Australia's most trusted profession survey 2011

[Jack Ranga]

Oh spare me please, what a crock of ****e

As I said, spare me the bull****, even if it were true they deserve every cent they earn.

And who does know teal? Another jealous little zealot in HR who can't stand the fact that someone is earning more than them?

Have a think about what these people have to deal with on a day to day basis. They are educated professionals saving multitudes of lives every day.

[Oakape]

Pilots used to be #1 a few years ago. Then it was #2 behind firefighters.

With all the crap wheeled out by management to destroy the profession over the last few years, I'm surprised we haven't slipped further.

[tail wheel]

A small commuter (say a Metro or similar) Captain with an average of 15 passengers aboard per sector, doing 4 sectors a day, 5 days a week, 48 weeks a year. That equals 13800 pax per year. If you can put a value on a human life multiply it by 13800 and you have a figure for how much an average pilot is responsible for each year. That of course is the smaller end of the turboprop/jet transport spectrum.

Gordon. I think you will find that is a fallacious argument which can also be applied to bus or train drivers, motor mechanics, aircraft engineers, air traffic controllers, medical professionals et al.

Rather than seeking the social status accredited to one who can add the adjective "professional" as a prefix to their vocational title, I suspect what pilots are actually seeking is remuneration which acknowledges and reflects:

• An adequate education in formative years;
• The significant cost and time of initial pilot training;
• An indenture over many years where increasing levels of skill are acquired and achieved;
• A life long technological learning process;
• The requisite skills and experience to determine the correct decision in continually changing and possibly stressful circumstances;

All in a continuously changing socio-economic labour market.

From my perspective, I would prefer financial recognition of my qualifications, skills and experience, rather than the right to use the adjective "professional" before my vocational title.

My 2 cents worth!

[gobbledock]

Pilots used to be #1 a few years ago. Then it was #2 behind firefighters.

Yep, before the introduction of LCC's !!!!

[teresa green]

Bollocks, pilots have always been considered professional. Airline pilots were born of the Second World War, airmen who survived. From those early days they were considered rightly or wrongly, men who were brave, competent, and intelligent. Your uniform marks you as a pilot, a person who has the brains and intelligence to understand the aircraft and the physics of flying, the ability to take a enormous piece of machinery that defies gravity to the other side of the world safely. You have public respect and you deserve it. We all know the struggle to achieve that LH seat, the endless study, the freckin manuals that clog up your study, and you would not have it any other way. Hold your heads high fella's you have followed a great tradition and some great pilots from the past. Be proud of your profession, it is a worthy one.

[Calldepartures]

Bulltish Artist of the week.. A firefighter making 9000 in a fortnight!! My brother is a Firey..I can definately assure you that a firefighter in the MFB in Melbourne earns $65052 p/a plus about 6000 p/a in extra's. No additional for working nights, weekends or public holidays. 42 hour week. Good job, but certainly not in step with private industry shift work. (shell refinery firefighter $95000 base for a 35 hour work week). Good job security though, something most pilots wish they had.

Calldepartures

[Normasars]

Calldepartures said:

Good job security though, something most pilots wish they had.

Not quite correct there my friend. Only QF LH pilots.

QF SH will continue on its merry way, and JQ, well they have the best job security in any airline anywhere.

[Teal]

Turn the thread into a discussion about firefighter pays if you want. The ones that really deserve the most respect are the volunteer firefighters - on call 24 hours a day all year round for no salary at all.

From the Weekly Times last year:

CFA Board briefing documents, dating back to 2008, indicate the CFA's career firefighters were then costing an average $130,000 each to employ.

But those costs have reached new highs under a lucrative wages deal the powerful United Firefighters Union signed with the CFA last month, which boosts career firefighters' wages, allowances and other benefits.
A copy of the UFU/CFA Australia Operational Staff Enterprise Agreement 2010, shows each paid firefighter gets:

• 65 days a year recreation leave, with a 17.5 per cent loading.
• 33 shifts of personal leave (sick, bereavement and carers) when they start the job; three more days at the end of the first year; and 18 more days each year (cumulative). This equals 54 shifts at the end of two years. Firefighters generally work four shifts a week.
• One hour's pay each time a firefighter is contacted out of hours.
• An availability allowance equal to 5.5 per cent of salary.
• The right to take a quarter of a shift off due to sickness without any deduction in personal leave (10-hour day shifts/12-hour night shifts). If absent for half a shift, only one quarter of a shift is deducted from personal leave. The CFA must bring in another firefighter for a minimum of four hours, paid at double time, to cover any part of an absent firefighter's shift.
• A change-of-residence allowance, including being reimbursed the stamp duty on buying a new home within four years.
• The reimbursement of child care expenses if called in unexpectedly
• Retirement superannuation through a defined benefit fund that delivers a lump sum worth more than eight times the final salary after 30 years service.
• Free gym membership, if the CFA fails to provide a gym at a firestation.
• An annual language allowance of $1021 a year if a language other than English is regularly used with the public.
• A spoilt meal allowance of $14.98, if called out.
• Being paid and supplied with a CFA vehicle to attend union meetings.
• A motor vehicle allowance of $1.10/km.
• About 25 other allowances covering rescue, fire investigation, training and first aid.

