Merged: Senate Inquiry
Nunc est bibendum
Yawn. A J* cadetship and a RAAF pilot traineeship are not the same thing. Standards, supervision, etc. A newly type qualified RAAF pilot is not the same things as a newly minted J* cadet F/O. Supervision, oversight, ongoing feedback and development, etc. The fact they both fly aeroplanes is about the only thing in common.
Not all cadets are unsafe. A cadet with an attitude that is demonstrated by the type of behaviour you have demonstrated on PPRUNE is unsafe because they think they know it all.
Having done a superior cadet course to the one being offered by OAA (but not as robust as the RAAF) I can tell you that a J* cadet F/O is simply not going to know when they're beyond their skill level.
Not all cadets are unsafe. A cadet with an attitude that is demonstrated by the type of behaviour you have demonstrated on PPRUNE is unsafe because they think they know it all.
Having done a superior cadet course to the one being offered by OAA (but not as robust as the RAAF) I can tell you that a J* cadet F/O is simply not going to know when they're beyond their skill level.
I believe he is a management troll trying to deflect anger to the cadets rather than management.
Keep up the good work folks.
Remember, these management trolls are here for a good time, not a long time. This is our industry, and they are guests. I believe they have worn out their welcome.
Keep up the good work folks.
Remember, these management trolls are here for a good time, not a long time. This is our industry, and they are guests. I believe they have worn out their welcome.
If the Raaf are training pilots at 200 hours that can fly big jets then it must be the quality of the training. This is the training I am getting so I want to know why
Go read rmcdonal post he basically sums up the difference between Jetstar and the RAAF.
Additional to being prepared to fail anyone anytime the RAAF also has a very very thorough screening process to begin with so they are starting out with the best they can get. I don't think that Jetstar are dealing with the same calibre of student.
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if the standard is so bad it makes you think why CASA hasn't done more? because they are incompetent? 
secondly why hasn't anyone questioned Rex's cadet program? aren't they RPT as well? talk about double-standards!!
secondly why hasn't anyone questioned Rex's cadet program? aren't they RPT as well? talk about double-standards!!
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Orange Star, high horses you say? Decades spent in the industry gaining thousands of hours to land a first jet job after spending tens of thousands of dollars on training. Experience gained, both aviation and life experiences. If we're on high horses then those of us that have worked for it deserve it. But it's not about deserving, it's about being fit for the job. As an FO you need command experience as well. If you need to ask why then there's a problem. Airforce chooses the cream of the crop and trains to scrutinizing standards. If you don't measure up you wash out. How do they succeed? The best training ever with a massive budget. Why doesn't this work in civvy street? Costs and less strict training and intake. Why are cadets more dangerous than a low hour military pilot? Because a military pilot flies piston, turbine then jet at various levels. Cadets we're talking pistons, simulators then a jet. Steps are being jumped. Again, what happens when the captain becomes incapacitated? 200hours and youre effectively the captain of a jet. Best of luck with that! Major hull loss, loss of life and an airline at an extreme worst case. There's a reason for a required number of hours to be gained for an ATPL for s very good reason. Experience! Yes we all wanted to get into jets from a young age, do the work, gain the required experience and enjoy the journey.
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I see it like this... If cadets have low levels of skill and experience, the weather is significantly deteroriated and they are attempting to deal with a failure then the chances of poor performance is many times higher to that of someone who has experience and a greater skill level. This is a serious safety concern.
What do you base this 'safety concern' on?
Is this not a multi-crew cockpit?
Are there no established failure management procedures?
Is the level of procedural adherence dependant on the First Officers piston experience?
Are the crew not instrument rated?
And 'experience and greater skill level' compared to what?
Are you really suggesting that an extra 1000 or so hours in a light piston would have any influence on on an F/O's ability to take direction and follow SOP's?
Dominic, I love good old mob mentality as much as the next person
but a few thousand hours in a sh!tbox round dial bugsmasher isn't worth a pinch of the proverbial on a high speed glass jet. And your increadibly well honed decision making skills that you developed in GA flying single pilot are almost better than nix on a highly procedural multicrew flight deck in which you are intitially a very junior partner.The only issue that I have with cadetships is one of adequate T & C's.
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I would like to know the failure statistics of cadet pilot courses.
On my RAAF pilots course, we were a test case course, minimal pilots at point cook were failed, cadets who were marginal at point cook and would have normally been scrubbed were sent on to Pearce 2FTS. On arrival at 2FTS, the CO said "you're either all very good, or the system has F****ED up". At the end of our course, the system had fu**ed up, all those who had been pushed through had failed, we were backed to the standard 50% fail rate.
