Jetstar to start recruiting
The only thing that would help stop the current slide in pay and conditions is if the present pilot group stood together and refused to let it happen. ie at its most extreme Protected Industrial Action, or by opening discussions with management to try and push the case for better conditions.
Now that will never happen. You would have 20% maybe 30% at best of the vocal minority such as those who post here time and time again who would stand up and make a stand and take action if necessary.
A larger proportion perhaps 50% of the pilot group, even though silently are not happy with the way things are heading, would stay silent and think well I don't want to rock the boat I'm on a better wicket than what the new guys are on, I should get a command in the next few years etc
The rest would be management/company (check/training) people who side with the company and don't care about what is happening as they are where they want and make good coin considering.
If a survey was held tomorrow to try and gain information on the concerns of the current pilots regarding these new pay and conditions I would guess not even half would even bother replying!
So what will be the end result?
-A lot of CAPITAL, bold and italic text, a few
and 
and 
and 
by a very small vocal minority of people who post on these forums,
-an absolute ignorance and zero care factor by the general public
-and lots of
from management.
So in the end....nothing
Now that will never happen. You would have 20% maybe 30% at best of the vocal minority such as those who post here time and time again who would stand up and make a stand and take action if necessary.
A larger proportion perhaps 50% of the pilot group, even though silently are not happy with the way things are heading, would stay silent and think well I don't want to rock the boat I'm on a better wicket than what the new guys are on, I should get a command in the next few years etc
The rest would be management/company (check/training) people who side with the company and don't care about what is happening as they are where they want and make good coin considering.
If a survey was held tomorrow to try and gain information on the concerns of the current pilots regarding these new pay and conditions I would guess not even half would even bother replying!
So what will be the end result?
-A lot of CAPITAL, bold and italic text, a few
and and and by a very small vocal minority of people who post on these forums, -an absolute ignorance and zero care factor by the general public
-and lots of
from management.So in the end....nothing
Last edited by Compylot; 8th May 2011 at 02:25.
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Compylot, Your three following quotes unfortunately sum up the current culture perfectly!
Now that will never happen. You would have 20% maybe 30% at best of the vocal minority such as those who post here time and time again who would stand up and make a stand and take action if necessary.
A larger proportion perhaps 50% of the pilot group, even though silently are not happy with the way things are heading, would stay silent and think well I don't want to rock the boat I'm on a better wicket than what the new guys are on, I should get a command in the next few years etc
The rest would be management/company (check/training) people who side with the company and don't care about what is happening as they are where they want and make good coin considering.
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So what will be the end result?
-A lot of CAPITAL, bold and italic text, a few and and and by a very small vocal minority of people who post on these forums,
-an absolute ignorance and zero care factor by the general public
-and lots of from management.
So in the end....nothing
-A lot of CAPITAL, bold and italic text, a few and and and by a very small vocal minority of people who post on these forums,
-an absolute ignorance and zero care factor by the general public
-and lots of from management.
So in the end....nothing
Will a line in the sand be drawn (finally) by the Jetstar pilot group?
Jetstar captains, trainers and checkers will need to have the gumption to demonstrate leadership in this area if there is to be any hope of stopping the march of a B scale.
PG
Nunc est bibendum
The only thing that would help stop the current slide in pay and conditions is if the present pilot group stood together and refused to let it happen. ie at its most extreme Protected Industrial Action, or by opening discussions with management to try and push the case for better conditions.
We are at a significant cross roads. PIA is just one of a multitude of strategies that can be considered as part of the wider campaign. In the mean time, explain the issues with those you know and love. Encourage them to share the issues with their circle of people. Share Ben Sandilands articles on social media outlets and spread the word about what the ultimate 'cost' of J*'s plans may be.
The only thing that would help stop the current slide in pay and conditions is if the present pilot group stood together and refused to let it happen.
Yep a big sacrifice possibly for these guys but a way to stop the rot.
The other way of making a point as someone suggested somewhere is for the Captains not not give any sectors to the cadets by deeming condtions unsuitable for the cadet to be PF, thus requiring regular sim trips for the cadets to remain current.
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Contract for new hires has their endorsement cost at up to $40k Based on Jetstar's history, this is how much it will cost, and repaid over max of three years.
Some basic maths here (I hope) Facilitation fee of $4000 (they say 10% so I have rounded up), leaves $36,000.
Alteon charge $28,000 including GST (which is a charge to any one off the street, so I would assume Jetstar's procurement department would have negotiated a better rate than this!)
Jetstar claim back the GST so the actual cost to Jetstar is $25,455
Difference is $36,000 less $25,455 which is $10,545
Based on crude calculations, Jetstar are making interest of 14% p.a. (more if you can do proper calcuations) as well as $4000 for placing people to be trained in an organisation already contracted to provide the service.
So this is another income stream for Jetstar.... Onya
Some basic maths here (I hope) Facilitation fee of $4000 (they say 10% so I have rounded up), leaves $36,000.
Alteon charge $28,000 including GST (which is a charge to any one off the street, so I would assume Jetstar's procurement department would have negotiated a better rate than this!)
