Merged: Senate Inquiry
Here's some more "Worlds Best Practice" that I submit we do not want here.
Perhaps a good example of the result of an ineffectual national regulator. Fortunately our dear CASA does not fit that category (just yet).
Fears grow over India's fake pilots - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation)
Perhaps a good example of the result of an ineffectual national regulator. Fortunately our dear CASA does not fit that category (just yet).
Fears grow over India's fake pilots - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation)
Fears grow over India's fake pilots
Posted Thu Mar 24, 2011 3:41pm AEDT
India's fake pilot scandal began unravelling when a female captain landed her packed airliner on the nose instead of the rear wheels as she touched down in the holiday hotspot of Goa.
Parminder Kaur Gulati, flying for the fastest-growing airline in the booming Indian sector, IndiGo, was investigated for the dangerous error in January and was found with falsified qualifications. She has since been fired and arrested.
The case set alarm bells ringing for passengers, anxious about the idea of a semi-trained fraud being responsible for their lives, and for airline bosses, who have been hiring crew at a furious pace in recent years.
It also cast a spotlight on a familiar problem in India, where corruption is widely seen as on the rise: most things, even qualifications for highly skilled jobs, can be bought at a price.
"It's as bad as doctors or surgeons who fake their certificates and put people's lives at risk," says Baijayant Panda, a member of parliament from the eastern state of Orissa.
"But it's not limited to aviation in India. In many fields, you have a lot of fakery going on," the politician, seen as part of a new breed of young Indian politicians, told a debate show on NDTV television last week.
Since the discovery of Gulati, at least five other pilots have been arrested working for low-cost flier SpiceJet, national flag carrier Air India and smaller regional airline MDLR.
India's directorate general of Civil Aviation (DGCA), which is responsible for pilot examinations and granting licences, has announced it will look into the credentials of 4,000 commercial airline pilots.
More arrests are expected.
Focus on flight school
Amid rising anxiety, attention has focused on a small school in the arid west of the country, the Rajasthan State Flying School, which has been running for the last 10 years.
Two of its alumni, working for SpiceJet, were arrested on Monday.
"A pilot needs to have completed a minimum 200 hours of flying to get a licence. Several of the pilots from there had only completed 50 to 60 hours," Umesh Mishra, from Rajasthan's anti-corruption bureau, told AFP.
Police built a case against the school and its graduates by checking the logbooks of the instructors responsible for certifying that trainees have completed supervised hours at the controls of a plane.
"We checked those records against the records kept by the air traffic control authorities in Rajasthan and found that some of these flights never took place," Mr Mishra said.
Police began looking into the school after being approached by someone who alleged that they had paid a million rupees to the chief instructor, who never granted a licence.
The DGCA, which the airlines blame for the licence debacle, has promised a probe into 40 schools around the country "to find out if there are any irregularities in their functioning".
"A special team will be constituted to complete the audit in three months and bring the truth out," DGCA chief EK Bharatbhushan promised on Tuesday.
Mr Panda, who holds flying licences in three countries - India, South Africa and the United States - believes the problem is systemic: suffocating red tape provides the opportunity for bribes.
"The DGCA has become a humongous bureaucracy and the red tape involved is phenomenal," he said. "Even genuine pilots, it takes them months and sometimes years to clear the process.
"This incentives people to go to touts who say 'why go through the genuine process? I'll fix it for you'."
It is a pattern repeated across the country, where bribes are frequently paid for driving licences, passports, ration cards for subsidised food, university degrees or even doctor's certificates.
Last year, the head of the Medical Council of India, which is responsible for certifying medical qualifications, was arrested for allegedly accepting a bribe of 20 million rupees to recognise a medical college.
Ketan Desai, along with two other doctors and a suspected tout, await trial.
TR Raghunandan, who set up IPaidABribe.com, an online forum for citizens to vent their frustration about corruption, says that bribes paid for education certificates are part of life in India.
The implication is widely understood by companies and recruitment agencies, who face a difficult task in verifying the qualifications and experience claimed by job candidates.
"Flying schools are meant to be monitored by the DGCA. What is the DGCA doing? They are themselves so corrupt," the retired civil servant told AFP.
Posted Thu Mar 24, 2011 3:41pm AEDT
India's fake pilot scandal began unravelling when a female captain landed her packed airliner on the nose instead of the rear wheels as she touched down in the holiday hotspot of Goa.
Parminder Kaur Gulati, flying for the fastest-growing airline in the booming Indian sector, IndiGo, was investigated for the dangerous error in January and was found with falsified qualifications. She has since been fired and arrested.
The case set alarm bells ringing for passengers, anxious about the idea of a semi-trained fraud being responsible for their lives, and for airline bosses, who have been hiring crew at a furious pace in recent years.
