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Senate Inquiry, Hearing Program 4th Nov 2011

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Senate Inquiry, Hearing Program 4th Nov 2011

Old 1st Jul 2013, 05:21
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Sarcs

Paragraph (a) is only one of two, cumulative, criteria for disallowance to take effect under the provision you quoted.

Paragraph (a): notice of disallowance given in time – tick.

Paragraph (b): 15 sitting days have elapsed after the notice of disallowance was given – cross.

In any event, 42(3) is probably going to be an important provision in this case.

If the House of Reps is dissolved before the motion is voted on or 15 sitting days of the Senate elapses, the business before the Senate, including notices of motion, terminates. It’s therefore almost certain Senator X’s motion of disallowance will be terminated - i.e. no longer have any effect.

However, an effect of 42(3) is that the CAO will be taken to have been laid before the Senate on the first day the Senate sits after House of Reps was dissolved. At that point, Senator X or someone else will (again) have 15 sitting days in which to move a motion of disallowance, and there will (again) need to be 15 sitting days after that motion, or resolution to support it, before the CAO will be disallowed.
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Old 1st Jul 2013, 08:59
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Okay thanks for that Creamy, that certainly clears it up! Hmm....still a good move by NX certainly shows that even a singular independent can still have an influence on the Parliament

By the way I noticed Cybercasa also agrees with you Creamy!!

'Cybercasa'

Maybe "K", 004, 601 or Sunny could pose a Q or two...seems they're reasonably amenable to replying?? {Had a touch of the Ds, cheers Fantome!}

Estimates report is out:

Budget estimates 2013-14

June 2013
© Commonwealth of Australia 2013
View the report as a single document - (PDF)

Last edited by Sarcs; 1st Jul 2013 at 21:41. Reason: Wow...Cybercasa even works past 17:00!
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Old 1st Jul 2013, 11:51
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CAsA Selfies??? Cyber technology Regulatory style!

Cybercasa hey? I've heard of cyber sex but cybercasa?? That is just downright disgusting, kinky, but disgusting!

I imagine CAsA 'Selfies' will be their next venture in the cyber world? Selfies such as;
• The Screaming Skull posing nude alongside pot plant Pete.
• The Voodoo witch doctor posing in PNG with a medicine man while holding a copy of the new ICAO Annexe 19.
• The deputy DAS posing in front of a bathroom mirror without his false teeth in and wearing nothing but his beige slippers and latex undies (easy to wash).
• The entire executive team posing with their snouts in a trough.
• Group shots of all while attending silly seminars in Montreal, Washington DC, Singapore and the Maldives.
• Selfie shots of Bankstown AWI's playing 'nude leapfrog'!

Indeed, I am certain one of the GWM mates can assist with the implementation of such robust technology.

Last edited by 004wercras; 1st Jul 2013 at 11:56. Reason: Mistook the elephant in the middle of Albo's room for Joolia. Whoops.
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Old 1st Jul 2013, 13:26
  #2204 (permalink)  
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Maybe "K", 004, 601 or Sunny could pose a Q or two...seems they're reasonably amendable to replying??
If we still had the CP/CFI meetings that we used to have, we could ask a real CASA person, not some bit or byte twittering away in cyberspace
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Old 1st Jul 2013, 20:29
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From senate estimates report.

3.35 The committee raised the perceived fear within the aviation industry of
retribution for speaking out against the Civil Aviation Safety Authority (CASA).
Mr McCormick, told the committee that he was:
…at a lost to understand this… no one has brought anything to me or to my
industry complaints commissioner to complain about bullying or
harassment.37
3.36 He also gave the following guarantee that 'if anybody threatens retribution
from within CASA or carries out retribution we will take action'.38
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Old 1st Jul 2013, 21:17
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Maybe "K", 004, 601 or Sunny could pose a Q or two...seems they're reasonably amendable to replying?
Sarcs ol' chasp . . . amendable? amenable?

Even the deeply rooted anarchist in me accepts that, adhering to the precepts of the well ordered society, I needs must be, for the most part -

1. Responsive to advice, authority, or suggestion; willing. 2. Responsible to higher authority; accountable:

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx xx

To digress (irony) . . . . reading again the good senators' laments, how can the conclusion not be drawn that the country's in the very worst of hands . . the worst of hands . You can say the solution is in the ballot box, but surely it is not as cut and dried as that.

