Merged: Senate Inquiry
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Type Experience on Commencement of Line Training
Snafu,
I am sure I misread your post, but many people beginning line training these days have zero hours of actual flight time in that type and as little as 16 hours manipulating and 16 hours supporting in the simulator.
That they may start with only 220-230 flight hours in light aircraft of minimal relevance to the type in which they are going to be carrying passengers is something that AJ and Boston Bruce will strenuously avoid admitting on record. They, including MR, showed an uncanny ability to avoid answering direct questions and managed to obfuscate with relative ease - pretty tough on non-technical Senators faced with a miniscule 45 minute window to expose the ills of the Empire!
It will be interesting to watch whethered they get skewered on friday 18 Mar 11...
Stay Alive,
I am sure I misread your post, but many people beginning line training these days have zero hours of actual flight time in that type and as little as 16 hours manipulating and 16 hours supporting in the simulator.
That they may start with only 220-230 flight hours in light aircraft of minimal relevance to the type in which they are going to be carrying passengers is something that AJ and Boston Bruce will strenuously avoid admitting on record. They, including MR, showed an uncanny ability to avoid answering direct questions and managed to obfuscate with relative ease - pretty tough on non-technical Senators faced with a miniscule 45 minute window to expose the ills of the Empire!
It will be interesting to watch whethered they get skewered on friday 18 Mar 11...
Stay Alive,
Last edited by 4dogs; 8th Mar 2011 at 16:05.
My bad
4dogs Most airlines that operate you larger (embraer size and bigger) RPT don't run base training or any training in the real aircraft without pax if the have level 5+ sims. Not required. Admittedly it was interesting having pax onboard on my first landing in a 737 and I had a fair bit more than 200 hours.
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Foreign pilots or keen young Australians wanting to fulfill their dream?
When this is over that's who you'll see in the right seat.
Yes, we have plenty of pilots, you say. Where were they all 3 years ago? Situation is only going to get worse if this goes through.
Where are all these low time pilot Incidents?
Where are the facts (human factors) that low time ICUS pilots are unsafe?
Expanded CRM and increased frequency scenario simex for low time pilots, in my opinion.
I think the REX statement about GA contamination was miss interpreted. From their point of view, a glass empty is better than a glass nearly full.
Management prefer it throughout industries that have frequent staff turnover.
Down and clear.
When this is over that's who you'll see in the right seat.
Yes, we have plenty of pilots, you say. Where were they all 3 years ago? Situation is only going to get worse if this goes through.
Where are all these low time pilot Incidents?
Where are the facts (human factors) that low time ICUS pilots are unsafe?
Expanded CRM and increased frequency scenario simex for low time pilots, in my opinion.
I think the REX statement about GA contamination was miss interpreted. From their point of view, a glass empty is better than a glass nearly full.
Management prefer it throughout industries that have frequent staff turnover.
Down and clear.
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Buildntime,
I agree, there is no evidence whatsoever that 'low time' equals dangerous. I have said it many times before and will say it again, cadets can and do make very good airline pilots. I have been involved in a cadet scheme for a legacy carrier overseas, they take 180 hour pilots out of flying school and then give them a Jet Orientation Course in the simulator before typerating them and clearing them to line with around 250 hours tt onto A320's, 737's, 757's and 767's. The 'cadet' would do the J.O.C. with either Oxford Aviation in the UK or CTC just as the Jetstar Cadets are doing. This legacy carrier's training system is no better or worse than that of Jetstar and they are regarded as one of the safest in the world.
What this inquiry should be about is fatigue, terms and conditions and regulatory oversight!! The thing that killed everyone onboard that DCH-8 in Buffalo was not crew inexperience (both had over 1,500 hours) it was fatigue!! Returning from a duty at 3am in the morning to then report at 13.30 that same day for a 4 sector day shouldn't be allowed. Pilots should not have to 'pay' for their training, this should be legislated against, bonding pilots is acceptable to ensure a return for investment is fine but no money should be taken from the pilot. Companies should have to compensate all pilots for medicals, licences, uniforms, manuals etc
Finally CASA should get a bloodly bullet!! Why do they seem to give 'exemptions' to the airlines so willingly, why were flight time limitations relaxed to allow high capacity low cost operators to work pilots for longer?? Why did CASA give an exemption to allow operators to fly with one less Cabin Crew Member than legislated for, why are all the reductions in safety i.e. reduction of minimum training hours, increase in duty hours all approved by CASA...... Because they are an extension of airline management and have become useless in their regulatory role. Boston Bruce was right in his testimony about the fact that Alteon doesn't even use A320 experienced instructors when he said 'CASA approves the training organisation'. CASA needs a good slap!! Who approved the Jetstar Cadet Scheme.... CASA, why are the cadets not flying in New Zealand, because the New Zealand CAA said 'no-way' not until they have 500 hours rpt, did CASA enforce such a limit.. NO, they approved the Cadet scheme.