Jetstar claim back the GST so the actual cost to Jetstar is $25,455
Difference is $36,000 less $25,455 which is $10,545
Based on crude calculations, Jetstar are making interest of 14% p.a. (more if you can do proper calcuations) as well as $4000 for placing people to be trained in an organisation already contracted to provide the service.
So this is another income stream for Jetstar.... Onya
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27/09
They won't do it because they know there would be umpteen others that would take their slots and if they didn't J* is perfectly within its rights to recruit from OS to fill thes positions. Remember 89?????? (lets not go there though)
In my opinion this is irriversable. It all started way back when airline pilots cast GA addrift and decided they were worth so much more. Now everyone wants to be an airline pilot because the position has traditionally held significant social status. The companies have been working for 22 years to bring them down and they have succeeded.
The question is how long will there be a good supply of suitable applicants for these low paying jobs? My guess it is infinate. They will just take the best of those who apply. They have nothing to lose, they pay for there training and if they fail they're booted out! The applicants will think they are the best of the best but really they are just the best of those who are desperate to fly a jet at any cost.
To all those parents out there who have sons and daughters looking at applying for this type of job, for their sake keep the cheque book closed and, talk some sense into them! Thats the only thing that will change it.
SN
They won't do it because they know there would be umpteen others that would take their slots and if they didn't J* is perfectly within its rights to recruit from OS to fill thes positions. Remember 89?????? (lets not go there though)
In my opinion this is irriversable. It all started way back when airline pilots cast GA addrift and decided they were worth so much more. Now everyone wants to be an airline pilot because the position has traditionally held significant social status. The companies have been working for 22 years to bring them down and they have succeeded.
The question is how long will there be a good supply of suitable applicants for these low paying jobs? My guess it is infinate. They will just take the best of those who apply. They have nothing to lose, they pay for there training and if they fail they're booted out! The applicants will think they are the best of the best but really they are just the best of those who are desperate to fly a jet at any cost.
To all those parents out there who have sons and daughters looking at applying for this type of job, for their sake keep the cheque book closed and, talk some sense into them! Thats the only thing that will change it.
SN
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Sorry, but I disagree with the idea that the current pilot group in J* are the only ones who can put a stop to this...
While we can continue with the go slow tactics, organize sick days, PIA etc - and I'm all the more keen to partake, we need the pilot group outside to be telling managment to go and screw themselves with that contract!
We did it when V Aus sent out the first contracts - and they had to come back with better offers, J* NZ bases have found the same the problem, hence the need to bring in cadets (because the cadets let them get away with it!!!) It happened wih the SIN base contracts, so J* had to put out a better offer!
Take a look at the trend and decide for yourselves - you won't lose the oportunity - I didn't, and the same can be said for everyone else that told them to stick it where the sun doesn't shine!! This is how J* opperate people, they start low and work their way up til they find people start accepting the T&C's - much like you buying/selling a house...
If you let them pay you peanuts - then YOU'RE the monkey
Stan
While we can continue with the go slow tactics, organize sick days, PIA etc - and I'm all the more keen to partake, we need the pilot group outside to be telling managment to go and screw themselves with that contract!
We did it when V Aus sent out the first contracts - and they had to come back with better offers, J* NZ bases have found the same the problem, hence the need to bring in cadets (because the cadets let them get away with it!!!) It happened wih the SIN base contracts, so J* had to put out a better offer!
Take a look at the trend and decide for yourselves - you won't lose the oportunity - I didn't, and the same can be said for everyone else that told them to stick it where the sun doesn't shine!! This is how J* opperate people, they start low and work their way up til they find people start accepting the T&C's - much like you buying/selling a house...
If you let them pay you peanuts - then YOU'RE the monkey
Stan
SN
Someone needs to take a stand, from what you say no one will, so I guess you're correct, pilot's will all be "rooned".
DJ744
From what I read here taxi drivers get more respect from their employers.
Someone needs to take a stand, from what you say no one will, so I guess you're correct, pilot's will all be "rooned".
DJ744
From what I read here taxi drivers get more respect from their employers.
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It shouldn't be left to individual Captains to manage this race to absolute minimum standards to fly a jet aircraft.
If a senate inquiry or a companies own recruitment standards fail to deliver this, perhaps a directive from the pilots own federation or association will suffice.
A directive to the effect, that due to the risks associated with low hour pilots operating high performance aircraft with other than training Captains. Such pilots shall only operate as PNF until such time as the individuals accrue 500hrs PIC.
That will take some incentive away from a cadet position where you can't build any ICUS time & still have to get the 500 hours PIC the traditional way.
On a positive side, it'll be the highest paid flight radio telephone operator position worldwide & as a bonus they'll even get to operate the gear & flap lever!
MC
If a senate inquiry or a companies own recruitment standards fail to deliver this, perhaps a directive from the pilots own federation or association will suffice.
A directive to the effect, that due to the risks associated with low hour pilots operating high performance aircraft with other than training Captains. Such pilots shall only operate as PNF until such time as the individuals accrue 500hrs PIC.