Where are the best reformist brains?
And how can the great unwashed ever be persuaded to take an interest?

Last edited by Fantome; 1st Jul 2013 at 21:18.
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Old 1st Jul 2013, 21:21
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Yeah Biccy priceless isn't it!

Bit like this statement from the Chair:



How about this bit right from the start of the report:
Corporate Services
3.3 The committee asked the department to provide an indication of when the government's response to the Senate Rural and Regional Affairs and Transport Reference Committee's Aviation Accident Investigations report, which was tabled in the Senate on 23 May 2013, will be provided. The committee is mindful that the three month time period for government responses, as outlined in Senate Resolution 42(1)1, will fall during the upcoming caretaker period.2

3.4 The Secretary, Mr Mike Mrdak told the committee:
…I am not in a position here today to give you an exact time frame as to when the minister and government will formally respond to the report… we are all very conscious of the fact that with the date of the federal election being proposed for 14 September and caretaker mode notionally starting on around 12 August that would fall within the normal three-month period. I can only say to you that the government is giving this serious and urgent consideration and looking to expedite its response as best it can.3
Sure glad that DoIT and the Minister are not part of an emergency evac team responding to a P1 snake bite victim...although you could probably rely on Albo to be at the funeral to pump flesh and to promise millions to fix the road to the cemetery!

Last edited by Sarcs; 1st Jul 2013 at 21:56. Reason: touché dearest Fantome
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Old 1st Jul 2013, 23:04
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Of course, one may, at any time frame a polite question to one of the McComic 'orrible little men (OLM) and quite reasonably expect a civilised, erudite response. They are, after all, hand picked, intensively trained specialists. We have, today from 'Willyleaks', the vision from the Gobbledocks latest daring spy mission on operations at Sleepy Hollow.....


Last edited by Kharon; 1st Jul 2013 at 23:05.
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Old 2nd Jul 2013, 00:22
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So if the news story can be believed, JMac said he had an obligation to report the landing.....BUT.... he had been drinking which is a violation of Part 99 because he would have been carrying out a Safety Sensitive Role! Am I wrong?

If he didn't report it, he abused his position and bullied the cabin crew because he was cranky!

Food for thought.
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Old 2nd Jul 2013, 00:27
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To digress (irony) . . . . reading again the good senators' laments, how can the conclusion not be drawn that the country's in the very worst of hands . . the worst of hands . You can say the solution is in the ballot box, but surely it is not as cut and dried as that.

And now Albanese is also Minister of Communications a much more demanding portfolio as well as Transport and Infrastructure.

So expect NO miniterial Interest , he was out of his depth before in the smaller fish bowl, now we surely will watch with amazement as the arrogance and hubris take over I am sure.

Last edited by T28D; 2nd Jul 2013 at 00:28.
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Old 2nd Jul 2013, 01:39
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Thumbs up Made me laugh!

Read T28D's post then saw this and I LOL!

@Albo fogged in!

Well at least he'd be thinking about aviation at the moment while he sits back in the chairman's lounge!

Last edited by Sarcs; 2nd Jul 2013 at 10:03. Reason: 004 guilty as charged! Victim of a bored existence..
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Old 2nd Jul 2013, 09:56
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Sarcs, dear Sarcs. what art thou doing? Following 'The Minister for bad teeth' on Twatter now? I would rather have my eyes gouged out and have my ocular cavities pi#*ed in, but then again each to their own my brother!
Perhaps Albo was twattering how many olives were in his Martini's in the Chairmanship Lounge while he was using a newly gifted QF IPad or something of that nature? Oink oink. Was he with Howes and Wirth?

As for being fogged in, was he in Mildura? Nah not likely, what influential powers can you buy off in Mildura? All these clowns have been living in a fog for decades. Pity he wasn't airborne and enroute to a foggy mountains ridge at 500 knots.....yes a living fog is where he resides, that's what happens when your ass points to the sky while you have your head buried up to the shoulders in taxpayer troughs. (Another oink for good measure).

Now I am off to find out who the f#ckwit is who damaged my aircrafts rudder this afternoon. I bet it was the Skull? I know he doesn't like me...bully!
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Old 2nd Jul 2013, 10:14
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CAsA to feature on 60 Minutes

60 Minutes is running a story this Sunday about CAsA and the R44 fuel tank debacle
That makes it a hat-trick - Australian Story, Four Corners and 60 Minutes! Well done Mr Skull, now the media makes it on to your 'ills of society list'?