Considering the RAAF take the best applicants for its courses and 50% still fail, you have to wonder about GA cadet courses where I would say the pass rate would have to be over 95%. The standard of a RAAF cadet pilot is far superior to a GA trained cadet.
GA training establishments specialising in cadet courses have minimal failure rates, virtually everyone gets through, and it isn't because the standard of trainee is higher. People get pushed through, test standards are lowered, multiple attempts at tests, were no test is flown to the required standard, but the examiner has seen over a few tests, that the student meets the standard.
One of the biggest problems with an airline cadet system is minimal hands on flying experience. Once arriving at the airline virtually all flying is on autopilot.
On an aircraft likke the Airbus automation is great but it also causes many problems. There a quite a few instances where many mode changes are required to salvage an approach that has gone slighlty wrong, whereas it is far simpler to just disengage the autopilot and handfly. Sadly, handflying skills are diminished by reliance on the autopilot. If an experienced RAAF pilot can have problems hand flying because of years of automation reliance, imagine the ability of the GA cadet who has limited handling experience.
On my RAAF pilots course, we were a test case course, minimal pilots at point cook were failed, cadets who were marginal at point cook and would have normally been scrubbed were sent on to Pearce 2FTS. On arrival at 2FTS, the CO said "you're either all very good, or the system has F****ED up". At the end of our course, the system had fu**ed up, all those who had been pushed through had failed, we were backed to the standard 50% fail rate.
Considering the RAAF take the best applicants for its courses and 50% still fail, you have to wonder about GA cadet courses where I would say the pass rate would have to be over 95%. The standard of a RAAF cadet pilot is far superior to a GA trained cadet.
GA training establishments specialising in cadet courses have minimal failure rates, virtually everyone gets through, and it isn't because the standard of trainee is higher. People get pushed through, test standards are lowered, multiple attempts at tests, were no test is flown to the required standard, but the examiner has seen over a few tests, that the student meets the standard.
One of the biggest problems with an airline cadet system is minimal hands on flying experience. Once arriving at the airline virtually all flying is on autopilot.
On an aircraft likke the Airbus automation is great but it also causes many problems. There a quite a few instances where many mode changes are required to salvage an approach that has gone slighlty wrong, whereas it is far simpler to just disengage the autopilot and handfly. Sadly, handflying skills are diminished by reliance on the autopilot. If an experienced RAAF pilot can have problems hand flying because of years of automation reliance, imagine the ability of the GA cadet who has limited handling experience.
It's about having two guys up the front with a high capacity for high workload when the situation arises.
All things being equal, experience gives you that extra capacity to deal with unforseen, or changes in dynamics, or simply operating the aircraft.
It will take years for cadets to gain the level of experience before they have a high capacity for workload before reaching the point of overload - the Captain will have to absorb that overload. When the Captain also reaches that point of overload - all bets are off, and luck becomes a major factor.
Life has a a way of presenting bad situations at a time - not of our choosing.
These are the risks that run in the intervening years from when a cadet learns to operate a machine - and over time learns from others, from every flight and gets enough experience to 'pilot'.
PS You can never compare RAAF Cadets to civilian cadets - completely 2 different mindsets and skills, and indoctrination.
All things being equal, experience gives you that extra capacity to deal with unforseen, or changes in dynamics, or simply operating the aircraft.
It will take years for cadets to gain the level of experience before they have a high capacity for workload before reaching the point of overload - the Captain will have to absorb that overload. When the Captain also reaches that point of overload - all bets are off, and luck becomes a major factor.
Life has a a way of presenting bad situations at a time - not of our choosing.
These are the risks that run in the intervening years from when a cadet learns to operate a machine - and over time learns from others, from every flight and gets enough experience to 'pilot'.
PS You can never compare RAAF Cadets to civilian cadets - completely 2 different mindsets and skills, and indoctrination.
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Oriana,
Thank you for the most succinct summary to the issues I raised which in my mind confirms that the actual risk profile has changed.
Since when does this industry rely on "luck" rather than proactive management of risk, this is nothing but complete BS where spin has reigned.
No wonder the Senators are worried.
Where are they regulators in all this and what assessment have they undertaken?
Where is all the media attention beyond some respectable few? There is scarcely any mention with almost exclusive focus on misrepresentation and scaremongering of mostly well managed events by tech crew.
I know this is not over yet BUT I fail to grasp how a self proclaimed safety conscious company can behave this way and get it away with it.
