Merged: Senate Inquiry
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Krusty
They are graduates of the Advanced Course.
My view is if in the company's eyes they are good enough to sit in the RHS with a regular captain they are good enough to be paid the same as a FO once they obtain their ATPL thus transitioning from a JFO to FO under the OZ EBA.
Whilst I have made argument that salary can be connected to safety elsewhere I personally do not think that the NZ salary and conditons are good enough considering these guys have to start paying back $87k at the end of January plus any student loans they may have. That being said the first three months should be pretty stress free financially as during this time they are officially NZ BASED and their hotels and meals are covered by JQ and are paid overnight allowances whilst away from base.
The real financial pressure will come once they are checked to line - let's see how that affects their stress levels and their performance on the flight deck.
Anybody know whether Westaway has penned a press release for the occasion? Simon, if your reading, I have a suggestion for a headline "Jetstar offers new free service - the opportunity to backseat a flying lesson!"
More to Follow!!
D
They are graduates of the Advanced Course.
My view is if in the company's eyes they are good enough to sit in the RHS with a regular captain they are good enough to be paid the same as a FO once they obtain their ATPL thus transitioning from a JFO to FO under the OZ EBA.
Whilst I have made argument that salary can be connected to safety elsewhere I personally do not think that the NZ salary and conditons are good enough considering these guys have to start paying back $87k at the end of January plus any student loans they may have. That being said the first three months should be pretty stress free financially as during this time they are officially NZ BASED and their hotels and meals are covered by JQ and are paid overnight allowances whilst away from base.
The real financial pressure will come once they are checked to line - let's see how that affects their stress levels and their performance on the flight deck.
Anybody know whether Westaway has penned a press release for the occasion? Simon, if your reading, I have a suggestion for a headline "Jetstar offers new free service - the opportunity to backseat a flying lesson!"
More to Follow!!
D
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well... there is a circular argument if ever I saw one:
Junior F/O's are paid less because they don't have the experience required to hold an ATPL, but experience means nothing because they are a higher quality pilot.
So... the higher quality pilot is paid less?
BUT.... once the "higher quality" pilot gets some experience, he/she will be paid more, therefore joining the ranks of less qualified pilots. and then they will have the experience which we didn't want them to have in the first place.
Junior F/O's are paid less because they don't have the experience required to hold an ATPL, but experience means nothing because they are a higher quality pilot.
So... the higher quality pilot is paid less?
BUT.... once the "higher quality" pilot gets some experience, he/she will be paid more, therefore joining the ranks of less qualified pilots. and then they will have the experience which we didn't want them to have in the first place.
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Hehe apache I had been thinking the same thing for sometime.
The most roundabout upside down and illogical arguements of course must seem right to someone... Bonus for the person who thought up this mess...
The most roundabout upside down and illogical arguements of course must seem right to someone... Bonus for the person who thought up this mess...
Regardless of the operational argument for experienced pilots, there is a wider National imperative to enforcing mandatory pilot experience in RPT.
Historically the GA pathway to the airlines has provided the GA sector with a ready low-cost workforce keen to gain experience requirements of the big employers. Our small but nationally important GA sector needs only relatively small government sponsorship in remote and other critical areas due to it being the pathway to better pilot jobs. If this pathway is no longer viewed as such, governments will be forced to top up millions to keep remote and other smaller essential services running as more operators struggle to get low-paid pilots and salaries jump. The Euro-cadet model in Australia would incur cost shifting from the airline to the taxpayer, and governments will cop this economic deficit without supportive legislation to protect the fragile GA sector.
NZ has a law prohibiting pilot flying as RPT crew with <500hours. US congress has approved law of similar intent, but with higher hours. These countries have GA sectors of vital importance that will now be supported by the legislated RPT requirements. Australia, like the USA in the past, has had no such law, largely due to previous levels of industry self regulation. The USA is now leading the way in enforcing a strategy that keeps the balance right for governments, the economy and the travelling public. This is what the senate enquiry should take note of, and this alone is enough to enforce a minimum experience level for RPT in Australia.
