Paul Holmes and Erebus
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The fallacy of the Appeal to Authority. Probably 90% of university "research" is rubbish. Anyway, my "mumbo jumbo" refers to the jargon; isn't "drift into failure" what normal people call complacency?
Sorry about your brother, Brian. Sad as it is, it saved you answering the question; the fallacy of the Appeal to Emotion.
The proof of the pudding is I'm still here, so clearly I do know something about safety, and you feel the need to tell me I don't know anything about anything, so clearly I am scratching a sore point.
Since we are saying our goodbyes ... you sound like a parrot.
Sorry about your brother, Brian. Sad as it is, it saved you answering the question; the fallacy of the Appeal to Emotion.
The proof of the pudding is I'm still here, so clearly I do know something about safety, and you feel the need to tell me I don't know anything about anything, so clearly I am scratching a sore point.
Since we are saying our goodbyes ... you sound like a parrot.
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The proof of the pudding is I'm still here, so clearly I do know something about safety
The fallacy of the Appeal to Authority
Although having spent my entire working life putting bread on the table via sitting in a cockpit I don't hold myself to be an expert by any means. But maybe, just maybe, a little more informed than an informed (and opinionated) airline passenger.
my "mumbo jumbo" refers to the jargon
you feel the need to tell me I don't know anything about anything
clearly I am scratching a sore point.
framer commented, "Your view (Ornis) would have been well recieved in 1970." He refers to you being stuck in a period where the blame culture was rampant. I'm afraid you seem to have travelling companions in ampan and prospector. I say seem.
framer, the blame culture is still alive and well. The worlds largest multi national boasts "worlds best practice" when it comes to safety. When an event takes place however, everyone runs for cover with pointed fingers. Usually at the guy with his hand on the tiller, despite a Royal Commission finding in one fatal accident that usual suspects were to hand - superficial auditing, lack of attention to major hazards, failure to learn from previous experience, failure to respond to clear warning signs, communication problems and a lack of training. In fact end of last year the local branch was slapped with four citations by the regulator for safety deficiencies. The buck rules. Some never learn.
you sound like a parrot
we are saying our goodbyes
Righto, we are probably getting a little off track here. Wouldn't want the mods to close it because it was not on subject. With that in mind I'l comment on 'safety culture' as it applies to Erebus.
I'm in an interesting spot because I squarely believe that Collins held responsibility for separating the aircraft from terrain and holds some responsibility for pressing on with achieving the task at the expense of the aircrafts safety (ie his primary responsibility), yet I imagine the 'safety culture' at Air NZ at the time was lacking due to poor leadership from management.
In my mind the whole thing is like a text book example of how all the holes line up and also of how the pilots are usually the very last layer of defence. As Captain of an airliner you are given extraordinary powers and authority while airborne and there is a reason for that. You are the last defence, your primary duty is the safe return of the aircraft to the ground and that must outweigh everything else.
Brian you say that if it was another crew on that day the outcome would have been the same. Although I share many of your views about aircraft safety I don't believe that for a second. I think with those exact circumstances, the same weather, the same lack of VHF reception, most Captains would have held onto the protection of their MSA (and remained within SOP's) while they contemplated their next move and formulated a plan of action, and in that time VHF reception would have come good and all would have become clear. I hold nothing against Collins, I just think that if another Captain was rostered for that flight the outcome would have been different.That is just my personal opinion, but I believe it to be true.
Just because I have said that Collins holds that responsibility does not mean I don't think others a free of responsibility.
I'm in an interesting spot because I squarely believe that Collins held responsibility for separating the aircraft from terrain and holds some responsibility for pressing on with achieving the task at the expense of the aircrafts safety (ie his primary responsibility), yet I imagine the 'safety culture' at Air NZ at the time was lacking due to poor leadership from management.
In my mind the whole thing is like a text book example of how all the holes line up and also of how the pilots are usually the very last layer of defence. As Captain of an airliner you are given extraordinary powers and authority while airborne and there is a reason for that. You are the last defence, your primary duty is the safe return of the aircraft to the ground and that must outweigh everything else.