The huge cost of meeting the EBA and employing an extra 342 career firefighters within the next four years has already forced the CFA to cut funding to the state's 36,736 active and operational volunteers.

[priapism]

Can't speak for the firies , but as a paramedic, metro based I work an average 42 hour week consisting of 2 x10 hour day shifts then 2 x 14 hour nightshifts , 10 hours break between the 2 nights. In airline terms it is not a 4 on 4 off roster , more a 5 on 3 off because the 0700 (usually later) finish after the last nightshift is counted as a day off. My $69700 includes shift allowances and we get bugger all down time compared to the smokies. There is a built in factor of 2 hours overtime per rostered fortnight. Doesn't amount to much. Rural paramedics earn more because they remain on call after their normal duty hours working 8 days on and 6 days off, thus getting extra pay for the call outs. Their down time is generally much higher than metro's.

The job now requires a minimum Advanced Life Support qualification which means 3 years uni /on road and a hell of a lot of hoops to jump through clinically.

I make extra working voluntary overtime shifts , but I find it too fatiguing to do a lot. The nature of the work can do your head in at times. I love it though - it's just so poorly remunerated. Should have learned to fly instead of chucking biscuits for so long.

I pissed myself laughing at Joyce sprouting gloom and doom and suggesting an Ansett style end for QF - as he half billion dollar profit was forecast. ( in a bloody difficult year). Someone should point out to him that if Ansett had ever made a profit like that it would still be in existence. What a tosser!

Stick to your guns QF drivers- it's a hard road to get where you are now - don't let this little prick con you.

[Jack Ranga]

Turn the thread into a discussion about firefighter pays if you want. The ones that really deserve the most respect are the volunteer firefighters - on call 24 hours a day all year round for no salary at all.

Yeah, and another bull****, cop out from you 'friend'

Take your mean spirited garbage elsewhere. And tell your jealous little zealot friend that does the pays to spend a couple of shifts with these people. Live the disruption the shiftwork causes to family & social life, and then if they want to earn the 'millions' pony up, do the training and then whinge about how much these people earn.

You & your whinging 'mate' are an embarrassment to fair minded, hard working people.

[parabellum]

In Singapore one of the expat. FOs wanted to marry a local girl who had been to Uni. They had to ask permission and go for an interview at a government ministry to see if they were considered suitable!

"Ah", they said to the expat. FO, "You don't have a degree", "No", said the FO, "But I have an ATPL and I am a professional pilot".
"Ah so sorry, but pilot is not a profession, Lee Kwan Yoo has declared that pilot job is artisan, so sorry, you cannot marry".

Fortunately they split up anyway due a difference of opinion over finances, the lack of!

[Teal]

Not whinging at all Ranga - and hardly envious (except for the 9 weeks annual leave) when my own income is higher - just pointing out a few facts that you seem to find so hard to accept. Completely and utterly uninformed, a closed mind, and hostile....I feel sorry for you.

[Anthill]

A susinct reply Jack

• 65 days a year recreation leave, with a 17.5 per cent loading. 13 weeks rec leave? BS!
• 33 shifts of personal leave (sick, bereavement and carers) when they start the job; three more days at the end of the first year; and 18 more days each year (cumulative). This equals 54 shifts at the end of two years. Firefighters generally work four shifts a week.Sounds fair, a very hazardous job would require generous sick leave provisions.
• One hour's pay each time a firefighter is contacted out of hours. Fair enough. I don't like work calling me during my' down time' either. Home time is when we employees relax; calls from work are obtrusive.
• An availability allowance equal to 5.5 per cent of salary. That's fair, if staff are "available" then the employer should pay for limitations that are resultanly placed on an employees recreation time.
• The right to take a quarter of a shift off due to sickness without any deduction in personal leave (10-hour day shifts/12-hour night shifts). If absent for half a shift, only one quarter of a shift is deducted from personal leave. The CFA must bring in anotherfirefighter for a minimum of four hours, paid at double time, to cover any part of an absent firefighter's shift. So they should only see a doctory/dentist on theor days off?
• A change-of-residence allowance, including being reimbursed the stamp duty on buying a new home within four years.What's wrong /unusual about this (outside of aviation...}? If an employer asks staff to move then it is reasonable that the employer meets the cost associated with relocation. A mate works for BHP and they do it too.
• The reimbursement of child care expenses if called in unexpectedly Sounds fair, do you expect that the kids get left home alone?This sort of thing is done to suit the employer who NEEDS staff to come in on days off-without it, staff are unable to help out.
• Retirement superannuation through a defined benefit fund that delivers a lump sum worth more than eight times the final salary after 30 years service. I expect to retire on about 6-8 times my final salary too.
• Free gym membership, if the CFA fails to provide a gym at a firestation. Gyms are in fire stations so as the Fireys keep fit. This is an organisational requirement and not a union perk.
• An annual language allowance of $1021 a year if a language other than English is regularly used with the public.Many occupations get this.
• A spoilt meal allowance of $14.98, if called out. Sounds fair.
• Being paid and supplied with a CFA vehicle to attend union meetings.Delegates/management only.
• A motor vehicle allowance of $1.10/km.If an employer needs staff to use their own vehicles..fair
• About 25 other allowances covering rescue, fire investigation, training and first aid.And so they should...!