I think the 60 Minutes signature sound is quite appropriate really; tick tick tick tick tick

Last edited by 004wercras; 2nd Jul 2013 at 11:39.
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Old 2nd Jul 2013, 17:59
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Ills of society


Anyway, no drug, not even alcohol, causes the fundamental ills of society. If we're looking for the source of our troubles, we shouldn't test people for drugs, we should test them for stupidity, ignorance, greed and love of power.

P. J. O'Rourke


Read more at Anyway, no drug, not even alcohol, causes the fundamental ills of society. If we're... - P. J. O'Rourke at BrainyQuote
Re the senates estimates bullying discussion.

What is bullying?
People who are bullied find that they are:
  • constantly criticised and subjected to destructive criticism (often euphemistically called constructive criticism, which is an oxymoron) - explanations and proof of achievement are ridiculed, overruled, dismissed or ignored
  • forever subject to nit-picking and trivial fault-finding (the triviality is the giveaway)
  • undermined, especially in front of others; false concerns are raised, or doubts are expressed over a person's performance or standard of work - however, the doubts lack substantive and quantifiable evidence, for they are only the bully's unreliable opinion and are for control, not performance enhancement
  • overruled, ignored, sidelined, marginalised, ostracised
  • isolated and excluded from what's happening (this makes people more vulnerable and easier to control and subjugate)
  • singled out and treated differently (for example everyone else can have long lunch breaks but if they are one minute late it's a disciplinary offence)
  • belittled, degraded, demeaned, ridiculed, patronised, subject to disparaging remarks
  • regularly the target of offensive language, personal remarks, or inappropriate bad language
  • the target of unwanted sexual behaviour
  • threatened, shouted at and humiliated, especially in front of others
  • taunted and teased where the intention is to embarrass and humiliate
  • set unrealistic goals and deadlines which are unachievable or which are changed without notice or reason or whenever they get near achieving them
  • denied information or knowledge necessary for undertaking work and achieving objectives
  • starved of resources, sometimes whilst others often receive more than they need
  • denied support by their manager and thus find themselves working in a management vacuum
  • either overloaded with work (this keeps people busy [with no time to tackle bullying] and makes it harder to achieve targets) or have all their work taken away (which is sometimes replaced with inappropriate menial jobs, eg photocopying, filing, making coffee)
  • have their responsibility increased but their authority removed
  • have their work plagiarised, stolen and copied - the bully then presents their target's work (eg to senior management) as their own
  • are given the silent treatment: the bully refuses to communicate and avoids eye contact (always an indicator of an abusive relationship); often instructions are received only via email, memos, or a succession of yellow stickies or post-it notes
  • subject to excessive monitoring, supervision, micro-management, recording, snooping etc
  • the subject of written complaints by other members of staff (most of whom have been coerced into fabricating allegations - the complaints are trivial, often bizarre ["He looked at me in a funny way"] and often bear striking similarity to each other, suggesting a common origin)
  • forced to work long hours, often without remuneration and under threat of dismissal
  • find requests for leave have unacceptable and unnecessary conditions attached, sometimes overturning previous approval. especially if the person has taken action to address bullying in the meantime
  • denied annual leave, sickness leave, or - especially - compassionate leave
  • when on leave, are harassed by calls at home or on holiday, often at unsocial hours
  • receive unpleasant or threatening calls or are harassed with intimidating memos, notes or emails with no verbal communication, immediately prior to weekends and holidays (eg 4pm Friday or Christmas Eve - often these are hand-delivered)
  • do not have a clear job description, or have one that is exceedingly long or vague; the bully often deliberately makes the person's role unclear
  • are invited to "informal" meetings which turn out to be disciplinary hearings
  • are denied representation at meetings, often under threat of further disciplinary action; sometimes the bully abuses their position of power to exclude any representative who is competent to deal with bullying
  • encouraged to feel guilty, and to believe they're always the one at fault
  • subjected to unwarranted and unjustified verbal or written warnings
  • facing unjustified disciplinary action on trivial or specious or false charges
  • facing dismissal on fabricated charges or flimsy excuses, often using a trivial incident from months or years previously
  • coerced into reluctant resignation, enforced redundancy, early or ill-health retirement
  • denial of the right to earn your livelihood including preventing you getting another job, usually with a bad or misleading reference
A favourite tactic of bullies which helps them evade detection is to undertake a "reorganisation" at regular intervals. This has several advantages:
  • anyone whose face doesn't fit can be organised out through downsizing (redundancy) or transfer
  • ditto anyone who challenges the reorganisation
  • ditto, their job can be "regraded" or "redefined" to the person's disadvantage
  • each reorganisation is a smokescreen for the bully's dysfunctional behaviour - everyone is so busy coping with the reorganisation (chaos) that the bully's behaviour goes unnoticed
  • the bully can always claim to be reorganising in the name of "efficiency" and therefore be perceived by those above as a strong manager



