Australia, New Zealand & the Pacific Airline and RPT Rumours & News in Australia, enZed and the Pacific

Merged: Senate Inquiry

Old 23rd Mar 2011, 09:55
  #641 (permalink)  
 
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Hey...TheOrangeStar

Both pilots go through a selection process and are trained on structured courses which are designed to produce a specific product to do a specific job.
Yep, they sure do. Only problem with your hypothesis though 'TOS'ser is that the selection processes between your image of what's needed to become an airline pilot and those required to become a RAAF pilot are entirely different.

Maybe you qualified through the cash-beats-ability selection process?

RAAF guys are selected through the brains-and-ability process, then weeded out if their ability doesn't meet very high standards throughout their training.

You quote deployment of low-hours pilots in the RAAF as follows:

Yes they are flying as co-pilots on A320s, B737 Wegetail, C-17, C-130, P3, EVEN THE PRIME MINISTER'S PLANE!!!!!
Yep, they sure do. And they do it well, too!

How many instances of reported severe hard landings have we heard about from those 'supposed' low hour RAAF pilots vs. the reported (and actual) hard landings and fcuked-up go-arounds from 'the orange stars'?

Chalk and cheese between the two?

I dont think so.
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Old 23rd Mar 2011, 09:57
  #642 (permalink)  
 
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Chalk and Cheese.

The Airforce cadet is assessed at every turn in order to see if they have the ability to perform to the standard required. If not, they are chopped.

In my opinion, a Jetstar cadet is assessed on their ability to meet the minimum standard in order to extract maximum dollars from their back pocket, and a minimum standard to meet the requirements of the regulator and company.

Chalk and Cheese.
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Old 23rd Mar 2011, 10:03
  #643 (permalink)  
 
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Correct me if I'm wrong Popgun, but aren't individual contacts a thing of the past. At least for large employee groups. I'm assuming this "B" Scale takes the form of a watered down EBA. Doesn't an EBA have to be negotiated? Doesn't the pilot group that is/will be affected by it have to sign off on it via a vote? By voting no, wouldn't Jetstar be prevented from flying these guys (NZ contracted) in OZ untill a resolution?

As far as I can see AIPA, the JPC, and the AFAP had them (mangement) by the [email protected]! Or are there nasty little deals going on behind the scenes?

Please, someone enlighten us!
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Old 23rd Mar 2011, 10:04
  #644 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by OrangeStar
Yes they are flying as co-pilots on A320s, B737 Wegetail, C-17, C-130, P3, EVEN THE PRIME MINISTER'S PLANE!!!!!

Would you all get off your high horses about the cadet program!!!
What do you fly in the military?
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Old 23rd Mar 2011, 10:21
  #645 (permalink)  
 
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This debate is showing what the real problems is and that is there is no consensus.

Can someone help us interested and largely supportive and ill informed public, understand what the issues are.

As one of the above, I am intensely interested in whether Jetstar are now manipulating the system to use low cost cadets (through no fault of the cadets) to lower by stealth the composite skills of those up the front.

I am intensely interested to know if the risk profile of the travelling public has changed without there being full disclosure of the events, in what appears to me to be a very deceptive manner, but I could be wrong yet again.

I always felt reassured by the Tech crew skills and were in awe of the demands placed on them, but now we seem to be saying sorry we dont need that level of skills any more.

The sole motivation on what I have seen to date is profit and a bonus driven culture and that just isn't good enough for this industry.

Lets not talk about 1 in 100 year events but stick to the events as they now present themselves.

Never before as an individual have I felt the need for more information.
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Old 23rd Mar 2011, 10:32
  #646 (permalink)  
 
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Rodchucker

Facts:
  • Cadets (in the J* scheme) are cheaper for the airline as they get a cut of the training/loan fees and/or can pay less
  • cadets have less experience than direct entry pilots
  • In most things in life the more you do something the better you are at it
  • Airmanship is needed in a Cessna 152 and a A380 just the same
  • You will almost certainly still get to the end of your life and not be killed in an accident caused by cadets
  • During your lifetime there almost certainly will be a fatal accident caused by cadets

Are you ok with us?
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Old 23rd Mar 2011, 10:45
  #647 (permalink)  
 
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None of you have gotten down off your high horses long enough to answer my question: What is your gripe with the cadet scheme???

Is it the fact that they are low hour pilots? - If so then you should be taking action on the air force. Guys graduate there with 300ish hours any they can fly widebodies!!! If you believe that the air force can do it because they are trained so well then what is Jetstar doing wrong regarding its training syllibus?


How many instances of reported severe hard landings have we heard about from those 'supposed' low hour RAAF pilots vs. the reported (and actual) hard landings and fcuked-up go-arounds from 'the orange stars'?
How bout this?

Media Release - Department of Defence

At least we could use the aircraft again...

SIYUA:

Only problem with your hypothesis though 'TOS'ser
I am pretty offended my being refered to as a tosser because I have a different oppinion to you. It doesnt matter what part of the word you cAPItalise that is still a pretty offensive insult mate. I thought that there were rules on PPRuNe?
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Old 23rd Mar 2011, 10:55
  #648 (permalink)  
 
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How many instances of reported severe hard landings have we heard about from those 'supposed' low hour RAAF pilots vs. the reported (and actual) hard landings and fcuked-up go-arounds from 'the orange stars'?
Don't start this RAAF are the best and brightest non sense.
707 in the drink off east coast for starters, might be a while ago, but it was a first and hasn't happened in civil aviation since.
As for heavy landings, do you really think the RAAF are going to advertise their internal problems. Not likely. Look at the quality of ATC and the action that receives as an example.