Rant over.
I agree, there is no evidence whatsoever that 'low time' equals dangerous. I have said it many times before and will say it again, cadets can and do make very good airline pilots. I have been involved in a cadet scheme for a legacy carrier overseas, they take 180 hour pilots out of flying school and then give them a Jet Orientation Course in the simulator before typerating them and clearing them to line with around 250 hours tt onto A320's, 737's, 757's and 767's. The 'cadet' would do the J.O.C. with either Oxford Aviation in the UK or CTC just as the Jetstar Cadets are doing. This legacy carrier's training system is no better or worse than that of Jetstar and they are regarded as one of the safest in the world.
What this inquiry should be about is fatigue, terms and conditions and regulatory oversight!! The thing that killed everyone onboard that DCH-8 in Buffalo was not crew inexperience (both had over 1,500 hours) it was fatigue!! Returning from a duty at 3am in the morning to then report at 13.30 that same day for a 4 sector day shouldn't be allowed. Pilots should not have to 'pay' for their training, this should be legislated against, bonding pilots is acceptable to ensure a return for investment is fine but no money should be taken from the pilot. Companies should have to compensate all pilots for medicals, licences, uniforms, manuals etc
Finally CASA should get a bloodly bullet!! Why do they seem to give 'exemptions' to the airlines so willingly, why were flight time limitations relaxed to allow high capacity low cost operators to work pilots for longer?? Why did CASA give an exemption to allow operators to fly with one less Cabin Crew Member than legislated for, why are all the reductions in safety i.e. reduction of minimum training hours, increase in duty hours all approved by CASA...... Because they are an extension of airline management and have become useless in their regulatory role. Boston Bruce was right in his testimony about the fact that Alteon doesn't even use A320 experienced instructors when he said 'CASA approves the training organisation'. CASA needs a good slap!! Who approved the Jetstar Cadet Scheme.... CASA, why are the cadets not flying in New Zealand, because the New Zealand CAA said 'no-way' not until they have 500 hours rpt, did CASA enforce such a limit.. NO, they approved the Cadet scheme.
Rant over.
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Finally CASA should get a bloodly bullet!! Why do they seem to give 'exemptions' to the airlines so willingly, why were flight time limitations relaxed to allow high capacity low cost operators to work pilots for longer?? Why did CASA give an exemption to allow operators to fly with one less Cabin Crew Member than legislated for, why are all the reductions in safety i.e. reduction of minimum training hours, increase in duty hours all approved by CASA...... Because they are an extension of airline management and have become useless in their regulatory role. Boston Bruce was right in his testimony about the fact that Alteon doesn't even use A320 experienced instructors when he said 'CASA approves the training organisation'. CASA needs a good slap!! Who approved the Jetstar Cadet Scheme.... CASA, why are the cadets not flying in New Zealand, because the New Zealand CAA said 'no-way' not until they have 500 hours rpt, did CASA enforce such a limit.. NO, they approved the Cadet scheme.
Send the email and it may prompt the good Senator to ask CASA the questions when they are recalled before the committee next week.
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The Kelpie
Ps Rumour has it JQ Cadets grounded UFN.
Last edited by The Kelpie; 8th Mar 2011 at 21:38.
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What this inquiry should be about is fatigue, terms and conditions and regulatory oversight!! The thing that killed everyone onboard that DCH-8 in Buffalo was not crew inexperience (both had over 1,500 hours) it was fatigue!! Returning from a duty at 3am in the morning to then report at 13.30 that same day for a 4 sector day shouldn't be allowed. Pilots should not have to 'pay' for their training, this should be legislated against, bonding pilots is acceptable to ensure a return for investment is fine but no money should be taken from the pilot. Companies should have to compensate all pilots for medicals, licences, uniforms, manuals etc
Finally CASA should get a bloodly bullet!! Why do they seem to give 'exemptions' to the airlines so willingly, why were flight time limitations relaxed to allow high capacity low cost operators to work pilots for longer?? Why did CASA give an exemption to allow operators to fly with one less Cabin Crew Member than legislated for, why are all the reductions in safety i.e. reduction of minimum training hours, increase in duty hours all approved by CASA...... Because they are an extension of airline management and have become useless in their regulatory role. Boston Bruce was right in his testimony about the fact that Alteon doesn't even use A320 experienced instructors when he said 'CASA approves the training organisation'. CASA needs a good slap!! Who approved the Jetstar Cadet Scheme.... CASA, why are the cadets not flying in New Zealand, because the New Zealand CAA said 'no-way' not until they have 500 hours rpt, did CASA enforce such a limit.. NO, they approved the Cadet scheme.