It also cast a spotlight on a familiar problem in India, where corruption is widely seen as on the rise: most things, even qualifications for highly skilled jobs, can be bought at a price.
"It's as bad as doctors or surgeons who fake their certificates and put people's lives at risk," says Baijayant Panda, a member of parliament from the eastern state of Orissa.
"But it's not limited to aviation in India. In many fields, you have a lot of fakery going on," the politician, seen as part of a new breed of young Indian politicians, told a debate show on NDTV television last week.
Since the discovery of Gulati, at least five other pilots have been arrested working for low-cost flier SpiceJet, national flag carrier Air India and smaller regional airline MDLR.
India's directorate general of Civil Aviation (DGCA), which is responsible for pilot examinations and granting licences, has announced it will look into the credentials of 4,000 commercial airline pilots.
More arrests are expected.
Focus on flight school
Amid rising anxiety, attention has focused on a small school in the arid west of the country, the Rajasthan State Flying School, which has been running for the last 10 years.
Two of its alumni, working for SpiceJet, were arrested on Monday.
"A pilot needs to have completed a minimum 200 hours of flying to get a licence. Several of the pilots from there had only completed 50 to 60 hours," Umesh Mishra, from Rajasthan's anti-corruption bureau, told AFP.
Police built a case against the school and its graduates by checking the logbooks of the instructors responsible for certifying that trainees have completed supervised hours at the controls of a plane.
"We checked those records against the records kept by the air traffic control authorities in Rajasthan and found that some of these flights never took place," Mr Mishra said.
Police began looking into the school after being approached by someone who alleged that they had paid a million rupees to the chief instructor, who never granted a licence.
The DGCA, which the airlines blame for the licence debacle, has promised a probe into 40 schools around the country "to find out if there are any irregularities in their functioning".
"A special team will be constituted to complete the audit in three months and bring the truth out," DGCA chief EK Bharatbhushan promised on Tuesday.
Mr Panda, who holds flying licences in three countries - India, South Africa and the United States - believes the problem is systemic: suffocating red tape provides the opportunity for bribes.
"The DGCA has become a humongous bureaucracy and the red tape involved is phenomenal," he said. "Even genuine pilots, it takes them months and sometimes years to clear the process.
"This incentives people to go to touts who say 'why go through the genuine process? I'll fix it for you'."
It is a pattern repeated across the country, where bribes are frequently paid for driving licences, passports, ration cards for subsidised food, university degrees or even doctor's certificates.
Last year, the head of the Medical Council of India, which is responsible for certifying medical qualifications, was arrested for allegedly accepting a bribe of 20 million rupees to recognise a medical college.
Ketan Desai, along with two other doctors and a suspected tout, await trial.
TR Raghunandan, who set up IPaidABribe.com, an online forum for citizens to vent their frustration about corruption, says that bribes paid for education certificates are part of life in India.
The implication is widely understood by companies and recruitment agencies, who face a difficult task in verifying the qualifications and experience claimed by job candidates.
"Flying schools are meant to be monitored by the DGCA. What is the DGCA doing? They are themselves so corrupt," the retired civil servant told AFP.
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An unfortunate evolution in todays industry. Experience requirements were there for a reason. But this is being replaced by attitudes such as one of our posters here. If you don't have the answers you ask those with experience for them. They kindly volunteer them.When you don't agree with them or don't like the answers or are embarrassed that you had to ask them in the first place then your replies become more aggressive and personal.
You are going to be operating in a high stress, demanding environment with no experience to fall back on. You will be tired and fatigued, one of you probably has domestic issues in the back of your mind and the other probably has the company on him/her about something. If your in the LHS it's probably both.Whether you are 22 or 62 there's no room for those who want to prove they are different by arguing or constantly questioning routine decisions. Thats not CRM. Remember the "C" . Courtesy. If at the end of the day you feel the captain (or senior crew member) has gone out of his way to accomodate your lack of experience. Say "thanks". That doesn't mean carry his bag or shine his shoes but it shows an evolution toward a mature operator who is aware of his limitations. If you think you have nothing to learn perhaps this isn't quite the industry for you. Use lots of 'C" and you'll usually get it back.
Everyones got an opinion in this industry. Take or leave it at your peril. Here's one. Take a humble pill. Close your mouth occasionally and listen, watch and learn. Take onboard the good bits and discard the other. The ability to do this is the first in a long road of decision making skills that will be expected of you. This industry is small and takes no prisoners. It can't afford to. Don't be the guy who thinks they know it all. It's a small but vocal and annoying club. Think those shiny new bars make you an expert. Think again. Think the faded old four bars mean you'll know everything when you wear them one day? I'd bet all the guys who wear them on this forum would agree they don't.
The difference between okey 20 years ago and now. 20 years ago I didn't know enough to be embarrassed by how little I knew and the extra workload that put on my colleagues. Now I am.