The RAAF chose a specific personality out of THE PEOPLE WHO APPLY.
I put it to you ex RAAF guys blowing your own trumpet, which you do pretty well, that at least 50% of pilots haven't applied for the RAAF. Out of that 50+% I suspect you might find some that are streets ahead in quality.
The fact is they look for a specific type, they train them with an almost unlimited budget and they end up with a good standard of RAAF pilot. When they come back to civil aviation, as they inevitably do, they are not the stand outs their minds tell them they are.
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Old 23rd Mar 2011, 11:01
  #649 (permalink)  
 
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The gripe is in two parts:
1: Cadets do not have any experience and are being placed in scenarios where they need experience to be effective. The guys on here who disapprove of cadets seem to be the ones who have to hold their hands from the left seat. As an FO you are supposed to be fully competent for the job, not still learning how to fly.
1a: The Air Force /Defence Force train pilots to a very different syllabus than Jetstar, or ANY flying school in Australia. They do not re-train pilots if they don't 'get it' instead they simply scrub the pilot. What this leads to is the cream of the crop getting past first BFTS then Pearce and then operational conversation. At any of these points the pilot maybe scrubbed.
The big difference here is that if they say you will pass in 50hrs, then you will pass in 50 hrs or they boot you. They don't provide extra training (past a re-peat) they don't accept a few extra $ to help pay for any additional training, they simply scrub you.
2: Cadet schemes bypass seniority. They provide seats to very junior pilots that could have gone to GA pilots with many thousands of hours. And the excuse given for the need for cadets is that 'there is a shortage of pilots'. Any pilot whose excuse for not going and getting a GA job is 'I didn't want to fly the dirty plane' is not going to have the right attitude to the job when they get into the shinny one. Its sort of like being given a free car, you don't appreciate it because you didn't earn it.

I thought that there were rules on PPRuNe?
Harden up princess, the real world isn't a nice place.

Last edited by rmcdonal; 23rd Mar 2011 at 11:09. Reason: gripe has an e in it
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Old 23rd Mar 2011, 11:07
  #650 (permalink)  
 
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What is your gripe with the cadet scheme???
The way Jetstar have structured it? Offshoring jobs, attempting to pay Australians outside of Australian work rules and conditions, and low hour pilots in the RHS of an RPT jet.

I didn't have a problem with individual cadets until I started reading your posts. Now I may have to reconsider. I don't have a problem with you accepting an opportunity that was available, but as for your attitude of defending the abhorrent process your employer is undertaking to devalue your chosen profession, all I can say is: you have a lot to learn, my friend.
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Old 23rd Mar 2011, 11:26
  #651 (permalink)  
 
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Old 23rd Mar 2011, 11:34
  #652 (permalink)  
Keg

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I had only read a couple of Orangestar's posts when I replied on a different thread. Having now looked a them all, I'm more convinced then ever that it's a wind up/ troll.
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Old 23rd Mar 2011, 11:47
  #653 (permalink)  
 
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I watched some RAAF Helicopter pilots practising at Point Gellibrand these last Two weeks. Some of it was hair raising.

Sufficient to say that these "low time pilots" are not the same as Jetstar cadets, and any Jetstar cadet that wishes to equate themselves with RAAF pilots is simply mad.
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Old 23rd Mar 2011, 11:48
  #654 (permalink)  
 
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Regardless of what u think of me no one can tell me why cadets are so dangerous. If the Raaf are training pilots at 200 hours that can fly big jets then it must be the quality of the training. This is the training I am getting so I want to know why....

I also know that Captains in airlines have more hours and experience than raaf aircraft captains. So in theory less supervior expeirence.

I ask again why are we so unsafe!!!
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Old 23rd Mar 2011, 11:50
  #655 (permalink)  
 
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I thought you were a C17 F/O with 360 hours?

Oh sorry, (insert sarcasm here)

Damn! Fed the troll. Goodnight.
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Old 23rd Mar 2011, 11:55
  #656 (permalink)  
Keg

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Yawn. A J* cadetship and a RAAF pilot traineeship are not the same thing. Standards, supervision, etc. A newly type qualified RAAF pilot is not the same things as a newly minted J* cadet F/O. Supervision, oversight, ongoing feedback and development, etc. The fact they both fly aeroplanes is about the only thing in common.

Not all cadets are unsafe. A cadet with an attitude that is demonstrated by the type of behaviour you have demonstrated on PPRuNe is unsafe because they think they know it all.

Having done a superior cadet course to the one being offered by OAA (but not as robust as the RAAF) I can tell you that a J* cadet F/O is simply not going to know when they're beyond their skill level.
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Old 23rd Mar 2011, 11:58
  #657 (permalink)  
 
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I hope you get a command soon. Real soon, quick, while you still know everything.
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Old 23rd Mar 2011, 12:02
  #658 (permalink)  
 
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I believe he is a management troll trying to deflect anger to the cadets rather than management.

Keep up the good work folks.

Remember, these management trolls are here for a good time, not a long time. This is our industry, and they are guests. I believe they have worn out their welcome.
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Old 23rd Mar 2011, 12:11
  #659 (permalink)  
 
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Divide and conquer... Encourage us to disrespect and hate each other. Very likely. Won't work though.
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Old 23rd Mar 2011, 12:25
  #660 (permalink)  
 
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If the Raaf are training pilots at 200 hours that can fly big jets then it must be the quality of the training. This is the training I am getting so I want to know why
'It is the fish that John West rejects'

Go read rmcdonal post he basically sums up the difference between Jetstar and the RAAF.

Additional to being prepared to fail anyone anytime the RAAF also has a very very thorough screening process to begin with so they are starting out with the best they can get. I don't think that Jetstar are dealing with the same calibre of student.
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