Qantas-October 28th
And we haven't been effcient (also sic) for years apparently.
Commas and full stops appear either to be optional or to be inserted where not required.
Commas and full stops appear either to be optional or to be inserted where not required.
short flights long nights
Who wrote this thing?
Nunc est bibendum
Those who attended the PWC facilitated day. It's come from both line pilots and management. There is a nice summation of it on Qrewroom and there is also a couple of nice responses.
From my perspective we can keep banging on about what's happened in the past or we can let it go and work towards the future. The CEO has his plans and there is very little that any of us can do to change them. Whilst I don't agree with everything on the parchment, I'd be interested as to what the wisdom of PPRUNE sees as the alternative. The CEO isn't going to resign or be sacked. The Chairman isn't going to resign or be sacked. The board is going to remain. So again, what does the PPRUNE world think the alternatives are to jumping into the deep end of the pool and swimming as hard as we can?
From my perspective we can keep banging on about what's happened in the past or we can let it go and work towards the future. The CEO has his plans and there is very little that any of us can do to change them. Whilst I don't agree with everything on the parchment, I'd be interested as to what the wisdom of PPRUNE sees as the alternative. The CEO isn't going to resign or be sacked. The Chairman isn't going to resign or be sacked. The board is going to remain. So again, what does the PPRUNE world think the alternatives are to jumping into the deep end of the pool and swimming as hard as we can?
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The only way anyone gets the authority to change the Strategy, Leadership and the Direction of any corporation is with majority shareholder control.
That GD et.al sought to obtain it by collaboration and they couldn’t, should make clear just how hard it is to achieve.
Contested shareholder control is sometimes achieved by determined shareholder activists and/or united employees working in conjunction with finance, but not aware of employees getting to control a publically listed company in Australia.
Last edited by Gingerbread; 12th Feb 2013 at 21:48. Reason: clarity
Those who attended the PWC facilitated day. It's come from both line pilots and management. There is a nice summation of it on Qrewroom and there is also a couple of nice responses.
From my perspective we can keep banging on about what's happened in the past or we can let it go and work towards the future. The CEO has his plans and there is very little that any of us can do to change them. Whilst I don't agree with everything on the parchment, I'd be interested as to what the wisdom of PPRuNe sees as the alternative. The CEO isn't going to resign or be sacked. The Chairman isn't going to resign or be sacked. The board is going to remain. So again, what does the PPRuNe world think the alternatives are to jumping into the deep end of the pool and swimming as hard as we can?
From my perspective we can keep banging on about what's happened in the past or we can let it go and work towards the future. The CEO has his plans and there is very little that any of us can do to change them. Whilst I don't agree with everything on the parchment, I'd be interested as to what the wisdom of PPRuNe sees as the alternative. The CEO isn't going to resign or be sacked. The Chairman isn't going to resign or be sacked. The board is going to remain. So again, what does the PPRuNe world think the alternatives are to jumping into the deep end of the pool and swimming as hard as we can?
I agree that there is little use banging on about the past and, yes, we should all be working towards achieving the best we can for the future. However, the fact remains that Joyce/Clifford have done what they have done and some things are irreversible. The memory I carry around from the grounding cannot be erased. I am disengaged. Click. Just like everyone I fly with (and I mean every single pilot I have flown with on the 767 that I can remember). I am not delusional enough to think that the chairman and CEO will do the honourable thing and commit harikiri but whilst they remain, trust and respect remains broken. So yes, we should jump into the deep end of the pool and swim as hard as we can but looking outside the scope of the pilot body for a moment, Qantas is damaged and the people who did it are still doing it and very soon it will be broken. It's pointless applying first aid while the patient is still being kicked.
Last edited by Conductor; 13th Feb 2013 at 00:49.
You mean a bandaid to a fractured skull!!!
Nunc est bibendum
...but whilst they remain, trust and respect remains broken.
So here we are. Would I like to have better leaders? Sure. Would I like to have things humming like they were 2000-2006? You bet. They're not though.
For mine, I'm not going to expend any more energy thinking/ feeling/ saying 'f@#k you Joyce' irrespective of whether they deserve it or not. I'm simply letting that go and moving on. I'm going to control the things I can and work hard at doing the things I can. That means I'll keep busting my gut to make Qantas successful not only because I'm a professional but because my future depends on it. If that means that sometimes I have to take a good dose of 'cabinet solidarity' and adhere/ do something that I don't particularly agree with (not talking abdicating command responsibilities/ safety here), then that's where I'm at. Yes that makes Joyce and Strambi and the rest of them hit their KPIs and look like geniuses and they'll claim credit for our hard work. The world has ever been thus.