Finally CASA should get a bloodly bullet!! Why do they seem to give 'exemptions' to the airlines so willingly, why were flight time limitations relaxed to allow high capacity low cost operators to work pilots for longer?? Why did CASA give an exemption to allow operators to fly with one less Cabin Crew Member than legislated for, why are all the reductions in safety i.e. reduction of minimum training hours, increase in duty hours all approved by CASA...... Because they are an extension of airline management and have become useless in their regulatory role. Boston Bruce was right in his testimony about the fact that Alteon doesn't even use A320 experienced instructors when he said 'CASA approves the training organisation'. CASA needs a good slap!! Who approved the Jetstar Cadet Scheme.... CASA, why are the cadets not flying in New Zealand, because the New Zealand CAA said 'no-way' not until they have 500 hours rpt, did CASA enforce such a limit.. NO, they approved the Cadet scheme.
Senator X. I hope you are looking..............
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An interesting comment BB made in the senate Inquiry was that the New Zealand based cadets would be earning $200k in 6 years.
So either:
1. He was talking sh*t to the senators to make it appear as though the wage growth was impressive as an J* NZ F/O.
or
2. That the cadets would obtain commands within 6 years with the appropriate increase in pay.
So, unless it was Bu!!sh*t. BB's indicating all the growth will be in the overseas based operations.
I find it interesting that BB's strategy is forecasting growth 6 years down the track.
As mainline couldn't tell you what was happening over the next 12 months until the new flying program is realised. (due out this month)
I've heard repeatedly recently, that until the mainline flying program is realeased there is no indication of recruitment or promotions within mainline for the subsequent 12 months. (If there will be any at all)
So, how can J* NZ crystal ball it six years down the track! Unless of course it's the only growth strategy & their not letting us in on the secret.
So either:
1. He was talking sh*t to the senators to make it appear as though the wage growth was impressive as an J* NZ F/O.
or
2. That the cadets would obtain commands within 6 years with the appropriate increase in pay.
So, unless it was Bu!!sh*t. BB's indicating all the growth will be in the overseas based operations.
I find it interesting that BB's strategy is forecasting growth 6 years down the track.
As mainline couldn't tell you what was happening over the next 12 months until the new flying program is realised. (due out this month)
I've heard repeatedly recently, that until the mainline flying program is realeased there is no indication of recruitment or promotions within mainline for the subsequent 12 months. (If there will be any at all)
So, how can J* NZ crystal ball it six years down the track! Unless of course it's the only growth strategy & their not letting us in on the secret.
An interesting comment BB made in the senate Inquiry was that the New Zealand based cadets would be earning $200k in 6 years.
1. He was talking sh*t to the senators to make it appear as though the wage growth was impressive as an J* NZ F/O.
or
2. That the cadets would obtain commands within 6 years with the appropriate increase in pay.
So, unless it was Bu!!sh*t. BB's indicating all the growth will be in the overseas based operations.
or
2. That the cadets would obtain commands within 6 years with the appropriate increase in pay.
So, unless it was Bu!!sh*t. BB's indicating all the growth will be in the overseas based operations.
3. their business plan
has the cadets leaving Jokestar after six years for greener pastures where they can earn $200k. Fiddling with the truth
Master Caution, BB said a cadet may earn $200K in six years because his misguided belief and supportive spin is that these cadets may have commands in six years - such is the woeful level of understanding these people have of real operational safety matters. They have never experienced the smoking hole - they rely on their spreadsheets, risk laden advice from bonus-seeking staff, and a lot of hope. Disgraceful.
Artificial Horizon's rant is spot on - Fatigue will be the killer as they stretch our duty times, increase crew pressure to extend beyond roster times, and require us to operate back home fatigued (then drive home) to save them money and allow intermediate base closures. CASA exemptions are a sham. The relationships between the regulator and airline management need a rocket.
Artificial Horizon's rant is spot on - Fatigue will be the killer as they stretch our duty times, increase crew pressure to extend beyond roster times, and require us to operate back home fatigued (then drive home) to save them money and allow intermediate base closures. CASA exemptions are a sham. The relationships between the regulator and airline management need a rocket.