From Tim Fields website
Most people only realize they're being bullied when they read this page; what is bullying, how to recognise bullies and injury to health



Some more jobs on casa website. One for entry control. Wasn't that what the service centre and permissions application centre were doing?

Last edited by halfmanhalfbiscuit; 2nd Jul 2013 at 19:53. Reason: for the hell of it.
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Old 3rd Jul 2013, 00:09
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‘Pilot training and airline safety inquiry’ and recommendation 9

Biccy interesting post, I think it is safe to say we all have enough documented evidence to prove 'beyond all reason' that there is a toxic bully boy culture within the halls of Fort Fumble, ably led by their supreme leader

Perhaps Maurie Baston's article 'One way ticket, or return to sanity' sums up the knock on effect of such a toxic culture and points to a possible solution with very little cost impost (but much deck chair shuffling and abolition of the trough)!


Ok slight change of tack...

Blast from the past perhaps but in light of some recent incidents maybe it is time to act on recommendation 9 of the ‘Pilot training and airline safety inquiry’?
Recommendation 9
2.299 The committee recommends that the Civil Aviation Safety Authority (CASA), the Australian Transport Safety Bureau (ATSB) and Australian aviation operators review the final findings of France's Bureau of Investigation and Analysis into Air France 447, including consideration of how it may apply in the Australian context. Subject to those findings, the committee may seek the approval of the Senate to conduct a further hearing in relation to the matter.
R9 was one of only a handful of the 22 recommendations that the government didn’t whitewash with the ‘Great White Elephant Act’ and essentially agreed with in principle.

So why should the Senate revisit the AF447 investigation and final findings? Well perhaps the following vid may help to better explain (vid plucked from Paul Phelan’s short article ‘Cockpit automation – It needed to be said’). [YOUTUBE]

Many people may disagree with some of the views expressed by David Learmount but most would agree that we cannot ignore the essential safety implications of the AF447 air crash findings. Would a further hearing by the Senate be of value in the interests of the travelling public? My 2 bobs worth..after their efforts in the PelAir inquiry I have no doubt that it would be money well spent!

Last edited by Sarcs; 3rd Jul 2013 at 00:31.
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Old 3rd Jul 2013, 01:09
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Readers of Mr Baston’s article at the link in Sarc’s post might also like to read Justice Staunton’s Report into the Seaview tragedy, and in particular his honour’s comments on the “partnership policy” advocated by Mr Baston.
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Old 4th Jul 2013, 06:15
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PAIN poses an interesting question!

004 being a ‘victim of a bored god’ (like Taily)…came across a question posed to Cybercasa from ‘PAIN’… “Q/ Is CASA ALIU conducting a parallel investigation of the YMIA QF/VA low fuel marginal vis incident?”

The 2010 MOU reads:
4.1 Parallel investigations:

4.1.1 The ATSB may undertake ‘no-blame’ safety investigations in accordance with the TSI Act and CASA may separately undertake investigations with a view to possible safety-related action pursuant to its functions under Section 9 and/or Part IIIA of the Civil Aviation Act.
The ATSB website lists 'AO-2013-100' as a ‘Serious Incident’ and with the precedent set in the Norfolk ditching investigation..well surely FF should be running a parallel investigation? Hmm wonder if they’ve dispatched the Special Audit team yet?

Last edited by Sarcs; 4th Jul 2013 at 06:16.
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Old 4th Jul 2013, 09:27
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Devil parallel investigations

Hey Sarcs,

It would be a wonderful outcome if CASA could find the internal talent to conduct such an exercise - after all, I wonder when CASA last conducted an external review of how Virgin is regulated from the front bar of the Brekkie Creek and how Qantas is regulated by the sheltered workshop in Sydney?