Brian you say that if it was another crew on that day the outcome would have been the same. Although I share many of your views about aircraft safety I don't believe that for a second. I think with those exact circumstances, the same weather, the same lack of VHF reception, most Captains would have held onto the protection of their MSA (and remained within SOP's) while they contemplated their next move and formulated a plan of action, and in that time VHF reception would have come good and all would have become clear. I hold nothing against Collins, I just think that if another Captain was rostered for that flight the outcome would have been different.That is just my personal opinion, but I believe it to be true.
Just because I have said that Collins holds that responsibility does not mean I don't think others a free of responsibility.
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As Prospector has pointed out on numerous occasions, as did Sir Rochford Hughes, it was appalling that Air NZ allowed NZAPLA to turn the whole operation into a junket for senior captains. (Even the stand-by captains had not been down to the ice before.)
So f*cking what? When you're being paid three times the salary of the country's Prime Minister, there should, surely, be an expectation that the most basic principles of airmanship will be complied with. For example, you won't try to take off with the flaps in. Captain Collins did not make that basic mistake when getting the aircraft to cruising altitide, but he made numerous basic mistakes before he smashed the aircraft into that mountain.
Vette can crap on with his 'there but for the grace of God' nonsense, but I don't believe him. If Captain Alwyn Gordon Vette had been PIC of TE901, the passengers would have had an enjoyable tour of the Dry Valleys and would have returned alive.
So f*cking what? When you're being paid three times the salary of the country's Prime Minister, there should, surely, be an expectation that the most basic principles of airmanship will be complied with. For example, you won't try to take off with the flaps in. Captain Collins did not make that basic mistake when getting the aircraft to cruising altitide, but he made numerous basic mistakes before he smashed the aircraft into that mountain.
Vette can crap on with his 'there but for the grace of God' nonsense, but I don't believe him. If Captain Alwyn Gordon Vette had been PIC of TE901, the passengers would have had an enjoyable tour of the Dry Valleys and would have returned alive.
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Birds of a Feather Flock Together on PPRuNe
Ruffled Pigeon crowed: "I bring you A Very Important Message from the famous academic flier, Professor Penguin."
"I will promulgate his every word, I will promulgate his every word," squawked his alter ego, Pretty Polly Parrot, ad nauseum, "I will, I will, I will."
"Usually a lot of rot," suggested Culture Vulture, "I'm looking forward to it."
Hawk Eye swooped: "Certainly sticks in my craw, Penguin couldn't fly off his Ivy Tower."
Henny-penny added, "Not even if the sky was falling in ... ouch, Cocky-locky, keep it to yourself, will you!"
Mrs TEAL quacked: "We want Captain Ostrich exonerated, Kiwis find flying a very unnatural practice; if we hump the odd mountain we cannot be blamed."
Eagle Air-ed his views from upon high, "The Mods won't like this, can't you be Doves for a bit, wave a white Shag and all that?"
"Well, thank goodness that Great Tit, Wannabe, flew the coop," said Miss Thrush, "He was making me itch in funny places."
"Ah", said Wise Owl, avian I am getting bored with this, I feel like Woody Woodpecker on a thick wall."
"Time to put an end to the squabbling", said the Seagulls, as if that's ever likely to happen ...
Ruffled Pigeon crowed: "I bring you A Very Important Message from the famous academic flier, Professor Penguin."
"I will promulgate his every word, I will promulgate his every word," squawked his alter ego, Pretty Polly Parrot, ad nauseum, "I will, I will, I will."
"Usually a lot of rot," suggested Culture Vulture, "I'm looking forward to it."
Hawk Eye swooped: "Certainly sticks in my craw, Penguin couldn't fly off his Ivy Tower."
Henny-penny added, "Not even if the sky was falling in ... ouch, Cocky-locky, keep it to yourself, will you!"
Mrs TEAL quacked: "We want Captain Ostrich exonerated, Kiwis find flying a very unnatural practice; if we hump the odd mountain we cannot be blamed."
Eagle Air-ed his views from upon high, "The Mods won't like this, can't you be Doves for a bit, wave a white Shag and all that?"
"Well, thank goodness that Great Tit, Wannabe, flew the coop," said Miss Thrush, "He was making me itch in funny places."
"Ah", said Wise Owl, avian I am getting bored with this, I feel like Woody Woodpecker on a thick wall."
"Time to put an end to the squabbling", said the Seagulls, as if that's ever likely to happen ...
