my career so far I have operated in two airlines who have NOT had a seniority list aswell as in one legacy carrier where seniority was king. I would have to say my preference is to have some sort of seniority as it gives a structure to the postings and promotions. With no list, everything is very 'murky' when it comes to who is awarded in command vacancies, training places, leave etc... There is always a suspicion that, far from things being awarded on merit, they are awarded on if your used to fly with the chief pilot in a previous life, or if you get on with the guy who interviews you for the new position. I have always done well out of this and twice been offered commands before more 'senior' colleagues. It is just not ideal, I liked the security of knowing when I was going to be eligible for command, even though at the time I was 10 - 12 years away from one. I liked the fact that everyone was given a 'crack' at the command course regardless of people thinking they were 'toss*rs'. Remember that the training department always had ways of ensuring those not suitable received re-education.
The only problem I can see with seniority is it does restrict your ability to move freely between airlines when you attain a certain level, perhaps this is a good thing as flying is one of those jobs when 'stability' in the workforce is important for 'safety' reasons. And at the end of the day I think I should get a better seat on staff travel if I have been in the airline longer than the person in front of me in the que, likewise I remember once I missed out on a first class seat once as I was trumped by a check in staff member who had been in the airline for 24 years as opposed to my 7 years, once again this is more than fair in my opinion.
The only problem I can see with seniority is it does restrict your ability to move freely between airlines when you attain a certain level, perhaps this is a good thing as flying is one of those jobs when 'stability' in the workforce is important for 'safety' reasons. And at the end of the day I think I should get a better seat on staff travel if I have been in the airline longer than the person in front of me in the que, likewise I remember once I missed out on a first class seat once as I was trumped by a check in staff member who had been in the airline for 24 years as opposed to my 7 years, once again this is more than fair in my opinion.
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Close Qantas down and start afresh!
Together with the other QF thread, all we hear is all the whinging and whining. Face it; most aussie pilots are very insular in outlook with unbelievable self delusional self possession disguised as self belief. Their small theatre of operation with overly conservative operational practices lead to the delusion of great safety; nobody outside of Oz is easily fooled except for the small minded insular aussies who are kept in awe with those chest thumping self proclaimed sky gods.
The time has come for all national flag carriers to embrace total globalisation with open skies, open hiring, etc.
The time has come for all national flag carriers to embrace total globalisation with open skies, open hiring, etc.
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Face it; most aussie pilots are very insular in outlook with unbelievable self delusional self possession disguised as self belief.
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Sad thing Akali is that the cheats in the subcontinent have no back up..your corrupt officers sing when cornered and the guys get caught. Maybe the crabs pulling others down syndrome in play.
The Oz nationals that cheat; different ballgame. Their networks warn them off; like the recent Jet Airways cheat was warned off by his fellows way ahead.
The Oz nationals that cheat; different ballgame. Their networks warn them off; like the recent Jet Airways cheat was warned off by his fellows way ahead.
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Akali, how do you reason that overly conservative operational practices lead to the delusion of great safety?? Conservatism promotes safety you ****. I hope Indian pilots don't struggle with basic reasoning as much as you do. Otherwise that would be a real safety concern.
As you're not averse to the use of generalisations, I think you should get back to work, is that a phone I hear ringing???
Now back to thread.
As you're not averse to the use of generalisations, I think you should get back to work, is that a phone I hear ringing???
Now back to thread.
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The time has come for all national flag carriers to embrace total globalisation with open skies, open hiring, etc.
Greatest cheats are Oz nationals,
And above all my flying friend, be patient, it is only a matter of time until JQ launch Orangestar India and you get your ride in the right hand seat anyway. Boston Bruce and the Oirishman's dream of a world dominated Qanstar enterprise and empire is just over the horizon !!
For you Akali Dal :
Transparency International - the global coalition against corruption
Corruption Perceptions Index - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Australia is ranked 8th in the world, in the "corruption index rankings" table, with a corruption index of 8.7, meaning very little corruption.
India is ranked 87 out of 178, with a corruption index of 3.3, meaning very corrupt.
You tell me greatest cheats are Oz nationals ?
