Australia, New Zealand & the Pacific Airline and RPT Rumours & News in Australia, enZed and the Pacific

Merged: Senate Inquiry

Old 3rd Mar 2011, 23:05
  #241 (permalink)  
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The 1,500 hour requirement that was introduced in the US was most probably introduced, not because of the Colgan Air tragedy in isolation but done because the US Senate could not comprehend as a result of the inquiry what a mess that safety regulation and the structure of the US aviation industry had become in the US. They most probably resorted to a safe political solution after all it would be them that had to answer should a similar event happen in the future that they could have, and had the opportunity to be seen in the eyes of the public to be doing something about.

I am in very broad agreement with what you are saying in places but what do you propose we do when all training programmes develop a multi crew / SOP bias aimed at airline work but there are not enough vacancies within the airlines?

These guys will have to go up north where they will undertake single pilot ops for which they will find the multi crew and SOP training about as useful as tits on a bull! This training model works in Europe because there is practically no GA.

By the time they achieve enough hours for direct entry they will be classified as contaminated by ga and will need retraining in any case to get rid of any bad habits.

Australian pilots are regarded by many to be amongst the best in the world - who knows what effect introducing cadets will have on this track record. For me if it ain't broke, why fix it?

These changes were sold to the Australian Airlines by Petteford from Oxford. Until Oxford bought GFS the only cadet scheme in Australia was run by Qantas...and it was a good one that was well structured, substantially funded by the airline. Do you think it is a co-incidence that the arrival of Oxford in Australia and the emergence of these cadet funded slavery schemes is a co-incidence??....and the Qantas Cadet programme ceased??

Ask the stressed out unemployed ex Oxford Cadets that were attracted by glossy brochures, posters all showing shiny white jets and smiling pictures of airline pilots on them - only to be dissapointed by the reality that there are not enough jobs for all the cadets that Oxford spits out. Many write on PPRuNe about being made bankrupt, or those that are on the verge of it with massive debt. These guys are not trained to seek decent salaries elsewhere.

This practice of selling flight training with pictures of shiny white jets has to stop. If it was any other industry the advertising standards would be pursuing actions of mis-selling as this ideal outcome only finds its way to a few and not everyone.

Another point.....The banks have strict guidelines as to what they consider is responsible lending for both unsecure and secured debt. Pressure groups campaign about responsible lending because they know, only too well the misery and potentially devastating consequences that overstretching yourself financially can have. Do you think that encouraging young people to get themselves into $200k of debt is a responsible thing to do given there is no job guarantee and that once the FEE HELP limit has been obtained there is no further funding available to retrain and develop a 'plan B' for the rest of your life? This should be regulated!!

At the very least these courses and the financing of them should come with a Product disclosure Statement' spelling out the risks to the Gen Y's who remain blissfully ignorant about what they are getting themselves into. Such documents are mandatory for any loan or financial products!!

......also Cadets should be familiar with the company 'mybudget'!!!

Unfortunately for the young men and women that these schemes are attracting have not yet learned the value of money and how it is hard earned and easily spent. Once this reality hits them the misery of financial stress will be obvious perhap to themselves and the many thousands of people that have entrusted their lives to them!! (although I hope not).

Last edited by The Kelpie; 4th Mar 2011 at 01:25.
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Old 4th Mar 2011, 00:31
  #242 (permalink)  
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A particularly relevent article given the recent revelation about the lady that died on a Jetstar flight from Singapore to Adelaide. Note the Bold statement from the lawyer!!

I wonder what Jetstar's policy is as the circumstances appear spookily similar.

Emirates airline sued over Carol Wilson's death
  • <LI class="byline first ">By Kate Schneider <LI class="source ">From:
  • March 04, 2011 12:03PM
  • Woman dies on board Emirates flight
  • Family claims that crew let her die
  • 'No type of life support was used to assist'
A DISTRAUGHT family has revealed shocking details of their mother's death on an Emirates flight, claiming the crew did nothing to save her.