Have they got any 'truth-seekers' left in CASA who might be prepared to critically examine their fellow regulators from a standardised and sustainable regulatory perspective? As far as I know, 'truth-seeking' is a fast track path to the Departure Lounge.

Forgive me for a slight lateral arabesque, but does anyone know what is happening with the CASA investigation/examination/review of Airservices that they promised in Estimates?


Question no.: 95

Program: n/a

Division/Agency: (CASA) Civil Aviation Safety Authority

Topic: Review of Airservices Australia

Proof Hansard Page/s: 52 (23/05/2012)

Senator XENOPHON: When will we know, do you think? I understand that you are undertaking a thorough review of Airservices Australia. What time frame are you looking at for an interim report or a final report?


Mr McCormick: We do not have a time line at this stage. When we do have one, I will give it to you as an answer on notice, if you like.

Answer: The broad review of Airservices Australia operations under Civil Aviation Safety Regulation Part 172 – Air Traffic Service Provider commenced in March 2012 and is planned to be completed by September 2012.



Last edited by Prince Niccolo M; 4th Jul 2013 at 09:50.
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Old 4th Jul 2013, 19:01
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How big are your Cohortees?

Prince Nick # 2235 –"Have they got any 'truth-seekers' left in CASA who might be prepared to critically examine their fellow regulators from a standardised and sustainable regulatory perspective? As far as I know, 'truth-seeking' is a fast track path to the Departure Lounge."
Sarcs "4.1.1 The ATSB may undertake ‘no-blame’ safety investigations in accordance with the TSI Act and CASA may separately undertake investigations with a view to possible safety-related action pursuant to its functions under Section 9 and/or Part IIIA of the Civil Aviation Act."
CR. - 4.2.1 "CASA is concerned that In some of our oversight activities we be merely scratching the surface. A cohort of CASA's inspectors complete the surveillance task to schedule, however they only issue few and somewhat benign findings." etc.
It begs some interesting little questions, does it not? PNM' s 'truth seekers' are an endangered, if not extinct species in Sleepy Hollow. Any short study (not a skim through) of paper work associated with recent CASA actions reveals almost 'on demand' tailor made results. The cavalier approach due process, total disregard for procedural fairness, an uncanny ability to make the 'facts and circumstances' fit any which way, including loose; are all topped off with a slightly sickly potion, the CASA version of veritas. Have a read through Dom James (Hansard) and see the punishments; they redefine 'Administrative Embuggerance' (AE); add to this the "Chambers Report" and the system is taken to new depths; by the very man who invented AE. Unadulterated cynicism in its purest form - the inventor of AE defines the ills of CASA society; gods spare me.

What has been done to Dom James and John Quadrio, standing alone should be a subject for the next Senate Inquiry, if the Senate is serious. The regulations are not the problem, the methods used to exploit the regulations, the disregard for due process and the blatant misuse of 'power' by the OLM ('orrible little men) is one of the true reasons underpinning the slow, but inevitable descent to third world status. At least in the third world, Baksheesh is a recognised, time honoured open faced way of doing business.

So what, you ask can a truth seeker do? SFA is the short answer. If you are a talented, qualified, respected individual, like Ben Cook, capable of discovering and enjoying "the truth" you can move on; and, put the short, interesting session with 'the authority' behind you. Otherwise, it's tow the party line; those who do so reluctantly, may be, in some measure forgiven; after prayers and confession. But for those who embrace the system, willing to indulge in slander and liable, happy to commit perjury, delight to cheat, there is no hope. Like vampires, they survive in darkness, garnering integrity, honour and kudos vicariously, through the life force of those they attack.

The blood sport of Administrative Embuggerance {AE} is clearly understood by those afflicted and those inflicting it: there is no 'open' corruption; just a smug, happy little group getting their jollies, knowing full protection is available....Aye well, that's a topic beyond the scope of a PPRuNe post. Lets just hope that a future Senate Inquiry has the cohortees to "drill down".
CR "An Inspector needs to have a level of investigative skill to .drill down to find the deficiencies that are genuinely serious and are often complex."
Oh, aint that the truth - Ayup, Wodger got that bit right at least, big cohortees and a large drill will fix the tired old wagon. Probably have nightmares now, cohorts of OLM with big drills and scientifically enlarged cohortees inflicting the ills of society on the unwashed, un-shriven masses.