Transparency International - the global coalition against corruption
Corruption Perceptions Index - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Australia is ranked 8th in the world, in the "corruption index rankings" table, with a corruption index of 8.7, meaning very little corruption.
India is ranked 87 out of 178, with a corruption index of 3.3, meaning very corrupt.
You tell me greatest cheats are Oz nationals ?
Thread Starter
Keg, there's one nice thing about starting a thread...
I'll leave it up to the mods but it would be nice if there was some chance this could get back on topic.
I'll leave it up to the mods but it would be nice if there was some chance this could get back on topic.
Nunc est bibendum
must say the fish are biting today!
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In an attempt to bring the thread back on topic.... are those who are leaving Qantas taking LWOP or resigning completely? Now that EK is accepting QF guys with LWOP, would be interested to find out if people are so fed up with QF they are still choosing to resign.
are those who are leaving Qantas taking LWOP or resigning completely? Now that EK is accepting QF guys with LWOP, would be interested to find out if people are so fed up with QF they are still choosing to resign.
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Resign or LWOP? Is there really a difference? I suspect EK will dangle the command carrot on condition of a resignation letter so it is really a moot point.
I suspect even those that go on LWOP realise that it is a one way trip. The reality is that to make financial sense EK probably requires a minimum of 10 to 12 years. Taking the EK option also knocks out any possibility of the MOU because the ghost slots will be filled on a first in first serve basis. Missing an MOU now put you down the back of the queue.
So therefore, the choices are relatively simple. MOU, stay and take your chances or join any of the fast expanding carriers in the Asia/ME. Experienced Captains have the additional option of contract work for types in demand.
As has been pointed out, a certain demographic (30~45) can't afford to waste more time on something that may or may not happen for a "legacy lepper" in the Qantas group. This core will move on quickly to try to recover their career. In reality, most of that experience is likely to leave the QF group, and unlikely to return for the foreseeable future.
I suspect even those that go on LWOP realise that it is a one way trip. The reality is that to make financial sense EK probably requires a minimum of 10 to 12 years. Taking the EK option also knocks out any possibility of the MOU because the ghost slots will be filled on a first in first serve basis. Missing an MOU now put you down the back of the queue.
So therefore, the choices are relatively simple. MOU, stay and take your chances or join any of the fast expanding carriers in the Asia/ME. Experienced Captains have the additional option of contract work for types in demand.
As has been pointed out, a certain demographic (30~45) can't afford to waste more time on something that may or may not happen for a "legacy lepper" in the Qantas group. This core will move on quickly to try to recover their career. In reality, most of that experience is likely to leave the QF group, and unlikely to return for the foreseeable future.
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LWOP?
BB covered most of it. Most that I know of going have taken the LWOP option. However, I don't know of anyone that is actively using it as part of their plan. I've heard it described best as an 'insurance policy'. Also, they have all put in requests for LWOP but been prepared to resign if it is turned down. It was pointed out earlier that those leaving now actually started the process before the 24 Aug announcement. I reckon that is spot on. After last weeks events, the number of guys out actively looking will have increased enormously. Unfortunately for them, I doubt they will be able to get LWOP and will have to make the full jump rather than toe in the water.
I'm not surprised to hear there are shortages in certain ranks. I suspect that will continue for the next year or so until the movements all settle down. One resignation a day sounds ominous until you remember that the current surplus requires one resignation a day for around six months........
BB covered most of it. Most that I know of going have taken the LWOP option. However, I don't know of anyone that is actively using it as part of their plan. I've heard it described best as an 'insurance policy'. Also, they have all put in requests for LWOP but been prepared to resign if it is turned down. It was pointed out earlier that those leaving now actually started the process before the 24 Aug announcement. I reckon that is spot on. After last weeks events, the number of guys out actively looking will have increased enormously. Unfortunately for them, I doubt they will be able to get LWOP and will have to make the full jump rather than toe in the water.
I'm not surprised to hear there are shortages in certain ranks. I suspect that will continue for the next year or so until the movements all settle down. One resignation a day sounds ominous until you remember that the current surplus requires one resignation a day for around six months........