Historically the GA pathway to the airlines has provided the GA sector with a ready low-cost workforce keen to gain experience requirements of the big employers. Our small but nationally important GA sector needs only relatively small government sponsorship in remote and other critical areas due to it being the pathway to better pilot jobs. If this pathway is no longer viewed as such, governments will be forced to top up millions to keep remote and other smaller essential services running as more operators struggle to get low-paid pilots and salaries jump. The Euro-cadet model in Australia would incur cost shifting from the airline to the taxpayer, and governments will cop this economic deficit without supportive legislation to protect the fragile GA sector.
NZ has a law prohibiting pilot flying as RPT crew with <500hours. US congress has approved law of similar intent, but with higher hours. These countries have GA sectors of vital importance that will now be supported by the legislated RPT requirements. Australia, like the USA in the past, has had no such law, largely due to previous levels of industry self regulation. The USA is now leading the way in enforcing a strategy that keeps the balance right for governments, the economy and the travelling public. This is what the senate enquiry should take note of, and this alone is enough to enforce a minimum experience level for RPT in Australia.
Ok. So does anyone know the latest on the inquiry. Creampuff kindly posted the link to day one, but since then NADA!
Have they postponed due to the recent natural disasters? Have the airlines bought them off! (just kidding
).
Or has it just peetered out?
Have they postponed due to the recent natural disasters? Have the airlines bought them off! (just kidding
).Or has it just peetered out?
A further hearing has been schehuled for 1245 to 1345 (AEDT) today. Should be broadcast here: Parliament of Australia: Live Broadcasting
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Its on now
HMS9V
Gives you a glimmer of hope..
Captain Geoff Klouth you have made us proud. A calm professional front.
The various Senators are getting a bit of an idea of what is going on in this industry.
HMS9V
Gives you a glimmer of hope..
Captain Geoff Klouth you have made us proud. A calm professional front.
The various Senators are getting a bit of an idea of what is going on in this industry.
Last edited by Mr. Hat; 15th Feb 2011 at 01:19.
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To quote the Senator at the end:
"Got me packing my daks now, I don't know if I want to get on a plane."
Well done Geoff and all other for having the professionalism and courage to represent all pilots in Australia well.
Parliament of Australia: Senate: Committees: Rural Affairs and Transport Committee: Pilot training and airline safety including consideration of the Transport Safety Investigation Amendment (Incident Reports) Bill 2010: Submissions Received
"Got me packing my daks now, I don't know if I want to get on a plane."
Well done Geoff and all other for having the professionalism and courage to represent all pilots in Australia well.
Parliament of Australia: Senate: Committees: Rural Affairs and Transport Committee: Pilot training and airline safety including consideration of the Transport Safety Investigation Amendment (Incident Reports) Bill 2010: Submissions Received
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caught the last 45 mins of that. well done to Geoff.
It is a pity that he could not answer the question on why REX found themselves so short of pilots a few years ago.
one aspect that has been missed, I think, is that airlines themselves admit that good airmanship and technical knowledge is a MUST.
I know that in most cases, airlines actually admit this in a small phrase in the front of either the QRH or SOP's, when they state that they are unable to anticipate and write procedures for ALL emergencies, therefore airmanship/knowledge/experience should be diligently used (or words to that effect).
With respect to the american(?) news report into pilot fatigue, I wonder if they would like a copy of the Wagga Wagga PRIME news piece about pilots and Flight attendants being Forced to stay in sub-standard accommodation as part of their MANDATED crew rest? the student accommodation is barely better than the crew room. At least in the crew room, you would have access to nearby shops for food and drink.
Maybe some background of how the "10 hours may be reduced to 9hours free of duty if it encompasses the hours of 2200-0600 local" rule came about? How iot was a trade off YEARS ago by airlines/pilots so that they COULD operate that first flight back in the morning without costing the companies exorbitant amounts of money.... BUT, it was supposed to be only used for ONE sector, as the pilot was having MINIMUM rest! This has now been abused by companies the country over to get that extra drop of blood from the stone.
Looks like the senators are finally asking some good questions, and they are starting to listen!
It is a pity that he could not answer the question on why REX found themselves so short of pilots a few years ago.
one aspect that has been missed, I think, is that airlines themselves admit that good airmanship and technical knowledge is a MUST.
I know that in most cases, airlines actually admit this in a small phrase in the front of either the QRH or SOP's, when they state that they are unable to anticipate and write procedures for ALL emergencies, therefore airmanship/knowledge/experience should be diligently used (or words to that effect).