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Xcel
you may be closer to the truth than you think as there seemed to be a lot of flitting between currencies in his evidence.
Consider this:
Year 1 - 42,000NZD
Year 2 - 42,000NZD
Year 3 - 42,000NZD
Year 4 - 54,000NZD
Year 5 - 54,000NZD
Year 6 - 54,000NZD
Total - 288,000NZD
Multiply by current exchange = $211,000AUD over 6 years
......and then a jump from 54,000NZD to $200,000 (NZD/AUD??) ...I don't think so!!!
BINGO
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the Kelpie
you may be closer to the truth than you think as there seemed to be a lot of flitting between currencies in his evidence.
Consider this:
Year 1 - 42,000NZD
Year 2 - 42,000NZD
Year 3 - 42,000NZD
Year 4 - 54,000NZD
Year 5 - 54,000NZD
Year 6 - 54,000NZD
Total - 288,000NZD
Multiply by current exchange = $211,000AUD over 6 years
......and then a jump from 54,000NZD to $200,000 (NZD/AUD??) ...I don't think so!!!
BINGO
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the Kelpie
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BB - Our cadets in their first year are earning $67,000 a year, and they can expect after six years that they could be earning up to $200,000 a year.
But they may have no intention of paying this figure.
MC
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Here is another Bruce-ism
The conditions are fairly good. That is why, when we advertised for 80 cadet positions, we had 4,800 applications.
...and do you know why you got that many applicants, all willing to pay $300 for selection plus flights, accomodation etc.?
Because you did not tell anyone that they would be employed in New Zealand on effectively casual contract with absolutely pitful salaries with conditions of employment that belong in a bygone era. The cadets that did get in were only given access to all these details on their first day at Oxford to start training. Some had the balls to pull out at that stage after resigning jobs rather than subject themselves to 6 years of poverty, misery and uncertainty.
In my experience this is extremely shonky practice!!
.....and don't think you are off the hook Oxford because you were the ones running this circus on behalf of Jetstar. Shonky practice that does not fit in with the professional image you tried to peddle to the senator last Friday Mr Petteford. Oxford are only interested in drawing down the FEE HELP loans!
In the UK, Oxford have been significantly affected by the inability for potential customers (a term I use loosely) to obtain Financial funding to finance the course due to the GFC and the unwillingness of the banks to see pilot training as a sound investment. Petteford must have thought all his Christmas's had come at once when he learned that the Australian Government are able to fund 86k of un-means-tested funding to anyone with an oz passport. The one off FEE HELP fee has now been increased to 25% so a drawdown of 86k means an instand debt of $107,500 increasing each year with the CPI.
I call on Swinburne University to distance themselves from this debarcle in the name of maintaining your respected status in Australia. Oxford are using you and this is proved by the fact that the Jetstar Asia cadet Programme does not feature you at all because the singaporean applicants are not eligible for FEE HELP
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The Kelpie
Last edited by The Kelpie; 9th Mar 2011 at 02:19.
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Jetstar launches cadet pilot scheme | Australian Aviation Magazine
Not to mention the "anticipated" 15,200 other people BB thought would apply but didn't !
Not to mention the "anticipated" 15,200 other people BB thought would apply but didn't !
I see many parallels between this inquiry and the one regarding milk prices (not the least of which is that Senator X is pushing both).
There has been lots of rhetoric about the poor farmers (my first job was in the dairy industry, and I am very familiar with their plight), with many statements from concerned members of the public, but at the end of the day everybody (including senators I suspect) wants cheap milk. The fact that in future this may be imported from China or elsewhere, and lack the quality controls that we have here does not seem to stir a national revolt.
One interview I heard on the ABC yesterday suggested that Queensland dairy farmers should just withhold their product, but the interviewee responded that Victorian producers would quickly replace them as their is no unity amongst producers when faced with economic reality.
Very similar story.............
There has been lots of rhetoric about the poor farmers (my first job was in the dairy industry, and I am very familiar with their plight), with many statements from concerned members of the public, but at the end of the day everybody (including senators I suspect) wants cheap milk. The fact that in future this may be imported from China or elsewhere, and lack the quality controls that we have here does not seem to stir a national revolt.
One interview I heard on the ABC yesterday suggested that Queensland dairy farmers should just withhold their product, but the interviewee responded that Victorian producers would quickly replace them as their is no unity amongst producers when faced with economic reality.
Very similar story.............