Carol Wilson, 70, suffered a heart attack while flying from Dubai to her home in Houston, US, in April last year with her son Shawn Carriker. She had no existing medical problems.
Her family alleges that the flight crew failed to provide adequate medical assistance in the crucial moments following Ms Wilson's heart attack.
"Emirates airlines really let my mother die on that flight," daughter Tamala White told AOL Travel News.
"It was horrible."
Mrs White said that her mother had visited the restroom shortly before the plane's landing but failed to return. A flight attendant called Mr Carriker over to knock on the door, but there was no response.
"When they opened the door they found my mother slumped over and unconscious with her eyes rolled to the back of her head," Mrs White said.
"Her pants were pulled down. My brother had to dress my mother. She was gasping for air."
With the crew allegedly failing to act, Mr Carriker attempted to move his mother out of the bathroom but struggled as she was "dead weight".
Eventually a male flight attendant helped move her onto the floor in the middle of the aisle and handed Mr Carriker an oxygen mask, but allegedly did not assist in putting it on.
The family claims that the crew did not perform CPR, did not announce a medical emergency and that no defibrillators - which the airline states it has on its planes - were brought out.
Still unconscious, the crew moved Ms Wilson to a jump seat and strapped her in for landing.
The horror didn't end there for the family - after touching down the crew allegedly let all the other passenger off the plane first before letting paramedics on board.
"No type of means of life support was used to assist my mother. They just let her die," Mrs White said.
"By the time we landed and they let the people off the plane first and then they let paramedics on the plane it was too late."
Mrs White, who was waiting in the terminal to meet the flight, said she was receiving frantic calls from her brother saying "she's not breathing, what should I do?".
She said that Emirates staff wouldn't tell her what was going on, instead handing her a phone number. Hysterical, she approached police officers to help get information.
Meanwhile paramedics had performed CPR and Ms Wilson was taken to a local hospital, where she was pronounced dead.
Lawyer Kerry Guidry has filed a lawsuit on behalf of the family at US District Court in Texas, with a court date set for September 19.
"There's policies and procedures in place when a medical emergency arises and Emirates failed to follow those policies and procedures and that contributed to Carol's death," Mr Guidry said.
"She suffered cardiac arrest. The first seven to 10 minutes are critical in cardiac arrest, and they (Emirates) did nothing, and that's what we believe led to her death."
He said that all air passengers should be concerned about this case.
"We put our lives in (the crew's) hands when we're in planes and they're supposed to be professional and know what to do," Guidry says.
Mrs White said that the airline has not contacted the family to offer remorse or sympathy.
Emirates denies the allegations and says that the investigation into the incident is ongoing.

Last edited by The Kelpie; 4th Mar 2011 at 01:27.
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Old 4th Mar 2011, 01:33
  #243 (permalink)  
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I only managed to have a quick listen to the senate enquiry last week, it was said that Qantas pilots (perhaps Qantas group I can't remember) spend 16 hours a year in the sim for taining, how many hours do JetStar/ Qantas Link/ JetConnect pilots have in the sim each year?
This is a honest question with no put down comments coming from me.
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Old 4th Mar 2011, 01:49
  #244 (permalink)  
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Excellent question offchocks, but also don't forget to ask/consider if pilots are given free access to simulator to practice whenever they want for their own proficiency ?

You will find that some pilots have unlimited access and others have no access

An extra few hours on your own whenever you want to work on your weaknesses without the stress off being examined will make a difference I think
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Old 4th Mar 2011, 02:01
  #245 (permalink)  
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A Good Point John. perhaps this is something that the Senate will consider as part of the wider issues of the inquiry. It may cost the companies a bit more for extra sims but as AJ said safety will never be compromised for financial gain!!

The old addage "practice makes perfect"
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Old 4th Mar 2011, 02:07
  #246 (permalink)  
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John, you can take this an put it in the anecdotal evidence file. A while back I caught up with a QF A330 SCC, and he related to me a story about 2 J* Cruise FO's who he had checked the week before. They were both new on type & with low jet experience (no criticism intended). The session didn't go well, in the debrief the SCC told them they would need to repeat the session. One, became quite distressed at hearing this. The SCC explained to him that with study & practice they would make it through. However, the CFO then explained that the repeat would have to be paid for out of their own pockets at the full rate, not J*.
Perhaps someone from j* could confirm or deny that repeats are at the pilots own expense.
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Old 4th Mar 2011, 02:27
  #247 (permalink)  
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I remember that story from 2-3 years ago, if I have it right the problem was the guys were new to the company doing the endorsement on the aircraft at their expence. Petty tough financially when you have just come out of GA.
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Old 4th Mar 2011, 02:35
  #248 (permalink)  
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John, you're being simplistic. "a few hours" would cost thousands of dollars. Real SIMs aren't Link Trainers. They cost an arm and a leg to run. You don't just hop in, turn on the key and go for a drive. A standards line has to be drawn in the sand somewhere. If a pilot regularly needs "hours" extra SIM time to make the grade or not get overstressed then maybe there is a talent/skill problem.

Good job for a checkie on his days off, I suppose. Run a tutoring class in the SIM!

The problem with SIM time, as I see it, is that more and more is being squeezed into the same time. That will eventually lead to ineffective SIM training (or time only for checking?).