With respect to the american(?) news report into pilot fatigue, I wonder if they would like a copy of the Wagga Wagga PRIME news piece about pilots and Flight attendants being Forced to stay in sub-standard accommodation as part of their MANDATED crew rest? the student accommodation is barely better than the crew room. At least in the crew room, you would have access to nearby shops for food and drink.
Maybe some background of how the "10 hours may be reduced to 9hours free of duty if it encompasses the hours of 2200-0600 local" rule came about? How iot was a trade off YEARS ago by airlines/pilots so that they COULD operate that first flight back in the morning without costing the companies exorbitant amounts of money.... BUT, it was supposed to be only used for ONE sector, as the pilot was having MINIMUM rest! This has now been abused by companies the country over to get that extra drop of blood from the stone.
Looks like the senators are finally asking some good questions, and they are starting to listen!
Just got through watching the hearing. Capt Klough did an excellent job with his submission.
A couple of points that were raised during the submission that if we have the opportunity needs further clarification.
Pilot fatigue:
There are regulations in place which govern flight and duty time limitations for pilots, however, most operators operate under exemptions to the published Flight and Duty time restrictions in CAO48. These exemptions are issued to airlines by CASA at the airlines request, are generally less restrictive and permit a company to roster a pilot to work and fly for an extended period of time than would otherwise be allowed. The exemptions to the flight and duty time restrictions fall into the same category as exemptions allowing airlines to operate onto narrower runways or operate aircraft with fewer flight attendants than would otherwise be allowed by the regulations. CASA are exempting airlines from certain published regulations in order to bring the airline a cost advantage even though there is a negative safety outcome.
REX:
Capt Klough seemed reluctant to say what I am sure he and most of us know. REX's pilot exodus and their inability to fill the empty positions was a direct result of the bad reputation they have as an employer. Even given their reputation and below market pay and conditions I still find it hard to believe that they could not find enough "suitable" pilots. Did one of the senators say the REX chief pilot searched the country looking for suitable pilots but could not find any??? What a load of rubbish!
A couple of points that were raised during the submission that if we have the opportunity needs further clarification.
Pilot fatigue:
There are regulations in place which govern flight and duty time limitations for pilots, however, most operators operate under exemptions to the published Flight and Duty time restrictions in CAO48. These exemptions are issued to airlines by CASA at the airlines request, are generally less restrictive and permit a company to roster a pilot to work and fly for an extended period of time than would otherwise be allowed. The exemptions to the flight and duty time restrictions fall into the same category as exemptions allowing airlines to operate onto narrower runways or operate aircraft with fewer flight attendants than would otherwise be allowed by the regulations. CASA are exempting airlines from certain published regulations in order to bring the airline a cost advantage even though there is a negative safety outcome.
REX:
Capt Klough seemed reluctant to say what I am sure he and most of us know. REX's pilot exodus and their inability to fill the empty positions was a direct result of the bad reputation they have as an employer. Even given their reputation and below market pay and conditions I still find it hard to believe that they could not find enough "suitable" pilots. Did one of the senators say the REX chief pilot searched the country looking for suitable pilots but could not find any??? What a load of rubbish!
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I have just watched the coverage of the Senate's enquiry.
Well Done GK your courage to step up is to be commended. Your opening Statement was, I have to say excellent, well thought out and well communicated.
Unfortunately when it came to answering the questions I felt you were not given an obvious opportunity in your responses to the questions posed to cover some of the more pertinent topics of your written submission such as outsourcing and funding of flying and making these relevant to safety although you may have been able to 'stitch' these into some of the other responses you gave - but you were on the spot and these links do not always manifest themselves at the right time.
I believe you were picked to give evidence out of the many people who made a submission because of your vast experience across a range of functions within the industry, not least an Airline Training Captain and ex ATSB investigator. This should have allowed you to leverage a credible argument from an industry perspective, IMHO you didn't quite achieve this but a good effort all the same.
Safe Flying!!
More to Follow
The Kelpie
ps. Does anybody know what the Agenda is for the Senate Hearing on the 25th February?
Well Done GK your courage to step up is to be commended. Your opening Statement was, I have to say excellent, well thought out and well communicated.