[Anthill]

However, speaking in regards our own profession, I often wonder about why pilots take off their bars and wings when paxing. I never do this, I am proud of what I do and feel that full uniform gives our profession a more visible presence. Still, to each his own..

Sad that the 'open mic' gaffe in the US occured; twits like that hardly put our profession in a positive light.

[Calldepartures]

I can guarantee that most of the conditions listed above do not apply to a Firey in the Metropolitan Fire Brigade. For example, sick leave is 144 hours per year. (that is 10 shifts {14 hour shifts}).

One overtime night shift is worth approximately 700 bucks. So from a salary of 72000, to earn 130000 would require about 83 overtime shifts per year. Say so that means an additional 1.5 shifts per week (21 hours). That means that you would have to work your normal 42 hour week plus 21. I would say 130,000 would be reasonable for someone working 63 hours per week day or night, weekends and public holidays.

Anyway, I can assure you that an MFB Firey does not get that much overtime. More like one shift a month if lucky

Calldepartures.

P.S I now have the full EBA of the MFB in my possession if anyone really cares to obtain more info.

P.S.S Please accept my apology for being drawn into the discussion on this non aviation topic, I just strongly believe that all emergency services have a very tough job and quite often are not appropriatley rewarded for their hard work. Not unlike a certain other occupation...

Cheers to all emerg service workers and volunteers alike

[Jamair]

Priapism - not too 'hard up' are you?

I am also an Intensive Care Paramedic, 20+ years in.

The base pay is nothing special. No-one ever gets into it for the coin. Overtime & penalties bump it up, but at the cost of family time or life-balance. I used to make a lot of $$ in rural / remote bases, but the constant on-call and subsequent fatigue was a killer. Would work a full day, then be On-Call overnight; routinely called-out and still have to front the next day - there wasn't anyone else to do it! The bucks were handy paying for my pilot training though!

Variety was great. One day doing helicopter duty, tasked out to the GBR for a stinger envenomation, next day working alone at a single officer station 100k from anywhere and managing an evolving MI...... sweeeet!

Hard yakka to get there - a 3 year degree, another 3-4 years of experience then an 18-month post-grad certificate. More again for aeromedical.

A lot of responsibility and accountability. A good operator needs great deal of technical knowledge, physical competence and instant recall of critical issues, an ability to prioritise and remain calm in a sometimes stressful environment, and a good understanding of people. In many ways comparable to aviation.

All-in-all, prefer flying. I am currently in a SPIFR ME Turbine gig. The challenge is every bit as great; the satisfaction just as intense. Don't get bled on as much either

[Calldepartures]

TEAL SAID:

"I assume your next EBA will incorporate all the newly won benefits that your CFA brethren now receive, and then two years later the favour will be returned."


EBA Negotiation 1.01 - Never Assume.
(Especially with a change in state government)

Cheers
Calldepartures

[LeadSled]

"Ah", they said to the expat. FO, "You don't have a degree", "No", said the FO, "But I have an ATPL and I am a professional pilot".
"Ah so sorry, but pilot is not a profession, Lee Kwan Yoo has declared that pilot job is artisan, so sorry, you cannot marry".

Folks,
Pretty much what an Australian court found, many years ago, but nevertheless the last time, that I can recall, when pilots as "professionals" was adjudicated.

It was the old Arbitration Court, back in the days of the "basic wage". Part of the issue was whether a pilot was a "professional" for the purposes of the then legislation.

The court's answer was a unanimous NO, and the correct remuneration for a pilot was decreed to be the basic wage for a "first class fitter", ( an artisan in the terms of old union official --- and later town mayor, Lee Kwan Yu) plus a margin for skills.

Tootle pip!!

[patienceboy]

Whether we are classified as professional/white collar/blue collar/whatever is purely an ego driven argument. It really doesn’t matter. Typically, highly skilled and specialised tradesmen earn far more than someone who scraped through 3 years of uni, got a job in the city and began calling themselves white collar professionals anyway – especially if the tradesman is willing to work away/shifts (sound familiar?) Tailwheel has listed some good reasons why we should be fairly compensated; I could probably add 100 more.

[Anthill]

Technocrat perhaps?