You will find that some pilots have unlimited access and others have no access
Which company?
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Old 4th Mar 2011, 04:26
  #249 (permalink)  
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QF allows pilots to book a sim session for practice. No motion though.
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Old 4th Mar 2011, 09:14
  #250 (permalink)  
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Remember this? Pmsl

Jetstar backs Senate safety inquiry into pilot training | The Australian

Steve Creedy From: The Australian October 15, 2010 12:00AM

JETSTAR chief Bruce Buchanan welcomes a Senate inquiry into pilot training and incident reporting as a chance to get facts on the table.

Mr Buchanan said this week that the Qantas Group would be putting a submission to the inquiry that would cover Qantas, Jetstar and QantasLink.

It would also be happy to send representatives to the inquiry if required.

"It's good to get the facts out," Mr Buchanan said. "What we need to separate here is what's the union political agenda and what's the real issues on the table. And there are real issues and it's good to get them out on the table and debate and discuss them."

The Senate committee inquiry was championed by independent senator Nick Xenophon and will look at several issues hotly debated by pilots.

These include the consequences for safety from reductions in pilot flight hour requirements, as well as whether Australia should adopt recent US requirements that a pilot operating regular public transport (RPT) services has at least 1500 flight hours.

It will also look at how regulators are dealing with advancing technology, pilot recruitment, and whether pay-for-training schemes affect safety and incident reporting in Australia.

Mr Buchanan said some of the issues reported during the debate on training had lacked substance and were misleading.

He had no problem with changes if something was not right, but the debate so far had not pointed to "anything of substance that we can see at the moment".

He found that many of the matters being wound into the debate, such as a 2007 Jetstar incident and commentary about pilots reporting directly to the Australian Transport Safety Bureau, were bizarre. "That's what got us into hot water -- we copied word-for-word what the pilots reported to us and gave it to the ATSB," Mr Buchanan said.

"It was only internal checking that actually registered an anomaly. The concept of a pilot having free access to the ATSB was what occurred in this instance."

Mr Buchanan rejected inferences that it was somehow in the interest of airlines to bypass safety. He said the Qantas Group had always been a passionate believer that safety was the first priority.

Unions also have been expressing fears that Jetstar is using its pan-Asian network to slash wages and conditions.

Mr Buchanan called for debate about the broader prospects for Australian aviation and what that meant in terms of a strong local base.

"We're in a business where we've got declining market share in international traffic and declining relevancy," he said. "That should be the bigger concern for the unions and the employees.

"We as a nation, if we're not careful, will cease to be competitive with the rest of the world."

He said competitiveness was not about safety, which was one of the Qantas Group's competitive strengths. "Competitiveness is about how we band together and create a stronger, viable business . . . and also the flow-on benefits to the rest of the tourism industry," he said.
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Old 4th Mar 2011, 09:54
  #251 (permalink)  
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Steve Creedy is renowned for regurgitating airline management spin - he's never done any research to provide "balance" to any of his articles.

If the Qantas pilots end up having to take Protected Industrial Action, he will write it as a pay dispute (at management instructions) rather than a dispute over saving our jobs.
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Old 4th Mar 2011, 10:09
  #252 (permalink)  
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The Kelpie

I admire your passionate interest in all of this Kelpie, you surely do have your finger on the pulse I must say, not just this post but all the correspondence relating to safety. Lets hope that the senators do see through this smokey haze or should I say fog and act in the interest of Australian air safety, Shit I guess I should also say, would they feel safe flying with an airline on a regular basis as they do with a 200hr wet behind the ears cadet ? I THINK NOT would you ?

Keep up the great work.
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Old 4th Mar 2011, 13:34
  #253 (permalink)  
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The experienced GA pilot route has worked in the past only because the airline has trained out the bad habits that many have picked up along the way and I have seen some appalling examples of poor discipline and flying practices in the bush
One needs to be careful of generalising when you say "the airline has trained out the bad habits that many (GA) pilots have picked up along the way."

I have flown with some bloody awful airline pilots and bloody dodgy RAAF pilots too and some excellent ones. I am never quite sure exactly what these "bad habits" are by general aviation pilots. In any large operation be it airline or GA, out of any say 10 pilots you will often find two very good pilots - two in the well below average category - and the rest normal average pilots. I have watched airliners taxiing far too fast for the circumstances and with inevitable hot brakes. Maybe the captain was a former GA pilot with a bad habit? Obviously that bad habit wasn't trained out of him. I have seen some really shaky crosswind landings in Boeings. Wonder why those pilots haven't got that bad habit, too, trained out of them. On the other side of the coin I have seen some superb crosswind landings done by skillful general aviation pilots.

I simply don't buy the tired old argument that because one is a general aviation pilots you are full of bad habits. It is a load of bollocks. Is a REX cadet first officer taught at the much vaunted elite REX Wagga training school have any more skills that his GA brother brought up on the other side of the tracks? Yes he has - but only at monitoring an automatic pilot in a Saab from 500 ft after lift off to 200 feet on final. Let's face it -that doesn't require pilot skills.
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Old 4th Mar 2011, 13:53
  #254 (permalink)  
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That Kelpie is just like a dog with a bone!