For those who struggle with the arabesque manoeuvre The definition of cojones is a vulgar Spanish word that refers to a man's testicles, and is a slang term for having courage. A Cohort an ancient Roman military unit of 300-600 men, constituting one tenth of a legion. Ah, forget it......

Sarcs, hope your mates at PAIN are not holding their collective breath for a sensible, timely response. I've got a pint bet with P7 (TOM) say not...

Last edited by Kharon; 4th Jul 2013 at 19:44. Reason: Gone to ebay for bell, book and candle. Someone has to.
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Old 4th Jul 2013, 23:56
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'Embuggerance' robust word for governance?

PNM and "K" both top posts that highlight the clusterfk that is apparently our 'normalised deficiency' that we call aviation safety oversight in this country!

Kharon:
Sarcs, hope your mates at PAIN are not holding their collective breath for a sensible, timely response. I've got a pint bet with P7 (TOM) say not...
Hmm..nah won't take you up on that bet cause I don't expect it will be answered either...but you have to admit it is a good question!

Besides the only reason that we became aware that there was a 'Parallel Investigation' and report (CAIR 09/3) with the Norfolk ditching was because of the Senate inquiry....why would FF now be up front and transparent if they were conducting a PI with the YMIA incident?

Maybe an additional bullet point could be added to R14...
...Recommendation 14
7.15 The committee recommends that the ATSB-CASA Memorandum of
Understanding be re-drafted to remove any ambiguity in relation to information that should be shared between the agencies in relation to aviation accident investigations, to require CASA to:
• advise the ATSB of the initiation of any action, audit or review as a result of an accident which the ATSB is investigating.
• provide the ATSB with the relevant review report as soon as it is available.
  • That CASA make a public statement prior to involvement in 'Parallel Investigations' with the ATSB and give regular press updates on the progress of such investigations.
PNM:
Forgive me for a slight lateral arabesque, but does anyone know what is happening with the CASA investigation/examination/review of Airservices that they promised in Estimates?
Your forgiven PNM and good question, probably be treated the same as PAIN's question. However my guess is FF will wriggle out of that one by saying that ASA is essentially a commercial entity and is therefore subject to the same protections as other operators/AOC holders and all audit material/findings are commercially sensistive...

By the way Ben's firing up again:
Rudd in Jakarta

Ben Sandilands | Jul 05, 2013 8:36AM

While the PM is drawing attention to the importance of Indonesia to Australia, perhaps he should be briefed on how it now also shames Australia’s disgraced aviation safety bodies

Media reports this morning are full of stories about the growing importance of Indonesia as a result of statements made by Prime Minister Kevin Rudd in Jakarta, as though the penny has finally dropped that there are a quarter of a billion increasingly wealthy neighbors on our doorstep who we previously treated with ignorance, contempt or through the prism of stereotyping.

Among the more thoughtful insights were those televised by ABC News 24.
Here’s another insight for the PM, and for that matter, the deputy PM to take on board.

The public administration of air safety in Indonesia now shames our own key safety authorities, CASA the regulator and the ATSB the investigator, going on the quality of its recent investigation into the Lion Air ditching near Denpasar in April.

What a joke that reports makes of way in which CASA and the ATSB investigated and reported on the ditching of the Pel-Air Westwind jet near Norfolk Island in 2009.

Might the PM, and deputy PM, Anthony Albanese, reflect on the situation in which Australia ignores the spirit of ICAO Annex 13 on crash investigations because CASA and the ATSB covered up damning documentation of CASA’s performance in relation to Pel-Air, which is a massive indictment of the standards and integrity of both bodies, while the Indonesian investigation was direct, unambiguous and true to its obligations to put public safety first.

The antics of CASA and the ATSB ought not have been tolerated for a moment by the government in relation to this crash investigation.
Will the PM, and his deputy, the Minister for Communication, Infrastructure, Transport, Local Government and Regional Affairs, squeeze in the necessary moments of undivided attention to deal with this scandal.
It isn’t going to go away.

Ben...PNM...Kharon..Creamy..Sunny...004/Oleo etc..etc we can't all be wrong can we?

"IOS" 4 ever!

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