Thank you for the most succinct summary to the issues I raised which in my mind confirms that the actual risk profile has changed.
Since when does this industry rely on "luck" rather than proactive management of risk, this is nothing but complete BS where spin has reigned.
No wonder the Senators are worried.
Where are they regulators in all this and what assessment have they undertaken?
Where is all the media attention beyond some respectable few? There is scarcely any mention with almost exclusive focus on misrepresentation and scaremongering of mostly well managed events by tech crew.
I know this is not over yet BUT I fail to grasp how a self proclaimed safety conscious company can behave this way and get it away with it.
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It's about having two guys up the front with a high capacity for high workload when the situation arises.
All things being equal, experience gives you that extra capacity to deal with unforseen, or changes in dynamics, or simply operating the aircraft.
All things being equal, experience gives you that extra capacity to deal with unforseen, or changes in dynamics, or simply operating the aircraft.
Orangestar, no one is being critical of the cadets themselves. As others have tried to point out to you and as has been pointed out earlier in the thread before you joined it (and which you should read) the problem is with the used car salesmen pushing these over priced and over rated courses and the way various airlines are implementing them in a manner which makes a profit from the employee and loads them with the stress of a considerable financial debt that they carry with them in the flight deck. They are then used as an industrial tool to leverage a lower level of remuneration for all members of the flight deck in that company and in others. Look around you and see what your colleagues are earning. I can guarantee you it is not any where near what it was even 10 years ago and you will have a reduced earning capacity for the rest of your career. You will not be able to take your experience elsewhere for a better deal as even traditionally well paid airline jobs are disappearing under the weight of pay for your apprenticeship for the rest of your life type schemes. The unique seniority system that most airlines have also lock people in to their jobs preventing movement away from a company, even with these terms. Now that you have achieved your stated career aim by bypassing the formative stages of your flying career, where do you see your future?
Our workplace is not one where you can come day after day with a pre existing level of stress and distraction. It has been proven before with the loss of many lives. I personally have had low hour pilots/cadets brain malled (overloaded) to the point of disfunction when a combination of weather, ATC and aircraft manipulation have become too much. I have had a rather sober cadet admit that he was unable to land the aircraft in the conditions that we had just arrived in (he had a go as it was less than the limitations placed on him by the company, we had discussed it, he was confident in his ability to make the approach as he had been flying the aircraft for well over a year and I had no reason to take the approach from him) After I had taken over he was unable to assist with the missed approach and was only really back with me whilst completing the shutdown checks. Granted this can also happen with those of us with more experience than a cadet but the likelyhood is much reduced. By the way, this is not a statement about my ability. I am simply a line pilot with many years experience as a First Officer and a Captain (and shock horror, GA). As they say I have been around a bit and seen a few things. I have enjoyed my journey so far.
Have an open mind about this discussion, don't take it as a personal attack on you and the choices that you have made. No one is blaming you for making them. Have an understanding that this early in your career with one type rating under your belt and working in your first company you may not be able to make authoriative statements about the quality of the training you had to buy or the industrial landscape that you have been forced in to.
I wish you well for the remainder of your career.
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Some good replies here. What people also need to realise is that the reservations about cadets being thrust into the RHS comes from experienced pilots who were all in that low experience bracket once themselves.
This includes ex-RAAF pilots who, despite the superb training, probably felt out of their depth initially on conversion to an operational type. I was one of those.
You cannot buy experience and it cannot be trained into a pilot. It is invaluable to the safe operation of an aircraft. Experienced pilots are generally safer pilots than inexperienced ones.
The sooner people start listening to experienced pilots who have no vested interest apart from the safe operation of the aircraft they fly, the sooner we will get a sensible approach to the use of cadets.
This includes ex-RAAF pilots who, despite the superb training, probably felt out of their depth initially on conversion to an operational type. I was one of those.
You cannot buy experience and it cannot be trained into a pilot. It is invaluable to the safe operation of an aircraft. Experienced pilots are generally safer pilots than inexperienced ones.
The sooner people start listening to experienced pilots who have no vested interest apart from the safe operation of the aircraft they fly, the sooner we will get a sensible approach to the use of cadets.
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Some pretty strong and relevant quotes from the 4 Corners programme on QF32 due to be aired on Monday 28th March 2011.
Compare this to the comments of MR (i can't even bring myself to speak his name, never mind his correct title) at the Senate Inquiry:
Night and Day!!!!