Keep up the good work...
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Old 4th Mar 2011, 19:34
  #255 (permalink)  
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World's smartest Dawg!
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Old 4th Mar 2011, 21:29
  #256 (permalink)  
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No air-time from Virgin boss John Borghetti | Herald Sun

Geoff Easdown From: Herald Sun March 06, 2011 12:00AM

VIRGIN Blue chief John Borghetti can expect an angry grilling from senators when he gives evidence to their high-level committee on pilot training and airline safety later this month.

Mr Borghetti offended key committee members by opting to be on a flight last Friday rather than appear before a specially convened committee hearing at which evidence was being tabled from the heads of Australia's three major airlines.

Both Mr Borghetti's absence and the no-show of Virgin's chief pilot Sean Donohue, sparked an angry outburst from one senator who asked whether Virgin was taking a serious approach to air safety.

Independent Senator Nick Xenophon also described as "an insult" the brevity of Virgin's two-page submission.

"Please take this back, Mr Borghetti, I think a two-page submission is an insult to the committee and to the travelling public," he told two lower-ranked executives who attended the hearing in place of the CEO and Capt Donohue - who was called away to fly to earthquake-devastated Christchurch.

Senator Xenophon this week fired off a 16-page question sheet - aimed largely at Qantas and its low-cost offshoot Jetstar - after being dissatisfied with answers at the inquiry.

Virgin Blue corporate affairs head Danielle Keighery told BusinessDaily last night Mr Borghetti was committed to flying to the Middle East last week to host the launch of the airline's Australia-Abu Dhabi service.

She said the committee was advised of the clash but no new dates were offered.

"If you look at the actual inquiry two things I would say is that they were very technical issues that were being discussed and it is a very unusual practice for a CEO to go," she said.

Senior Liberal senator Bill Heffernan, who chairs the committee, agreed that some senators were concerned that they could not get detailed answers from the two Virgin Blue executives who appeared.

Mr Borghetti, Qantas CEO Alan Joyce, Jetstar Group chief Bruce Buchanan are to be recalled when the hearings resume on March 19 because of fresh information given to the committee.

The matters include an incident where a Jetstar A320 aircraft came within 11.5m of the ground during a missed approach at Tullamarine on July 21, 2007.
Unless there has been some strange changes at Virgin Sean Donohue is not the Chief Pilot. His title is "Group Executive - Operations". I don't think Airlines have "Chief Pilots" these days. They are called Head of Flight Operations from memory. I'm generally wrong half the time though!

Does anybody know where I can view the last hearing? Is there a video file available?
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Old 4th Mar 2011, 23:26
  #257 (permalink)  
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Spot on Mr Hat

Mr Donohue is not the Chief pilot but the 2IC of the Airline and as far as his ability to represent the airline on flight safety matters, if you read his biography (just Google him), he holds the rare distinction of being the only non-pilot to hold the position of Senior Vice President Flight Operations (and On-Board Services) for United Airlines. So I suggest the Herald Sun brush up on their facts. - Press release detail

Still, 2 pages? Really! Even if Senator H. can't control his aspirations as an amatuer comedian , it is a fairly high level forum and it is a serious (deadly) subject.
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Old 4th Mar 2011, 23:39
  #258 (permalink)  
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Mr Hat

There is no link to last Friday's hearing, they are simply not available but if you have a hunt around on the web broadcasting area of the aph website you will find a number and email you can use to obtain (purchase I think) a copy.

Certainly would be worth a few dollars I think.

More to Follow

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Old 5th Mar 2011, 02:05
  #259 (permalink)  
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The transcripts are sent to the parties concerned to check for errors so they would eventually be available on the Senate website.

I'm surprised that Borghetti hasn't learnt the lessons from Dixon that you need to have the pollies on side if you want favourable considerations for your business at some point in the future.
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Old 5th Mar 2011, 12:16
  #260 (permalink)  
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The Kelpie, I think we are in broad agreement but where we differ is that I don't think there will be an overabundance of people wanting to be airline pilots in the future for all the reasons that you and others have posted.

Nor do I think it is a good thing for young aspirants to go off and get a mountain of debt. I really think that the airline cadet pilot scheme as offered by the better overseas airlines (or the original QANTAS scheme) is preferable where there is a shortage of applicants.

Centaurus, yes my comments were a generalisation and you have far more experience and knowledge of the airline industry than I but my comments were based on a conversation I had with a senior QANTAS C & T captain. He was explaining the reason why QANTAS recruited pilots with lower experience levels than other Australian airlines.
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