Comparing a globally respected military arm's selection process to that of a pay for training cadet scheme? Ex GA many moons ago and I'll be the first to admit thats just plain wrong. I wouldn't have insulted my ex mil colleagues by suggesting it 20 years ago and I won't now. Very best of luck to those entering elevated positions in our industry now. Work hard at it and the old salts will be buying you drinks dowroute. Make that look silly through lack of preparation and not taking your responsibilities seriously and.....
You are going to be operating in a high stress, demanding environment with no experience to fall back on. You will be tired and fatigued, one of you probably has domestic issues in the back of your mind and the other probably has the company on him/her about something. If your in the LHS it's probably both.Whether you are 22 or 62 there's no room for those who want to prove they are different by arguing or constantly questioning routine decisions. Thats not CRM. Remember the "C" . Courtesy. If at the end of the day you feel the captain (or senior crew member) has gone out of his way to accomodate your lack of experience. Say "thanks". That doesn't mean carry his bag or shine his shoes but it shows an evolution toward a mature operator who is aware of his limitations. If you think you have nothing to learn perhaps this isn't quite the industry for you. Use lots of 'C" and you'll usually get it back.
Everyones got an opinion in this industry. Take or leave it at your peril. Here's one. Take a humble pill. Close your mouth occasionally and listen, watch and learn. Take onboard the good bits and discard the other. The ability to do this is the first in a long road of decision making skills that will be expected of you. This industry is small and takes no prisoners. It can't afford to. Don't be the guy who thinks they know it all. It's a small but vocal and annoying club. Think those shiny new bars make you an expert. Think again. Think the faded old four bars mean you'll know everything when you wear them one day? I'd bet all the guys who wear them on this forum would agree they don't.
The difference between okey 20 years ago and now. 20 years ago I didn't know enough to be embarrassed by how little I knew and the extra workload that put on my colleagues. Now I am.
Comparing a globally respected military arm's selection process to that of a pay for training cadet scheme? Ex GA many moons ago and I'll be the first to admit thats just plain wrong. I wouldn't have insulted my ex mil colleagues by suggesting it 20 years ago and I won't now. Very best of luck to those entering elevated positions in our industry now. Work hard at it and the old salts will be buying you drinks dowroute. Make that look silly through lack of preparation and not taking your responsibilities seriously and.....
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RE the sim. Not defending, just setting the record straight.
The carboard cut-out/CRJ is used for the Multi Crew Cooperation Course. I am 99% sure the CRJ is now in place. The cardboard cut out has been used for the QL Traineeship as well. The QL link guys have a cut out of a Dash-8 (not just the speed tape) placed in there, the QF guys get a 767 I believe. But yes there is a massive tailwind put in to simulate a higher speed. I think the CRJ has now replaced all this.
There is a G1000 sim, used mostly for familiarisation and playing around with the G1000 it doesn't have visuals.
The Tru-flight is your normal everyday, GA sim and used for IF training.
The carboard cut-out/CRJ is used for the Multi Crew Cooperation Course. I am 99% sure the CRJ is now in place. The cardboard cut out has been used for the QL Traineeship as well. The QL link guys have a cut out of a Dash-8 (not just the speed tape) placed in there, the QF guys get a 767 I believe. But yes there is a massive tailwind put in to simulate a higher speed. I think the CRJ has now replaced all this.
There is a G1000 sim, used mostly for familiarisation and playing around with the G1000 it doesn't have visuals.
The Tru-flight is your normal everyday, GA sim and used for IF training.
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....so not the professional institution we are all lead to believe then!!
How are the Instructing Issues progressing?
Is the King Air Instrument Training being carried out by the instructor with 10 hours on type or has the CFI caved in again and agreed to go back to the coalface??
What did CASA find during their second audit in 6 months??
More to Follow
The Kelpie
How are the Instructing Issues progressing?
Is the King Air Instrument Training being carried out by the instructor with 10 hours on type or has the CFI caved in again and agreed to go back to the coalface??
What did CASA find during their second audit in 6 months??
More to Follow
The Kelpie
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200kt TW? So they just head in a straight line?
I've done some CIR renweals with QF cadets lately (the ones floating around the country with no clear idea of their future), trained at Oxford, and hold MECIR. Initial CIR done on 182, finished on King Air: Never seen Vmca, never done a RTO, never done full shut down and restart and admitted to only a handful of engine failures, mostly with a lot of assistance from the instructor.
Should CASA be taking a close look at Oxford?
I've done some CIR renweals with QF cadets lately (the ones floating around the country with no clear idea of their future), trained at Oxford, and hold MECIR. Initial CIR done on 182, finished on King Air: Never seen Vmca, never done a RTO, never done full shut down and restart and admitted to only a handful of engine failures, mostly with a lot of assistance from the instructor.
Should CASA be taking a close look at Oxford?