That will take some incentive away from a cadet position where you can't build any ICUS time & still have to get the 500 hours PIC the traditional way.
On a positive side, it'll be the highest paid flight radio telephone operator position worldwide & as a bonus they'll even get to operate the gear & flap lever!
MC
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LST, I don't know about BA and Lufthansa, but I'll say it again, CX cadets don't get to the RHS for 3-5 years, KA cadets do and it's bluddy hard work for the Captains, the most heard phrase on a KA flight deck with a cadet in the RHS is " priority left " Fact.
Sorry to burst your bubble and your great " there we were......" story, I am talking about daily events not a once in a career event with an very capable low hour pilot
Sorry to burst your bubble and your great " there we were......" story, I am talking about daily events not a once in a career event with an very capable low hour pilot
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“We anticipate up to 20,000 applications for this attractive new program which seeks to remove some of the traditional barriers to becoming an airline pilot, demonstrating the high demand to enter this highly skilled and sought-after profession,” Mr Buchanan said.
The conditions are fairly good. That is why, when we advertised for 80 cadet positions, we had 4,800 applications.
Less than one quarter of the anticipated applications. Perhaps perspective cadets are reading PPRuNe & thinking for themselves. Now the reality has been documented with the first gratuates having a contract offered, I wonder how the next round will go, especially for the full CPL+Advanced program, and the $200,000 debt attached? Keep chipping away, people, they can't hide the truth in the internet era.
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ecovictim, the more a key word or phrase use or a page linked to, the higher it moves up the search google search ranking. Google, therefore accurately reflects the volume of "chatter" and concern about the jetstar cadet issue.
The problem for jetstar, is that it will be very hard to suppress the pprune discussion, and thus push it down the ranking. The more it is discussed, and linked to, the higher the it will rise on google. Hopefully I will be able to post some more info about this in the near future.
The problem for jetstar, is that it will be very hard to suppress the pprune discussion, and thus push it down the ranking. The more it is discussed, and linked to, the higher the it will rise on google. Hopefully I will be able to post some more info about this in the near future.
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The public perception is that a pilot's job is an under worked, overpaid and exciting position to hold. ie attractive. So don't expect any support there.
What the airlines are aiming for is a pilot glut so they can keep T & C's low. They'll recruit and train as many as they can in the knowledge that those who fail or don't like the conditions will probably go to GA and get some experience. They can always get them back later by increasing the T & C's if they need to. It's that easy. At least we know the award is the bottom line for those recruited from GA anyway. It will probably solve some of GA's pilot problems at the same time hey! So from J*'s perspective "all is well".
SN
What the airlines are aiming for is a pilot glut so they can keep T & C's low. They'll recruit and train as many as they can in the knowledge that those who fail or don't like the conditions will probably go to GA and get some experience. They can always get them back later by increasing the T & C's if they need to. It's that easy. At least we know the award is the bottom line for those recruited from GA anyway. It will probably solve some of GA's pilot problems at the same time hey! So from J*'s perspective "all is well".
SN
Nunc est bibendum
Interesting Brekkyburritto. I just tried some auto suggest terms and PPRUNE didn't come up. Jetstar cadet pilot program was one of them.
So perhaps we need to be using that term a few times on these threads so that the PPRUNE threads head up the list.
The jetstar cadet pilot program is a con and not worth the money. Just say 'no'.
So perhaps we need to be using that term a few times on these threads so that the PPRUNE threads head up the list.
The jetstar cadet pilot program is a con and not worth the money. Just say 'no'.
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Hey B-Burrito, are you keeping a file on some of these management quotes? If so, I'd love to find Joyces beauty back in the early days of Jetstar when he opined something along the lines of Jstar pilots would be burnt out after 5 years or so. Any idea where to find that?
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Capt K, IIRC, that was reported as being at a DAME conference a while back, my understanding is that quote was never actually published, rather it was attributed to him by someone at the conference. And yes, I do have a Bruce Buchanan file, he has left a fairly hefty internet footprint. Plenty of material & interviews!
Keg, re the google search. If, hypothetically everyone clicked on the following link:
google search for jetstar cadet pprune, it will raise its profile in the rankings.
I will craft a few more and post them in a separate thread soon. All you need to do is set one of them as your homepage, or click through each link daily, and it lifts the ranking. Even better, email a list of links to friends. Remember, the more you search on a term, the higher its rankings become.
This post highlights some of these techniques:How to Google Bomb – Mastering Internet Marketing Strategies . They have had excellent results to move issues up.
Keg, re the google search. If, hypothetically everyone clicked on the following link:
google search for jetstar cadet pprune, it will raise its profile in the rankings.
I will craft a few more and post them in a separate thread soon. All you need to do is set one of them as your homepage, or click through each link daily, and it lifts the ranking. Even better, email a list of links to friends. Remember, the more you search on a term, the higher its rankings become.
This post highlights some of these techniques:How to Google Bomb – Mastering Internet Marketing Strategies . They have had excellent results to move issues up.