Again I'll ask, what are our other options?
PS: I know from long experience how difficult it is to get 'tone' right in written form. I'm trying very hard to avoid coming across as argumentative and apologise if some comments seem that way. I'm not advocating a Neville Chamerlain 'peace in our time' approach either. It's a genuinely interesting discussion how we choose to respond to this PWC thing and what we do from here. My comments should be read in that context.
The damage that Clifford and Joyce have done is immense and that fact that Joyce signed the parchment does not mean that he is changing direction. He is continuing to dismantle Qantas (Frankfurt & Uluru are 2 examples) so there is no advantage to the pilot body "re-engaging" as the outcome will be the same, ie, No Career!
Our Fleet managers have lost their integrity by supporting the litany of lies coming from senior management and now PWC want the captains to lose their integrity by trying to persuade more junior pilots to re-engage. It's not going to happen as, in the words of a former AIPA President,
"Integrity is like Virginity - once it's lost, it's lost forever".
Our Fleet managers have lost their integrity by supporting the litany of lies coming from senior management and now PWC want the captains to lose their integrity by trying to persuade more junior pilots to re-engage. It's not going to happen as, in the words of a former AIPA President,
"Integrity is like Virginity - once it's lost, it's lost forever".
Last edited by Going Boeing; 13th Feb 2013 at 05:34.
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Qantas senior management have no integrity,
They don't get my trust,
And I will not be engaged,
Until Joyce and Clifford are gone.....
Only then can we start to build a new relationship as a group with he company.
The shutting down of this once great company won't be forgotten until the ones responsible pay the price and fall on their sword.
They don't get my trust,
And I will not be engaged,
Until Joyce and Clifford are gone.....
Only then can we start to build a new relationship as a group with he company.
The shutting down of this once great company won't be forgotten until the ones responsible pay the price and fall on their sword.
Last edited by Stalins ugly Brother; 13th Feb 2013 at 06:17.
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The problem is if you forget the past, you sanction what they have done. Everyone needs to work out where the future lies, but if you give an inch, this lot will push you to the next lowest level. That is the psychology of their game because they rely on having the upper hand and whilst they control the funds, they effectively do have control.
In the meantime, their game is being undermined by so called business partners who will do both lots over if it suits their purpose and they have much deeper pockets.
Sadly, there are no winners except for the business partners while the family jewels are being sold off.
In the meantime, their game is being undermined by so called business partners who will do both lots over if it suits their purpose and they have much deeper pockets.
Sadly, there are no winners except for the business partners while the family jewels are being sold off.
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You can build your friendship with Joyce and his accomplices as much as you like. You can build plans together (as long as it is what they want) and watch as the airline is destroyed. There is no future with the current people there.
I like the 3-pillar plan.
I like the 3-pillar plan.
Nunc est bibendum
The problem is if you forget the past, you sanction what they have done.
Blueloo, yes. An admin person said 'no'. Not first admin type to make a bad call, won't be the last. I'm not going to let his lack of understanding detract from everything that is still good about this airline and most of its people.
Thread Starter
With leadership there is integrity, where there is integrity, there is trust.
Joyce, Clifford and the actions of the board demonstrated clearly their failings in all of those attributes. They will never have an appreciation of those points and that is why qantas is where it's at....
I suppose one is grateful that today is one day closer to when Clifford and Joyce depart, as opposed to yesterday. Not that there will be too much left.
Joyce, Clifford and the actions of the board demonstrated clearly their failings in all of those attributes. They will never have an appreciation of those points and that is why qantas is where it's at....
I suppose one is grateful that today is one day closer to when Clifford and Joyce depart, as opposed to yesterday. Not that there will be too much left.
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until the ones responsible pay the price and fall on their sword.
There is no future with the current people there.
I thought at first that the scroll was a clever cartoon someone on Prune had developed but to my amazement it is the actual document! I like how QF management have conveniently applied half the blame to the pilots with the use of the term "industrial action" when AIPAs strategy was to not target the company financially. I think if management acknowledged that the airline shutdown was reckless and premeditated then the issue of trust would be a bit more sincere. I understand the sentiment expressed by Keg but to put a historical context to the situation even the West had to come to the conclusion that Stalin was a tyrant and could not be trusted no matter what he said.
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"I thought at first that the scroll was a clever cartoon someone on Prune had developed but to my amazement it is the actual document!"
Is that fair dinkum? Is that what it really is and how it is presented?
I thought someone was taking the piss too.
Is that fair dinkum? Is that what it really is and how it is presented?
I thought someone was taking the piss too.
Last edited by ampclamp; 15th Feb 2013 at 02:29.