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Today approx 30 mins ago- 11AM at Moorabbin at the CASA building which Oxford bought out- and are now using for classes etc.. Bruce Buchanan and Anthony Petterford gave speeches.
All students/staff were told by Petterford to walk across the tarmac as a sign of solidarity and tower was notified so they didnt get worried about 300+ people engulfing the taxiways!
What an absolute wank! Some Students are reported to want no part so they left the place before everyone went over..
The parking situation there is a nightmare- Instructors are being told they will have to park at DFO- a few mins walk away because of no parking at Oxford nor the new CASA building they bought, and they are now looking at instituting parking charges for students- you gotta be kidding right?
Totally Professional. Who you trying to fool??
All students/staff were told by Petterford to walk across the tarmac as a sign of solidarity and tower was notified so they didnt get worried about 300+ people engulfing the taxiways!
What an absolute wank! Some Students are reported to want no part so they left the place before everyone went over..
The parking situation there is a nightmare- Instructors are being told they will have to park at DFO- a few mins walk away because of no parking at Oxford nor the new CASA building they bought, and they are now looking at instituting parking charges for students- you gotta be kidding right?
Totally Professional. Who you trying to fool??
Last edited by The Kelpie; 25th Mar 2011 at 01:10.
Probably organising the rebuttals this weekend from the corporate box at albert park.
You know with fuel prices, tsunamis, earthquakes and return on capital and all.
Tough times.
You know with fuel prices, tsunamis, earthquakes and return on capital and all.
Tough times.
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Whose Affiliated with the AFAP?
Interesting to see that in the ACTU submission(#50) that reference is made to endorsing affiliated unions of AIPA, VIPA, ALAEA and ASU. This must give this group a better listening voice and more industrial power when dealing with management. No doubt the TWU that also has members in the aviation industry is also affiliated with the ACTU, notwithstanding a sumission to the Senate Inquiry has not been made,
But, notable absentees from all these affiliated unions were the AFAP and FAAA. This was evident in the 1989 dispute where the AFAP was not supported by other unions.
But, notable absentees from all these affiliated unions were the AFAP and FAAA. This was evident in the 1989 dispute where the AFAP was not supported by other unions.
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Quote from Jokestar internal email -
"The Program’s establishment represents a significant fresh investment by Jetstar in the region’s aviation industry to further grow and develop the skills and capabilities of a highly-skilled workforce"
What investment?????
Are these clowns that deluded???
That's the point - there is no investment in the industry by these parasites. They are pushing all their training obligations onto the young, naive and vulnerable.
This whole scam is just another cheap, nasty and poorly executed attempt to shift costs onto the budding aviator.
"The Program’s establishment represents a significant fresh investment by Jetstar in the region’s aviation industry to further grow and develop the skills and capabilities of a highly-skilled workforce"
What investment?????
Are these clowns that deluded???
That's the point - there is no investment in the industry by these parasites. They are pushing all their training obligations onto the young, naive and vulnerable.
This whole scam is just another cheap, nasty and poorly executed attempt to shift costs onto the budding aviator.
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......to further grow and develop the skills and capabilities of a highly-skilled workforce.
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"The Program’s establishment represents a significant fresh investment by Jetstar in the ceo's retirement fund to further waste and ignore the skills and capabilities of a highly-skilled workforce"
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Translations
fresh investment by Jetstar in the region’s aviation industry to further grow and develop the skills and capabilities of a highly-skilled workforce
"dumb down the role, lower conditions with illegal industrial practices and wear a hull loss occasionally cause it's cheaper in the long run. We will use worlds best practice to influence the media and government"
I laughed loudly this morning when I read Steve Creedy's article in The Australian titled "Western Jets have never been safer". Last week it was the old classic "Pilot Shortage Looms!".
Seriously was I the only person to notice this?
We get it Steve: We need as many Cadets as possible and the Qantas pilots are just a bunch of over paid has-beens..
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I laughed loudly this morning when I read Steve Creedy's article in The Australian titled "Western Jets have never been safer". Last week it was the old classic "Pilot Shortage Looms!".
Seriously was I the only person to notice this?
Seriously was I the only person to notice this?
(An increasingly depressed) Popgun
PS. Go Ben Sandilands, The Kelpie and The Xeno.
PPS. I am told AIPA are trying to mount an offensive salvo against the Cadet 'B Scale'...here's hoping that is true...
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[QUOTE]Seriously was I the only person to notice this?/QUOTE]
dude....your asking this question at the wrong place...given the participants generally on this forum ...it probably went over their heads,just like any for m of logic or common sense....Mr Hat your too smart for your own good mate......
i.e. BANG HEAD HERE....
dude....your asking this question at the wrong place...given the participants generally on this forum ...it probably went over their heads,just like any for m of logic or common sense....Mr Hat your too smart for your own good mate......
i.e. BANG HEAD HERE....