Unfortunately when it came to answering the questions I felt you were not given an obvious opportunity in your responses to the questions posed to cover some of the more pertinent topics of your written submission such as outsourcing and funding of flying and making these relevant to safety although you may have been able to 'stitch' these into some of the other responses you gave - but you were on the spot and these links do not always manifest themselves at the right time.
I believe you were picked to give evidence out of the many people who made a submission because of your vast experience across a range of functions within the industry, not least an Airline Training Captain and ex ATSB investigator. This should have allowed you to leverage a credible argument from an industry perspective, IMHO you didn't quite achieve this but a good effort all the same.
Safe Flying!!
More to Follow
The Kelpie
ps. Does anybody know what the Agenda is for the Senate Hearing on the 25th February?
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hopefully the 25th will see some hard questions being asked of the Orange Emperor and Lady Bruce. - there a re few good prompts in a few of the submissions - esp those that came with a confidential tag.
AT
AT
I thought he said that there were enough pilots with the 1500 hours but maybe Rex just weren't looking hard enough. I thought he also said ask Rex why they were leaving in the first place. Anyway hopefully it will finally put to rest the idea that Jetstar pilots aren't willing to step up to the plate in the struggle to stop the race to the bottom.
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And if the 1500 hour minimum is mandated, and Rex or Jetstar don't increase their salaries and terms and conditions, they still won't get the applicants they need to fill the right hand seats, or at least that is what they will say to the department of immigration.
Has anyone guessed yet where they will source the applicants if they "cannot find suitably qualified Australian residents?"
Has anyone guessed yet where they will source the applicants if they "cannot find suitably qualified Australian residents?"
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TLAW,
About 5 years ago as the pace of the resources boom in WA was really starting to accelerate, several publicly listed mining companies realised they were losing skilled employees (geologists, heavy machine operators, diesel mechanics, etc) to bigger operators and that such a continual labour drain would progressively impact their long term competitiveness. A google search by any interested poster will turn up the associated media.
After looking at the alternatives some of the miners advised the ASX they were implementing a deliberate one time short term profit reduction, to fund provisions to significantly increase wages and improve staff terms and conditions, to arrest the skilled worker losses and become more attractive employers in the labour market.
On receiving this news did the market punish the miners for deliberately reducing the profit that year?
No, the market was well aware of the labour market pressures and understood the need for management to fund T & C increases to retain, preserve and attract the most valuable resoure of all - skilled and dedicated labour. The market responded to these announcements positively and share prices either didn't change or increased, with the media support of labour and mining market analysts, who saw the move as sensible and providing for a sustainable future.
Aviation is a very capital intensive business, just like mining. I think the 'race to the bottom' in aviation experience, skills and associated T. & C.s results more from naval gazing airline managers, who are too close to their own problems and lack the insight to look at other similar industries (mining in this case) for inspired solutions to these problem.
Uninspired management always looks to the accountants (CFO's) for advice and the problem with accountants is they know the price of everything and the value of nothing. Which is why their answer is always to cut costs.
The Oracle
About 5 years ago as the pace of the resources boom in WA was really starting to accelerate, several publicly listed mining companies realised they were losing skilled employees (geologists, heavy machine operators, diesel mechanics, etc) to bigger operators and that such a continual labour drain would progressively impact their long term competitiveness. A google search by any interested poster will turn up the associated media.
After looking at the alternatives some of the miners advised the ASX they were implementing a deliberate one time short term profit reduction, to fund provisions to significantly increase wages and improve staff terms and conditions, to arrest the skilled worker losses and become more attractive employers in the labour market.
On receiving this news did the market punish the miners for deliberately reducing the profit that year?
No, the market was well aware of the labour market pressures and understood the need for management to fund T & C increases to retain, preserve and attract the most valuable resoure of all - skilled and dedicated labour. The market responded to these announcements positively and share prices either didn't change or increased, with the media support of labour and mining market analysts, who saw the move as sensible and providing for a sustainable future.
Aviation is a very capital intensive business, just like mining. I think the 'race to the bottom' in aviation experience, skills and associated T. & C.s results more from naval gazing airline managers, who are too close to their own problems and lack the insight to look at other similar industries (mining in this case) for inspired solutions to these problem.
Uninspired management always looks to the accountants (CFO's) for advice and the problem with accountants is they know the price of everything and the value of nothing. Which is why their answer is always to cut costs.
The Oracle