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The Kelpie
From the passengers who looked on in horror as a human-sized hole appeared in one wing… "I'm thinking it's black debris that's coming out of the plane, if it hits the fuselage we're gone". Passenger Rosemary Hegarty
...to the cabin crew: "The rear of the engine was all smashed and damaged, and the wing was damaged and we could see we were losing fuel and then when my colleague said look, the kangaroo has gone, I knew that was an ... engine failure." Customer Service Manager Michael von Reth
... and the pilots who drew on every ounce of their experience and training to bring the plane under control.
"Matt Hicks is a very competent operator with 15 or so years in Qantas, having flown a 767, 747, A330 and A380 and he was working I would say close to his limit. And I wouldn't have liked to have seen someone with very low hours trying to do that job on that day." Second Officer Mark Johnson
The landing itself was nerve-wracking and fraught with difficulty. As pilot Matt Hicks recalls: "I actually had a swig of water cause I was getting a bit dry in the throat. (I) thought about my wife and kids for a while. Thought I better do a decent job here otherwise I'm not coming home."
...to the cabin crew: "The rear of the engine was all smashed and damaged, and the wing was damaged and we could see we were losing fuel and then when my colleague said look, the kangaroo has gone, I knew that was an ... engine failure." Customer Service Manager Michael von Reth
... and the pilots who drew on every ounce of their experience and training to bring the plane under control.
"Matt Hicks is a very competent operator with 15 or so years in Qantas, having flown a 767, 747, A330 and A380 and he was working I would say close to his limit. And I wouldn't have liked to have seen someone with very low hours trying to do that job on that day." Second Officer Mark Johnson
The landing itself was nerve-wracking and fraught with difficulty. As pilot Matt Hicks recalls: "I actually had a swig of water cause I was getting a bit dry in the throat. (I) thought about my wife and kids for a while. Thought I better do a decent job here otherwise I'm not coming home."
Senator MILNE—You are absolutely confident that a pilot with 300 hours actual flying time could recover the aircraft and maintain the safety of the passengers in the event that a pilot in that A320 was incapacitated?
Capt. Rindfleish—I am absolutely confident.
Capt. Rindfleish—I am absolutely confident.
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B Scale is here in Australia
Poptart,
Quote:
The Aussie B Scale has arrived at J*.
Can you please elucidate on this statement? What has actually happened?
Quote:
The Aussie B Scale has arrived at J*.
Can you please elucidate on this statement? What has actually happened?
I am pleased to announce that the first of our Cadet Pilots plan to commence flying within our airline’s Australian operations from April 2011.
I would like to welcome them and I look forward to you welcoming them as they move into our Australian business.
Jetstar has now become one of many airlines from around the globe that successfully recruit and train Pilots through regulatory-approved Cadet Pilot schemes.
This exciting development is parallel as we continue to create more Command opportunities within our Pilot Group with the arrival of new aircraft and new routes.
This initial group of four Cadets represents a significant milestone for Jetstar in establishing a new pipeline of high quality pilots to support our growth and excellent safety outcomes across our networks in Australia, New Zealand and pan Asia.
These Cadets have completed the Advanced Cadet Program through CTC Aviation Group plc.
To ensure these Cadets receive the most appropriate training and development opportunities alongside some of Jetstar’s most experienced Pilots, the Cadets will be engaged in Jetstar’s Australia business under an Australian contract of employment that meets Australia’s modern award terms and conditions, and all other statutory obligations including tax and superannuation.
Under Jetstar Group’s existing career opportunities for Pilots, Cadets will be employed on a local contract in the country where they are based.
Through a leave without pay scheme from our New Zealand business, the arrangement provides our Cadets with the flexibility to return to their original base, at their original position, in the future.
We launched the Cadet Pilot Program in June 2010 to deliver highly-skilled pilots specifically trained in Jetstar procedures.
This is a positive for our industry and a positive for industry flight training standards.
The Program’s establishment represents a significant fresh investment by Jetstar in the region’s aviation industry to further grow and develop the skills and capabilities of a highly-skilled workforce.
I haven't seen the contract but they have not been hired on to the Australian EBA.
Rumour has it that they have been given an Aussie contract that mirrors the 2010 Award...
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recruit and train Pilots through regulatory-approved Cadet Pilot schemes
My understanding is that the Unions have not approved this contract and that all these 4 cadets are now fully fledged members of AIPA. If so, they should be toeing the union line and encouraged not to sign as by default they should be deemed (given they have already carried out operations solely in Australia) to be on the EBA in the absence of any other legally enforceable instrument at the time they commenced line training.
Unions this is your cue to act.
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The Kelpie
ps trained at Oxford and not CTC as stated in the memo!!!!